<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->The problem was whit <b>Husky</b> which in his <b>battle</b> agains Iskon,hit not only them but also in <b>other branches of vaishnava(70% of hindus estimate) and even hinduism.</b><!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->What the? What did Husky do to the Vaishnavas and 'Hinduism'? <!--emo&:blink:--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/blink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='blink.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:blink:--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/blink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='blink.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:blink:--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/blink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='blink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Romani,
I'm going to try to keep this short.
1. Vaishnavas (I speak of the Tamizh kind) are very, <i>very</i> different from ISKCON. Vaishnavas are not 'monotheists'. Most of them have Vishnu + Lakshmi. Or Rama + Sita. These couples are INSEPARABLE. (There is no Rama without Sita, there is no Vishnu without Lakshmi - if not at his side, then Lakshmi literally resides in Vishnu's heart/chest always.) Some Vaishnavas have Krishna as their centre, others always add Radha, or else they keep Krishna with Rukmini. They all hold that these are ultimately my Mahavishnu and Lakshmi - well, in the case of Rukmini and Sita.
Look in any MahaVishnu Kovil (for example Sri Rangam where Ranganathar + Ranganayaki reside, or say Tirupathi where you have Venkatachalapathi + Sri Alamelumangathaayaru). Everytime I go to India, older family members there take me to visit many of our Kovils all over the 4 southern states, and in every Vishnu temple it is the same.
So I'm not sure what you mean when you say
<!--QuoteBegin-HareKrishna+Feb 13 2009, 11:41 AM-->QUOTE(HareKrishna @ Feb 13 2009, 11:41 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Vaishnava are monotheist in general[right][snapback]94547[/snapback][/right]<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->I should tell you that Tamizh Vaishnavas at least - like my mum's friends here and my family's old friends back home - find ISKCON very alien.
<b>CORRECTED (previously had left out the crucial word 'no'):</b> There's no need for me to write more about ISKCON at this point.
2. 70% of Hindus are Vaishnavas? Makes sense that that would be the perception in the west. I didn't know the percentage they had decided upon, but I had already worked out that they think it is the majority, because they focus on attacking Rama and Krishna most frequently.
But not all Vishnu (Rama, Krishna) Bhaktas are exclusively so, meaning they are not literally 'Vaishnavas'.
3. <!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->and probably Vishnu is secondary for shaivas<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->In some Shaiva streams, yes. For example, among Lingayats every God is considered to come from Shiva as a manifestation of him, including Shakti who is seen as an emanation of Shiva.
But this is not the case with all Shaivas.
For other Hindus (Shaivas/Shaktas for instance), all the Hindu Gods come first, but people can choose one or more Ishtadevas and of course we have our Kuladevas. Every God for us IS the Supreme God: every God on their own, or together, or all together. It does not matter.
This is a very common view in the part of Bharatam I come from.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Husky sometimes mix some kind of neo-hinduism(that type expresed by western intelectuality) and folk religion.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Allow me to know my Hindu Dharma.
I'm the sort of traditional Hindooo in whose family the Grandparents would take us to the backyard where the cows are, and then sprinkle cow urine over our heads as we have our hands folded in Namaskaram. (Hindus from Tamizh and Karnatakan villages will recognise this practise.) Yes, I'm *that* type of mowgli Hindoo that you can find in christobritish picture books marked as "satan's own spawn" with the 'disgusting' practises. (Coming from those genocidal christomaniacs, one can only take it as a compliment.)
Almost my entire family, from my ancestors down, is what the Abrahamic religions would call "polytheist". You are not familiar with my kind of Hindu, but it is incredibly common throughout TN, Karnataka, remote parts of Bharatam (so-called 'tribal' areas), Sri Lanka, Malaysia's Hindudom. And possibly other parts of Bharatam, certainly in the past.
Western people only know Hinduism Lite. They are only familiar with modern movements like ISKCON or Jai Swami Narayanan, or with the NRI branch of Arya Samaj (or they know of 'Hinduism' through some exercise classes advertised as 'yoga', through the modern movement called "Transcendental Meditation", or otherwise through popular internationally-moving Swamis) and think that they then know everything about God-based Hindu Dharma. You have been kept ignorant about the many other kinds of Hindus there are.
And it is intended that this problem of externally-enforced invisibility be further compounded by declaring that 'all Hindus only believe in One Supreme Being' as was recently declared by people who were *supposed* to be representing us in some Hindu-Jewish meet.
The Supreme Being for God-centric Hindus >= 1. Anyway, I haven't yet counted the Gods of the Taoists and Hellenes and Shintos and native Americans. Altogether it comes to >= 1.
I don't know any 'neo-Hinduism' except the modern movements. And it makes no sense for someone in ISKCON to be telling a traditional Hindu that they are a "neo Hindu" instead. I know very well what I am and can recognise what Radha Rajan and Rhytha are (and what Pandyas are) and many another Tamizh and Karnatakan person.
I have merely lived in a 'western' country for a long time, during which time I have observed and befriended the people where I live, but that's it. My mind works differently, it works Hindu.
I can relate with other Natural Traditions - some more so than others. I like learning about them. But for myself, I am a Hindu down into the very deepest of my layers (and it is from my Hinduness that I approach and understand other Natural Traditions).
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Personaly i want to learn more about shaivas.What are the shaiva teachings,what is the ultimate and eternal goal?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->God-based Hindu Dharma is the same whatever stream you take. Such a Hindu's goal is Bhagavan. Even famous advaitins including revered representatives of Advaita do moorthy puja and go to Kovil and think of Bhagavan in a manifestation (that is, with form), because these paths ultimately go to the same goal anyway. (E.g. Moothuswamy Dikshitar's songs on my Shiva are full of both Dvaita and Advaita views of Ishwara.) This is why Shankaracharya Mathas do temple pujas - because God(s)' manifestations are real - and the Hindus who feel an affiliation for these Shankaracharya Mathas also still keep to doing pujas.
If you feel uncomfortable with more than one God, just stick to Krishna as you have chosen. He has always been one of my Ishtadevas too. Read the Mahabharatam and a general version of the Gita - I personally find the ISKCON version is too full of their interpretations.
You like the personal God view, do you not? Wish there was a way you could get to hear the Ramayanam or Srimad Bhagavatam narrated by traditional Hindu narrators... Oooh, I know, what you could easily do is to collect traditional pictures of Hindu Gods from online and look at them. It's what many Hindus do. If you want a picture of Murugan (aka Kumaran aka Subramaniam), tell me. I know of a glorious one. My family had astounding pictures of Krishna, Ramar Pathaabishekam (sp?) and Mahavishnu, but sadly they're not online...
So much for my trying to keep things 'short'.
Romani,
I'm going to try to keep this short.
1. Vaishnavas (I speak of the Tamizh kind) are very, <i>very</i> different from ISKCON. Vaishnavas are not 'monotheists'. Most of them have Vishnu + Lakshmi. Or Rama + Sita. These couples are INSEPARABLE. (There is no Rama without Sita, there is no Vishnu without Lakshmi - if not at his side, then Lakshmi literally resides in Vishnu's heart/chest always.) Some Vaishnavas have Krishna as their centre, others always add Radha, or else they keep Krishna with Rukmini. They all hold that these are ultimately my Mahavishnu and Lakshmi - well, in the case of Rukmini and Sita.
Look in any MahaVishnu Kovil (for example Sri Rangam where Ranganathar + Ranganayaki reside, or say Tirupathi where you have Venkatachalapathi + Sri Alamelumangathaayaru). Everytime I go to India, older family members there take me to visit many of our Kovils all over the 4 southern states, and in every Vishnu temple it is the same.
So I'm not sure what you mean when you say
<!--QuoteBegin-HareKrishna+Feb 13 2009, 11:41 AM-->QUOTE(HareKrishna @ Feb 13 2009, 11:41 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Vaishnava are monotheist in general[right][snapback]94547[/snapback][/right]<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->I should tell you that Tamizh Vaishnavas at least - like my mum's friends here and my family's old friends back home - find ISKCON very alien.
<b>CORRECTED (previously had left out the crucial word 'no'):</b> There's no need for me to write more about ISKCON at this point.
2. 70% of Hindus are Vaishnavas? Makes sense that that would be the perception in the west. I didn't know the percentage they had decided upon, but I had already worked out that they think it is the majority, because they focus on attacking Rama and Krishna most frequently.
But not all Vishnu (Rama, Krishna) Bhaktas are exclusively so, meaning they are not literally 'Vaishnavas'.
3. <!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->and probably Vishnu is secondary for shaivas<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->In some Shaiva streams, yes. For example, among Lingayats every God is considered to come from Shiva as a manifestation of him, including Shakti who is seen as an emanation of Shiva.
But this is not the case with all Shaivas.
For other Hindus (Shaivas/Shaktas for instance), all the Hindu Gods come first, but people can choose one or more Ishtadevas and of course we have our Kuladevas. Every God for us IS the Supreme God: every God on their own, or together, or all together. It does not matter.
This is a very common view in the part of Bharatam I come from.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Husky sometimes mix some kind of neo-hinduism(that type expresed by western intelectuality) and folk religion.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Allow me to know my Hindu Dharma.
I'm the sort of traditional Hindooo in whose family the Grandparents would take us to the backyard where the cows are, and then sprinkle cow urine over our heads as we have our hands folded in Namaskaram. (Hindus from Tamizh and Karnatakan villages will recognise this practise.) Yes, I'm *that* type of mowgli Hindoo that you can find in christobritish picture books marked as "satan's own spawn" with the 'disgusting' practises. (Coming from those genocidal christomaniacs, one can only take it as a compliment.)
Almost my entire family, from my ancestors down, is what the Abrahamic religions would call "polytheist". You are not familiar with my kind of Hindu, but it is incredibly common throughout TN, Karnataka, remote parts of Bharatam (so-called 'tribal' areas), Sri Lanka, Malaysia's Hindudom. And possibly other parts of Bharatam, certainly in the past.
Western people only know Hinduism Lite. They are only familiar with modern movements like ISKCON or Jai Swami Narayanan, or with the NRI branch of Arya Samaj (or they know of 'Hinduism' through some exercise classes advertised as 'yoga', through the modern movement called "Transcendental Meditation", or otherwise through popular internationally-moving Swamis) and think that they then know everything about God-based Hindu Dharma. You have been kept ignorant about the many other kinds of Hindus there are.
And it is intended that this problem of externally-enforced invisibility be further compounded by declaring that 'all Hindus only believe in One Supreme Being' as was recently declared by people who were *supposed* to be representing us in some Hindu-Jewish meet.
The Supreme Being for God-centric Hindus >= 1. Anyway, I haven't yet counted the Gods of the Taoists and Hellenes and Shintos and native Americans. Altogether it comes to >= 1.
I don't know any 'neo-Hinduism' except the modern movements. And it makes no sense for someone in ISKCON to be telling a traditional Hindu that they are a "neo Hindu" instead. I know very well what I am and can recognise what Radha Rajan and Rhytha are (and what Pandyas are) and many another Tamizh and Karnatakan person.
I have merely lived in a 'western' country for a long time, during which time I have observed and befriended the people where I live, but that's it. My mind works differently, it works Hindu.
I can relate with other Natural Traditions - some more so than others. I like learning about them. But for myself, I am a Hindu down into the very deepest of my layers (and it is from my Hinduness that I approach and understand other Natural Traditions).
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Personaly i want to learn more about shaivas.What are the shaiva teachings,what is the ultimate and eternal goal?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->God-based Hindu Dharma is the same whatever stream you take. Such a Hindu's goal is Bhagavan. Even famous advaitins including revered representatives of Advaita do moorthy puja and go to Kovil and think of Bhagavan in a manifestation (that is, with form), because these paths ultimately go to the same goal anyway. (E.g. Moothuswamy Dikshitar's songs on my Shiva are full of both Dvaita and Advaita views of Ishwara.) This is why Shankaracharya Mathas do temple pujas - because God(s)' manifestations are real - and the Hindus who feel an affiliation for these Shankaracharya Mathas also still keep to doing pujas.
If you feel uncomfortable with more than one God, just stick to Krishna as you have chosen. He has always been one of my Ishtadevas too. Read the Mahabharatam and a general version of the Gita - I personally find the ISKCON version is too full of their interpretations.
You like the personal God view, do you not? Wish there was a way you could get to hear the Ramayanam or Srimad Bhagavatam narrated by traditional Hindu narrators... Oooh, I know, what you could easily do is to collect traditional pictures of Hindu Gods from online and look at them. It's what many Hindus do. If you want a picture of Murugan (aka Kumaran aka Subramaniam), tell me. I know of a glorious one. My family had astounding pictures of Krishna, Ramar Pathaabishekam (sp?) and Mahavishnu, but sadly they're not online...
So much for my trying to keep things 'short'.