^ Statements by and about Julian
Don't know if these belong here.
Have different excerpts on Greece and Rome here in a text file that are marked as coming from christianism.com (possibly some come from elsewhere). Though none of this is really stored in any organised form, have put them into some makeshift categories for the purposes of posting here.
Thoughts on death and suicide in Rome and Greece:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->"We do not fear death, but the thought [mental horror vacui? (see 2897-2898)] of death" (Lucius Annaeus Seneca, Letters, 63).
"Death is such that, like birth, it is a mystery of nature" (Marcus Aurelius, Meditations, c. 170).<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd--><!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->[footnote] "2This tendency to suicide began with the cynics, one of whose most noted disciples, Diogenes, caused his death by suffocation (Diogenes Laert, Life of Diogenes, xi.), and Stilpo, his favorite disciple, also destroyed himself, as did also his colleagues Onesicratus, Metrocles, and Menippus. Demonax, a cynic, also ended his life because he had outlived authority. Peregrinus, of the same school, burnt himself alive.
The stoic heirs of the cynic school were the first to erect suicide into a dogma, and create an enthusiasm for it. Many stoics committed suicide under circumstances which show how little regard they had for life. Their founder, Zeno, took his own life. His successor, Cleanthes, showed an equal contempt for life. Diodorus cut his throat, Cassius fell by his own dagger, Pomponius Atticus, Cicero's friend, starved himself to death. Nearly all of these crimes were committed to escape some real or imaginary evil, mostly the dread of imperial vengeance; many that their estates might be saved to their heirs, a provision of Roman law.--Cf. Suicide, Studies on its Philosophy, Causes, and Prevention, by James J. O'Dea, M.D. (New York, 1882), p. 50, etc." [156]. [See: Appendix VII, 784 (van Hooff)]. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->[footnote (not referenced above)] '1Every true disciple of the Stoa [see 1240-1241] believed that it was his privilege to embrace death "when no higher duties bound him to life," and in his morality and high sense of honor the stoic is in advance of all his contemporaries and has been from the establishment of his philosophy to the present. "To a reasonable creature," says Epictetus [c. 55 - c. 135 C.E.], "that alone is insupportable which is unreasonable; but everything reasonable may be supported. See how the Spartans bear whipping after they have reduced it to reason. Hanging is not insupportable; for as soon as a man has taken it into his head that it is reasonable, he goes and hangs himself." "God be thanked," says Seneca [c. 4 B.C.E. - 65 C.E.], "that no one can be forced to live longer than he desires." Among all the stoics, whether Greek or Roman, Seneca was preeminent as an advocate of suicide. He did not content himself with reserving it for desperate emergencies; he advised it for almost any evil. "Does life please you," he says, "live on."
Epictetus could feel no sympathy with a life full of murmurings. "Either live contentedly," said he, "or be gone; at all events, don't live a life of peevish complainings. The door is open; go if you do not wish to suffer, but if you choose to stay, don't complain."
<b>Marcus Aurelius [Emperor 161 - 180 (121 - 180)] declared "that a man was the arbiter of his own life."</b> Cicero is made the exponent of the sentiment, "To depart out of this life when it no longer pleases." Cato approved of suicide as a means of escaping personal humiliation and enhancing personal dignity. The elder Pliny vaunted man's superiority to the gods in that he may die when it pleases him.
Themistocles [c. 524 - c. 460 B.C.E.] committed suicide, as did Diogenes, Menedemus (successor of Stilpo), Onesicratus, Metrocles, Menippus, Italicus Demonax, Perigrinus, Diodorus, and Cassius.--Suicide, Studies on its Philosophy, Causes, etc., by James O'Dea, M.D. (New York, 1882), p. 30.' [301-302].
[See: Appendix VII, 784 (van Hooff)].<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Ouch. OK, now let's not overdo it. How did this contribute to my having read somewhere the factbite that the avg lifespan of the Roman male was about 32 or was it 34... Don't know the period of Roman history to which this estimate applied, though.
Seneca's reasoning and that of Epictetus I do understand. Epictetus' is in fact quite memorable "If you choose to stay, don't complain". <!--emo&
--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo--> Have to remember that one.
Never did understand christians terrorising everyone else when it came to suicide (isn't suicide considered a cardinal 'sin' or something), all while taking it upon themselves to murder heretics and heathens.
Personal opinion, based on the Japanese saying(?) "Only Death Cures Stupidity", is that all terrorists should kill themselves (without taking innocents along for the ride, of course). One could therefore argue - and quite reasonably so - that, in certain circumstances at least, I actively <i>encourage</i> suicide.
Don't see why good people had to go about taking their own lives, though. For what? So they can leave the world to villains? 'Tis why we're all in this mess in the first place: useful people playing fast and reckless with their lives. If people <i>will</i> choose to go, why not take one or more terrorist villains with them? Be useful in life <i>and</i> in dying.
Don't know if these belong here.
Have different excerpts on Greece and Rome here in a text file that are marked as coming from christianism.com (possibly some come from elsewhere). Though none of this is really stored in any organised form, have put them into some makeshift categories for the purposes of posting here.
Thoughts on death and suicide in Rome and Greece:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->"We do not fear death, but the thought [mental horror vacui? (see 2897-2898)] of death" (Lucius Annaeus Seneca, Letters, 63).
"Death is such that, like birth, it is a mystery of nature" (Marcus Aurelius, Meditations, c. 170).<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd--><!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->[footnote] "2This tendency to suicide began with the cynics, one of whose most noted disciples, Diogenes, caused his death by suffocation (Diogenes Laert, Life of Diogenes, xi.), and Stilpo, his favorite disciple, also destroyed himself, as did also his colleagues Onesicratus, Metrocles, and Menippus. Demonax, a cynic, also ended his life because he had outlived authority. Peregrinus, of the same school, burnt himself alive.
The stoic heirs of the cynic school were the first to erect suicide into a dogma, and create an enthusiasm for it. Many stoics committed suicide under circumstances which show how little regard they had for life. Their founder, Zeno, took his own life. His successor, Cleanthes, showed an equal contempt for life. Diodorus cut his throat, Cassius fell by his own dagger, Pomponius Atticus, Cicero's friend, starved himself to death. Nearly all of these crimes were committed to escape some real or imaginary evil, mostly the dread of imperial vengeance; many that their estates might be saved to their heirs, a provision of Roman law.--Cf. Suicide, Studies on its Philosophy, Causes, and Prevention, by James J. O'Dea, M.D. (New York, 1882), p. 50, etc." [156]. [See: Appendix VII, 784 (van Hooff)]. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->[footnote (not referenced above)] '1Every true disciple of the Stoa [see 1240-1241] believed that it was his privilege to embrace death "when no higher duties bound him to life," and in his morality and high sense of honor the stoic is in advance of all his contemporaries and has been from the establishment of his philosophy to the present. "To a reasonable creature," says Epictetus [c. 55 - c. 135 C.E.], "that alone is insupportable which is unreasonable; but everything reasonable may be supported. See how the Spartans bear whipping after they have reduced it to reason. Hanging is not insupportable; for as soon as a man has taken it into his head that it is reasonable, he goes and hangs himself." "God be thanked," says Seneca [c. 4 B.C.E. - 65 C.E.], "that no one can be forced to live longer than he desires." Among all the stoics, whether Greek or Roman, Seneca was preeminent as an advocate of suicide. He did not content himself with reserving it for desperate emergencies; he advised it for almost any evil. "Does life please you," he says, "live on."
Epictetus could feel no sympathy with a life full of murmurings. "Either live contentedly," said he, "or be gone; at all events, don't live a life of peevish complainings. The door is open; go if you do not wish to suffer, but if you choose to stay, don't complain."
<b>Marcus Aurelius [Emperor 161 - 180 (121 - 180)] declared "that a man was the arbiter of his own life."</b> Cicero is made the exponent of the sentiment, "To depart out of this life when it no longer pleases." Cato approved of suicide as a means of escaping personal humiliation and enhancing personal dignity. The elder Pliny vaunted man's superiority to the gods in that he may die when it pleases him.
Themistocles [c. 524 - c. 460 B.C.E.] committed suicide, as did Diogenes, Menedemus (successor of Stilpo), Onesicratus, Metrocles, Menippus, Italicus Demonax, Perigrinus, Diodorus, and Cassius.--Suicide, Studies on its Philosophy, Causes, etc., by James O'Dea, M.D. (New York, 1882), p. 30.' [301-302].
[See: Appendix VII, 784 (van Hooff)].<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Ouch. OK, now let's not overdo it. How did this contribute to my having read somewhere the factbite that the avg lifespan of the Roman male was about 32 or was it 34... Don't know the period of Roman history to which this estimate applied, though.
Seneca's reasoning and that of Epictetus I do understand. Epictetus' is in fact quite memorable "If you choose to stay, don't complain". <!--emo&
--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo--> Have to remember that one.Never did understand christians terrorising everyone else when it came to suicide (isn't suicide considered a cardinal 'sin' or something), all while taking it upon themselves to murder heretics and heathens.
Personal opinion, based on the Japanese saying(?) "Only Death Cures Stupidity", is that all terrorists should kill themselves (without taking innocents along for the ride, of course). One could therefore argue - and quite reasonably so - that, in certain circumstances at least, I actively <i>encourage</i> suicide.
Don't see why good people had to go about taking their own lives, though. For what? So they can leave the world to villains? 'Tis why we're all in this mess in the first place: useful people playing fast and reckless with their lives. If people <i>will</i> choose to go, why not take one or more terrorist villains with them? Be useful in life <i>and</i> in dying.