<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->In reality, Hinduism and Religion are Abhrahamic inventions <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->I never agreed with the christian scholarship that claimed that the British invented 'Hinduism'. And this is a point of contention I have with Balagangadhara's saying something similar.
Whatever Hellenismos, Shinto, Tao and the rest are is what Hindu Dharma is. (It is not what christianism and islamism are, of course.)
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Hindu civilization is more analogous to Western Civilization than Christianity alone. In other words it includes many Vedic Philosophies.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->I'd say
1. Hindu civilisation is analogous to the Hellenic civilisation
2. It includes more besides Vedic.
3. There's far more to it than only philosophy (am supposing the term is meant in the Greek sense)
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->In reality, Hinduism and Religion are Abhrahamic inventions (Just the terms of course, as Vedic Civlization has existed for thousands of years before any Abhrahamic religion existed).<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Again: there's more than Vedic.
<b>Anyway, what I think is the more important stuff:</b>
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->In Europe and even in the U.S. and rest of the world, Non-religious movements are gaining in strength as people see the absurdity of organized Abhrahamic religions.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->But western atheism and agnosticism are not at all the same as the atheist schools in Dharmic tradition (including the Jaina and Indian Bauddha tradition).
Western atheists denounce all religion. They
- are specifically opposed to the idea of any spirituality (including concepts like aatman, anything special about nature) and also
- deny any use/meaning in <i>philosophy</i> (IIRC, this is discussed in internet infidels). While I've never been inclined to adopt others' philosophies for myself (aren't we all capable of answering life's questions for ourselves?), I respect the right of others to pursue established philosophical paths like the Greek ones.
If you mean that the <i>modern</i> non-religious movements in India that are similar to what exists in the west are Hindu - no, they're not. They may be humane and they may (hopefully) be okay with coexisting with Dharmic traditions, but they would be modern and not derived from Dharmic tradition if they are like those in the west. The indigenous atheist schools of thought are Hindu/Dharmic, not any modern ones that are (coincidentally) modelled along western lines. That does not mean such views won't be accepted - all live-and-let-live paths are generally accepted in Natural Traditionalist societies.
But unless something is a natural product of Hindu evolution, it is not Hindu by definition. (Cultural Hindus who have grown up to be atheist and are not antagonistic towards traditional Hindu paths, but are instead understanding/sympathetic towards all branches, tend to be Hindus I think, since it is like their own mental evolution and is not in conflict with established Dharmic tradition. This is my opinion.)
<i>Modern</i> Indian atheists - that is, the non-Hindu type - may be nationalistic and rightfully fearful of christianism/islamism, though some of them are quite antagonistic to anything Hindu. E.g. India's rationalist associations who are only interested in demasking 'swamis', Indian atheists movements that are specifically targeted at de-Hinduising Hindus, see for instance the Indian portion of the American PAM site http://positiveatheism.org/tocindia.htm. See the anchor text of the links on that page, particularly as you move further down.
The Gora and Lavanam persons (acquaintances of Gandhi) are quite antagonistic to Hindu Dharma.
http://www.positiveatheism.org/india/s1990a28.htm
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Above all it was he who started and propagated the holding of cosmopolitan <b>dinners of pork and beef</b> as a means of eradicating the evil of caste prejudices and religious taboos of certain food.
No doubt Gandhi was a great force in the modern world and Gora was a Gandhian in many ways, except Gandhi's faith in God and traditional customs. Gora rejected the whole of Hindu Sanatana Dharma and Varnashrama Dharma, four-fold caste system, in which Gandhi totally believed and advocated as necessary aspects of Hindu religion and society and as a matter of fact for all societies.
In 1972 we organised a cosmopolitan <b>beef and pork dinner function</b> at Coimbatore. <b>Late Periar Ramaswamy, the iconoclast and octogenarian presided over the dinner function.</b> The Atheist couple from Andhra Pradesh Mrs. Saraswathi Gora and Mr. Gora were the guests and guest-speakers. It was a grand function. More than 700 persons participated. Some of them were couples. Mrs. Saraswathi Gora spoke of her experiences as an atheist, in chaste Telugu. Gora delivered his speech in English. Periar Ramaswamy, President of the function, who knew Telugu. English and Tamil, spoke in Tamil. Speeches kept the audience spell-bound. All the hearers knew Tamil. Some of them knew English and Telugu. The entire audience were really enthused. This function attracted a lot of youth to the atheist fold. <b>Mr. Gora and Mrs. Saraswathi Gora, born Brahmins</b> ... giving up their cherished age-old privileges and high caste status, plunging and allying themselves with common folk, and <b>participating in beef and pork dinner, are historic and were talked of as the magnificent achievement of atheist way of life. Late Periar Ramaswamy and Gora couple were my guests as usual. Periar and Gora moved like members of a family</b> and exchanged their views on several matters in sweet Telugu.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
http://www.positiveatheism.org/mail/eml9940.htm
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->I visited your web page after reading an article in yesterdayâs LA Times about Christian missionaries being killed (four nuns raped) due to Hindu extremists fighting against cultural imperialism.
(The old christian fiction again.)
[...]
<b>Lavanam tells me that the Hindu government is the biggest evil to befall India since its independence in 1948.</b> I can only inmagine the differences that have ensued since the ascendence of the Hindu government. The Hindu government is so subtle that Moslems are âplaying footsiesâ with it, and are likely getting favors such as immunity in return.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Apparently the congress govt is better because it is supposedly 'secular' (read: anti-Hindu)?
At least there's one good thing, I see that a *Hindu* atheist woman corrected some aspects about the above accusation, see http://www.positiveatheism.org/mail/eml9031.htm
Anyway, the sort of modern 'Indian' atheism of Gora/Lavanam is of a very monotheistic tendency: of missionising and converting the heathen; and it is not an Indian style of atheism but christowestern. And in particular it is <i>anti</i>-Hindu. True, some of the Greek philosophers were quite ungenerous about the traditional Greco-Romans and their Gods, but their followers weren't so antagonistic to Hellenismos AND the Greek philosophical paths grew out of Greek Tradition itself. Whereas such christo-conditioned western-patterned atheism in India is the result not of Hindu Dharma but of contact with the modern west.
I have no issue with western atheism (although its certainty that there are no Gods and there is no spirituality at all is hard to verify), and I think western agnostics have a very sensible position. One exception: I don't like the 'missionary atheism' of the west, because it has a very monotheistic tendency and is indiscriminate in grouping all religions with the christoislamic ideology without even bothering to see that the other religions are in no way a problem to their existence. But for the christian west, atheism and agnosticism is to be preferred to christianism. Still, it's sad to see how christianism brought the continuation of their traditions and their mental/spiritual evolution to an abrupt end, and that post-christianism atheism/agnosticism is the only path they find they can take since they now are so un-attuned to return to where they left off.
In real life, many of my friends tend to be atheists and agnostics and they get along very well with me too (although, since they don't ask, they continue to assume I am an atheist like them <!--emo&:blink:--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/blink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='blink.gif' /><!--endemo--> Of course, <i>I</i> know what <i>they</i> are and accept <i>them</i> without reservations.) They think open-mindedness and 'tolerance' is purely an atheist quality because they're only used to christianism and know of islamism. (In contrast, E Asians, being traditionalists themselves, immediately assess me correctly as a traditionalist too. They are no less open-minded than us Hindus. Feel truly at home with them. Interesting that whereas I'm not guarded about what my affiliation is - if asked about it - they are though: Taoists for instance will not answer questions on what they are depending on who is asking.)
Am comfortable with western atheists. But <i>modern</i> Indian atheist movements worry me. Indians have not lost all of their tradition the way the west has, so they have the option of choosing a traditional Hindu atheistic path; or alternatively, they can be completely like *non-missionary* western atheists: individual atheists completely detached from all religion. However, modern Indian atheist movements nevertheless tend to be particularly anti-Hindu (though they may not approve of christianism/islamism either). The missionary atheist movements generally take it out on the majority religion in any part of the world and on first consideration, that would be Hindu Dharma in India. But that doesn't quite make sense in our situation since - unlike the west which was terrorised by christianism - Dharmic society is not generally interested in pursuing atheists or being intolerant of others' path.
If Bharatam may not remain Hindu, I would prefer it to become atheist in the fashion of what much of Japan is, rather than anything else (let alone christoislamic). Japanese atheists are not anti-Shinto or anti-Bauddha, even though their atheism is not not derived from a mental evolution born of Shinto or Buddhism but due to external events in recent Japanese history. Whereas, in Bharatam, everything that is a result of christo-influence is anti-Hindu.
Actually, a non-Hindu atheistic Bharatam like that in Japan would not bother me at all. It is enough if christoislamicommunazi memes are no more in the world (missionising memes that are intolerant of others' ways of life and personal beliefs, and can't bear that someone *somewhere* holds different private views). Then I'd not really mind what Bharatam becomes. I know it can never be what it was, and that the christian world has left its indelible imprint despite everything, and has installed breakage/christowestern thought patterns already. Since change we must and already have, I hope we go the way of Nippon. But christoislamicommunism will never allow that of course. Just as christoism has its sights on Japan and even communism has been launching repeated failed attempts on the country.
For true freedom to exist in the world, terrorist memes must be destroyed forever. After that, what happens is up to a free humanity. Of course, I'd dearly have at least one Natural Tradition survive and live a full, uncompromised life. My money is on Hellenismos or Taoism.
HK quotation (found to the left at BJP to free Temples from Government Control)
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->"In religion lies the vitality of India and so long as the Hindu race does not forget the inheritance of their forefathers there is no power on earth to destroy them"
Swami Vivekananda<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Whatever Hellenismos, Shinto, Tao and the rest are is what Hindu Dharma is. (It is not what christianism and islamism are, of course.)
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Hindu civilization is more analogous to Western Civilization than Christianity alone. In other words it includes many Vedic Philosophies.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->I'd say
1. Hindu civilisation is analogous to the Hellenic civilisation
2. It includes more besides Vedic.
3. There's far more to it than only philosophy (am supposing the term is meant in the Greek sense)
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->In reality, Hinduism and Religion are Abhrahamic inventions (Just the terms of course, as Vedic Civlization has existed for thousands of years before any Abhrahamic religion existed).<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Again: there's more than Vedic.
<b>Anyway, what I think is the more important stuff:</b>
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->In Europe and even in the U.S. and rest of the world, Non-religious movements are gaining in strength as people see the absurdity of organized Abhrahamic religions.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->But western atheism and agnosticism are not at all the same as the atheist schools in Dharmic tradition (including the Jaina and Indian Bauddha tradition).
Western atheists denounce all religion. They
- are specifically opposed to the idea of any spirituality (including concepts like aatman, anything special about nature) and also
- deny any use/meaning in <i>philosophy</i> (IIRC, this is discussed in internet infidels). While I've never been inclined to adopt others' philosophies for myself (aren't we all capable of answering life's questions for ourselves?), I respect the right of others to pursue established philosophical paths like the Greek ones.
If you mean that the <i>modern</i> non-religious movements in India that are similar to what exists in the west are Hindu - no, they're not. They may be humane and they may (hopefully) be okay with coexisting with Dharmic traditions, but they would be modern and not derived from Dharmic tradition if they are like those in the west. The indigenous atheist schools of thought are Hindu/Dharmic, not any modern ones that are (coincidentally) modelled along western lines. That does not mean such views won't be accepted - all live-and-let-live paths are generally accepted in Natural Traditionalist societies.
But unless something is a natural product of Hindu evolution, it is not Hindu by definition. (Cultural Hindus who have grown up to be atheist and are not antagonistic towards traditional Hindu paths, but are instead understanding/sympathetic towards all branches, tend to be Hindus I think, since it is like their own mental evolution and is not in conflict with established Dharmic tradition. This is my opinion.)
<i>Modern</i> Indian atheists - that is, the non-Hindu type - may be nationalistic and rightfully fearful of christianism/islamism, though some of them are quite antagonistic to anything Hindu. E.g. India's rationalist associations who are only interested in demasking 'swamis', Indian atheists movements that are specifically targeted at de-Hinduising Hindus, see for instance the Indian portion of the American PAM site http://positiveatheism.org/tocindia.htm. See the anchor text of the links on that page, particularly as you move further down.
The Gora and Lavanam persons (acquaintances of Gandhi) are quite antagonistic to Hindu Dharma.
http://www.positiveatheism.org/india/s1990a28.htm
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Above all it was he who started and propagated the holding of cosmopolitan <b>dinners of pork and beef</b> as a means of eradicating the evil of caste prejudices and religious taboos of certain food.
No doubt Gandhi was a great force in the modern world and Gora was a Gandhian in many ways, except Gandhi's faith in God and traditional customs. Gora rejected the whole of Hindu Sanatana Dharma and Varnashrama Dharma, four-fold caste system, in which Gandhi totally believed and advocated as necessary aspects of Hindu religion and society and as a matter of fact for all societies.
In 1972 we organised a cosmopolitan <b>beef and pork dinner function</b> at Coimbatore. <b>Late Periar Ramaswamy, the iconoclast and octogenarian presided over the dinner function.</b> The Atheist couple from Andhra Pradesh Mrs. Saraswathi Gora and Mr. Gora were the guests and guest-speakers. It was a grand function. More than 700 persons participated. Some of them were couples. Mrs. Saraswathi Gora spoke of her experiences as an atheist, in chaste Telugu. Gora delivered his speech in English. Periar Ramaswamy, President of the function, who knew Telugu. English and Tamil, spoke in Tamil. Speeches kept the audience spell-bound. All the hearers knew Tamil. Some of them knew English and Telugu. The entire audience were really enthused. This function attracted a lot of youth to the atheist fold. <b>Mr. Gora and Mrs. Saraswathi Gora, born Brahmins</b> ... giving up their cherished age-old privileges and high caste status, plunging and allying themselves with common folk, and <b>participating in beef and pork dinner, are historic and were talked of as the magnificent achievement of atheist way of life. Late Periar Ramaswamy and Gora couple were my guests as usual. Periar and Gora moved like members of a family</b> and exchanged their views on several matters in sweet Telugu.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
http://www.positiveatheism.org/mail/eml9940.htm
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->I visited your web page after reading an article in yesterdayâs LA Times about Christian missionaries being killed (four nuns raped) due to Hindu extremists fighting against cultural imperialism.
(The old christian fiction again.)
[...]
<b>Lavanam tells me that the Hindu government is the biggest evil to befall India since its independence in 1948.</b> I can only inmagine the differences that have ensued since the ascendence of the Hindu government. The Hindu government is so subtle that Moslems are âplaying footsiesâ with it, and are likely getting favors such as immunity in return.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Apparently the congress govt is better because it is supposedly 'secular' (read: anti-Hindu)?
At least there's one good thing, I see that a *Hindu* atheist woman corrected some aspects about the above accusation, see http://www.positiveatheism.org/mail/eml9031.htm
Anyway, the sort of modern 'Indian' atheism of Gora/Lavanam is of a very monotheistic tendency: of missionising and converting the heathen; and it is not an Indian style of atheism but christowestern. And in particular it is <i>anti</i>-Hindu. True, some of the Greek philosophers were quite ungenerous about the traditional Greco-Romans and their Gods, but their followers weren't so antagonistic to Hellenismos AND the Greek philosophical paths grew out of Greek Tradition itself. Whereas such christo-conditioned western-patterned atheism in India is the result not of Hindu Dharma but of contact with the modern west.
I have no issue with western atheism (although its certainty that there are no Gods and there is no spirituality at all is hard to verify), and I think western agnostics have a very sensible position. One exception: I don't like the 'missionary atheism' of the west, because it has a very monotheistic tendency and is indiscriminate in grouping all religions with the christoislamic ideology without even bothering to see that the other religions are in no way a problem to their existence. But for the christian west, atheism and agnosticism is to be preferred to christianism. Still, it's sad to see how christianism brought the continuation of their traditions and their mental/spiritual evolution to an abrupt end, and that post-christianism atheism/agnosticism is the only path they find they can take since they now are so un-attuned to return to where they left off.
In real life, many of my friends tend to be atheists and agnostics and they get along very well with me too (although, since they don't ask, they continue to assume I am an atheist like them <!--emo&:blink:--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/blink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='blink.gif' /><!--endemo--> Of course, <i>I</i> know what <i>they</i> are and accept <i>them</i> without reservations.) They think open-mindedness and 'tolerance' is purely an atheist quality because they're only used to christianism and know of islamism. (In contrast, E Asians, being traditionalists themselves, immediately assess me correctly as a traditionalist too. They are no less open-minded than us Hindus. Feel truly at home with them. Interesting that whereas I'm not guarded about what my affiliation is - if asked about it - they are though: Taoists for instance will not answer questions on what they are depending on who is asking.)
Am comfortable with western atheists. But <i>modern</i> Indian atheist movements worry me. Indians have not lost all of their tradition the way the west has, so they have the option of choosing a traditional Hindu atheistic path; or alternatively, they can be completely like *non-missionary* western atheists: individual atheists completely detached from all religion. However, modern Indian atheist movements nevertheless tend to be particularly anti-Hindu (though they may not approve of christianism/islamism either). The missionary atheist movements generally take it out on the majority religion in any part of the world and on first consideration, that would be Hindu Dharma in India. But that doesn't quite make sense in our situation since - unlike the west which was terrorised by christianism - Dharmic society is not generally interested in pursuing atheists or being intolerant of others' path.
If Bharatam may not remain Hindu, I would prefer it to become atheist in the fashion of what much of Japan is, rather than anything else (let alone christoislamic). Japanese atheists are not anti-Shinto or anti-Bauddha, even though their atheism is not not derived from a mental evolution born of Shinto or Buddhism but due to external events in recent Japanese history. Whereas, in Bharatam, everything that is a result of christo-influence is anti-Hindu.
Actually, a non-Hindu atheistic Bharatam like that in Japan would not bother me at all. It is enough if christoislamicommunazi memes are no more in the world (missionising memes that are intolerant of others' ways of life and personal beliefs, and can't bear that someone *somewhere* holds different private views). Then I'd not really mind what Bharatam becomes. I know it can never be what it was, and that the christian world has left its indelible imprint despite everything, and has installed breakage/christowestern thought patterns already. Since change we must and already have, I hope we go the way of Nippon. But christoislamicommunism will never allow that of course. Just as christoism has its sights on Japan and even communism has been launching repeated failed attempts on the country.
For true freedom to exist in the world, terrorist memes must be destroyed forever. After that, what happens is up to a free humanity. Of course, I'd dearly have at least one Natural Tradition survive and live a full, uncompromised life. My money is on Hellenismos or Taoism.
HK quotation (found to the left at BJP to free Temples from Government Control)
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->"In religion lies the vitality of India and so long as the Hindu race does not forget the inheritance of their forefathers there is no power on earth to destroy them"
Swami Vivekananda<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Death to traitors.