^ Dhu's posts
Sorry to keep on about Rome and 25 December, but I forgot to mention something incidental. It may or may not have any bearing.
It's been many months since I watched it, but the BBC documentary Barbarians (with Terry Jones I think?) had an episode on Rome vs the Celts. While I had several faults to find in the series/points of disagreement (such as its trying to overcompensate for the unjust and unforgiveable Roman censureship/erasure of the Celts by slapping long-disproven accusations against Rome), there were informative things to be had in the series.
This particular episode was also about how during Julius Caesar's campaign against the Gauls of Bibracte etcetera, the Roman imperial propaganda against the Celts concealed what Julius was really after in his adversaries and their territory. Among his goals was the desire to obtain their means of keeping the date (calendar). The Celts were able to keep the year accurately, whereas Rome was so far off that the Romans were - am trying to recall what the presenter's phrase was - celebrating either "Harvest in winter" or "Saturnalia (timed close to winter solstice) in spring". People will have to watch Terryâs Barbarians themselves to confirm, but the point was that their timing had become very nonsensical.
Of course the populace must have been able tell when it was winter and when summer (weather and harvesting time being indicators for one), but the *official* dates for the festivities and holidays had been shifted due to the inaccuracy in Roman timekeeping.
The Celts, it was noted by the Roman intelligentsia, were dating their festival and other days accurately to the events of the heavens. And Julius would find out how and get a hold of their means. Far from being the savage barbarians that Rome officially projected them as, the point of the episode was that the Celts were quite capable in several respects (their Trading Empire spanned west to the British Isles and east into Anatolia where they had been harrying the Greeks for a while - Turkey's Ankara is apparently named for the Celtic Ancyra - while Rome's empire had for long remained confined to a smaller part of the Mediterranean). And the Celts moreover knew a few things the Romans didn't - the stone slab calendar used for timekeeping, for one. (Other things mentioned in the episode included the lack of gold in the Roman empire to mint coins at a time when there was a prodigious presence of Celtic coins: the Celts, it turned out, didn't merely acquire the gold from mercenary activities as was long believed thanks to Roman disinformation; rather they mined and minted it themselves, just as they smithied their own weapons. Just watch the documentary if possible, because some aspects were interesting, even if certain "conclusions" and "comments" in this and other episodes of this series were downright wrong.)
Eventually, Julius got his way: Gaul and the Continental Celtic trade empire was broken down, 2 million (was it?) "barbarians" persecuted, cut off from the main body and murdered. And the more accurate Julian calendar was instituted.
So until at least Julius Caesar's time, we don't know that the empire was able to *officially* celebrate any winter solstice festival at the correct time consistently.
Sorry to keep on about Rome and 25 December, but I forgot to mention something incidental. It may or may not have any bearing.
It's been many months since I watched it, but the BBC documentary Barbarians (with Terry Jones I think?) had an episode on Rome vs the Celts. While I had several faults to find in the series/points of disagreement (such as its trying to overcompensate for the unjust and unforgiveable Roman censureship/erasure of the Celts by slapping long-disproven accusations against Rome), there were informative things to be had in the series.
This particular episode was also about how during Julius Caesar's campaign against the Gauls of Bibracte etcetera, the Roman imperial propaganda against the Celts concealed what Julius was really after in his adversaries and their territory. Among his goals was the desire to obtain their means of keeping the date (calendar). The Celts were able to keep the year accurately, whereas Rome was so far off that the Romans were - am trying to recall what the presenter's phrase was - celebrating either "Harvest in winter" or "Saturnalia (timed close to winter solstice) in spring". People will have to watch Terryâs Barbarians themselves to confirm, but the point was that their timing had become very nonsensical.
Of course the populace must have been able tell when it was winter and when summer (weather and harvesting time being indicators for one), but the *official* dates for the festivities and holidays had been shifted due to the inaccuracy in Roman timekeeping.
The Celts, it was noted by the Roman intelligentsia, were dating their festival and other days accurately to the events of the heavens. And Julius would find out how and get a hold of their means. Far from being the savage barbarians that Rome officially projected them as, the point of the episode was that the Celts were quite capable in several respects (their Trading Empire spanned west to the British Isles and east into Anatolia where they had been harrying the Greeks for a while - Turkey's Ankara is apparently named for the Celtic Ancyra - while Rome's empire had for long remained confined to a smaller part of the Mediterranean). And the Celts moreover knew a few things the Romans didn't - the stone slab calendar used for timekeeping, for one. (Other things mentioned in the episode included the lack of gold in the Roman empire to mint coins at a time when there was a prodigious presence of Celtic coins: the Celts, it turned out, didn't merely acquire the gold from mercenary activities as was long believed thanks to Roman disinformation; rather they mined and minted it themselves, just as they smithied their own weapons. Just watch the documentary if possible, because some aspects were interesting, even if certain "conclusions" and "comments" in this and other episodes of this series were downright wrong.)
Eventually, Julius got his way: Gaul and the Continental Celtic trade empire was broken down, 2 million (was it?) "barbarians" persecuted, cut off from the main body and murdered. And the more accurate Julian calendar was instituted.
So until at least Julius Caesar's time, we don't know that the empire was able to *officially* celebrate any winter solstice festival at the correct time consistently.