11-07-2004, 12:08 AM
Hello Rajesh ji, I am very happy to hear that you have begun your Swadyaya (study of the Self.) Initially, the concepts will be a bit confusing. This is mainly because we are not exposed to the terminilogy in the translations (or int he original scriptures) in our day-to-day life. But by constant reading, listening, and reflecting on the meaning, it will dawn upon you in due course of time. I try and spend 4 hours a day or about 30 hours a week on Atma Vichara (as I have nothing better to do.) From you posts, I gather that you have already watched the Ramayana and the Mahabaratha. (I think I had posted this link a while ago, yet) If you feel like reading the epics in english check out http://www.switzerinstrument.com/Rajaji-Original/ for Ramayana and Mahabaratha.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--> 1. Is mind part of the person or self ? <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The mind is not the person. The manomaya kosa (the sheath of the mind) is only another concept that the jeeva identifies with, and calls it "my mind is not function" or "my mind is at peace" etc. At the cosmic level, mind is only a cocnept. The yogasutras of Patanjali called the mind a medium with five types of modification (vritthis.)
Vidyaranya's Panchadasi (13:20-27) reveals of Vasista's teachings to Rama - in the Yogavaasista. Here, he says, "O Rama, <b>when the all-pervasive, eternal and infinite Self assumes the power of cognition, we call it the mind.</b> O Prince, first the mind arises, then the notion of bondage and release and then the universe consisting of many worlds. Thus all this manifestation has been fixed or settled (in human minds), like the tales told to amuse children."
To amuse a child, O mighty one, the nurse relates some beautiful story: "Once upon a time there were three handsome princes. Two of them were never born and the third was never even conceived in his motherâs womb. They lived righteously in a city which never existed. These holy princes came out of their city of non-existence and while roaming saw trees, laden with fruits, growing in the sky. Then the three princes, my child, went to a city which was yet to be built and lived there happily, passing their time in games and hunting." "O Rama, the nurse thus narrated the beautiful children's tale. The child too through want of discrimination believed it to be true. Thus to those who have no discrimination the world appears to be real like the tale repeated to the child.
To make things clear, here is an exercise for you to try at home. Spend half hour a day and do the following:
Sit silently, and observe the thoughts that come to your mind. Do not stop the thoughts, but do not contribute to them. Just observe silently. All the while, be aware of your breathing. So you have two tasks..
1) Observe the thoughts silently without stopping or contributing to it.
2) Be aware of your breathing in and out.
Do not worry about the clock, do not worry about other sounds. With practise it will easily be achieveable. I have tried it in a busy marketplace, and on a mountaintop and still was able to achieve results.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--> 2. Who realises - person or self ? Self cannot realize self and person cannot realise self since at the time of realization the person wont exist ? Unless if there is a third entity besides a person and self (mind, internal organ, lets say) but then what is that third entity - is that real or unreal ? Moreover if the effect (the person) is but just self then how can self realise self ? <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I shall take the example of the ten travellers. They knew that they were a party of 10. Once there were 10 travellers who were crossing a river. After the river was crossed, they started counting themselved. Each time a person counted he would leave himself out, and thus counted only nine. They begain wailing thinking that one of them was lost to the river. A holy man came nearby and asked a man to count again. When the man counted nine, the holy man said "YOU ARE THE TENTH ONE." and instantly the tenth man realized that he was the tenth person. The same way, by hearing to the Mahavakyaslike "Tath Thvam Asi" (YOU ARE THAT), there will be instant realization. Here you do not need a third entity to realize yourself. The Mind will be still, and the SELF will remain in it's own state. This state is called realization. It is not Self-perception. (You need a mind/intellect to perceive, but not to relalize.)
Hope that makes sense.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--> 3. If one doesnt realise then one still remains Brahman and if one doesnt realise one still remains Brahman then why should one realise ? For if one doesnt realise the sufferings that happen are also not real then why try to eradicate something that is not real ? The avidya which is beginningless is going to remain regardless, right ? Then why remove avidya ?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Brahman is Brahman irrespective of space, time or whether the Jiva realizes or not. True. The objective of realizing is purely owing to two things. 1) The accumulated result of work from previous-births (Prarabdha), and 2) The Grace of the Lord (Ishwara Anugraham.) The question of why we should realize will remain only till you see the PARAM, once it has been seen, this question will drop off. It is like asking what do I get by breathing.. you do not gain anything, but if you do not breathe, you have a lot to lose.
Avidya is said to be beginningless because the word beginning denotes creation in a particular point in time. Avidya is the cause of time and space, and hence it cant' be classified as one with a Beginning. Also, Avidya is not a REAL entity. It does not exist in real. If it did, then Avidya cannot be ended with Knowledge. But our shastras say that Avidya ends with aquisition of Gnanam. To overcome Avidya, one needs to worship Sri Vidya. <!--emo&
--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--> Am I even on the right track boss ??<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You DEFINITELY are on the right track Rajesh ji. <i><b>Na hi kalyaanakrit kaschit, durgathim thaatha gachhathi. (BG 6:40)</b></i>
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--> 1. Is mind part of the person or self ? <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The mind is not the person. The manomaya kosa (the sheath of the mind) is only another concept that the jeeva identifies with, and calls it "my mind is not function" or "my mind is at peace" etc. At the cosmic level, mind is only a cocnept. The yogasutras of Patanjali called the mind a medium with five types of modification (vritthis.)
Vidyaranya's Panchadasi (13:20-27) reveals of Vasista's teachings to Rama - in the Yogavaasista. Here, he says, "O Rama, <b>when the all-pervasive, eternal and infinite Self assumes the power of cognition, we call it the mind.</b> O Prince, first the mind arises, then the notion of bondage and release and then the universe consisting of many worlds. Thus all this manifestation has been fixed or settled (in human minds), like the tales told to amuse children."
To amuse a child, O mighty one, the nurse relates some beautiful story: "Once upon a time there were three handsome princes. Two of them were never born and the third was never even conceived in his motherâs womb. They lived righteously in a city which never existed. These holy princes came out of their city of non-existence and while roaming saw trees, laden with fruits, growing in the sky. Then the three princes, my child, went to a city which was yet to be built and lived there happily, passing their time in games and hunting." "O Rama, the nurse thus narrated the beautiful children's tale. The child too through want of discrimination believed it to be true. Thus to those who have no discrimination the world appears to be real like the tale repeated to the child.
To make things clear, here is an exercise for you to try at home. Spend half hour a day and do the following:
Sit silently, and observe the thoughts that come to your mind. Do not stop the thoughts, but do not contribute to them. Just observe silently. All the while, be aware of your breathing. So you have two tasks..
1) Observe the thoughts silently without stopping or contributing to it.
2) Be aware of your breathing in and out.
Do not worry about the clock, do not worry about other sounds. With practise it will easily be achieveable. I have tried it in a busy marketplace, and on a mountaintop and still was able to achieve results.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--> 2. Who realises - person or self ? Self cannot realize self and person cannot realise self since at the time of realization the person wont exist ? Unless if there is a third entity besides a person and self (mind, internal organ, lets say) but then what is that third entity - is that real or unreal ? Moreover if the effect (the person) is but just self then how can self realise self ? <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I shall take the example of the ten travellers. They knew that they were a party of 10. Once there were 10 travellers who were crossing a river. After the river was crossed, they started counting themselved. Each time a person counted he would leave himself out, and thus counted only nine. They begain wailing thinking that one of them was lost to the river. A holy man came nearby and asked a man to count again. When the man counted nine, the holy man said "YOU ARE THE TENTH ONE." and instantly the tenth man realized that he was the tenth person. The same way, by hearing to the Mahavakyaslike "Tath Thvam Asi" (YOU ARE THAT), there will be instant realization. Here you do not need a third entity to realize yourself. The Mind will be still, and the SELF will remain in it's own state. This state is called realization. It is not Self-perception. (You need a mind/intellect to perceive, but not to relalize.)
Hope that makes sense.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--> 3. If one doesnt realise then one still remains Brahman and if one doesnt realise one still remains Brahman then why should one realise ? For if one doesnt realise the sufferings that happen are also not real then why try to eradicate something that is not real ? The avidya which is beginningless is going to remain regardless, right ? Then why remove avidya ?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Brahman is Brahman irrespective of space, time or whether the Jiva realizes or not. True. The objective of realizing is purely owing to two things. 1) The accumulated result of work from previous-births (Prarabdha), and 2) The Grace of the Lord (Ishwara Anugraham.) The question of why we should realize will remain only till you see the PARAM, once it has been seen, this question will drop off. It is like asking what do I get by breathing.. you do not gain anything, but if you do not breathe, you have a lot to lose.
Avidya is said to be beginningless because the word beginning denotes creation in a particular point in time. Avidya is the cause of time and space, and hence it cant' be classified as one with a Beginning. Also, Avidya is not a REAL entity. It does not exist in real. If it did, then Avidya cannot be ended with Knowledge. But our shastras say that Avidya ends with aquisition of Gnanam. To overcome Avidya, one needs to worship Sri Vidya. <!--emo&
--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo--><!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--> Am I even on the right track boss ??<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You DEFINITELY are on the right track Rajesh ji. <i><b>Na hi kalyaanakrit kaschit, durgathim thaatha gachhathi. (BG 6:40)</b></i>