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Indology And Indologists,
#32
This probably doesn't belong here, but the contrasting of "Vedic and un-vedic" reminded me.


1. The following two items are from beliefnet. Beliefnet is some umbrella intrafaith and interfaith dialoguing group. It looks like the groups are only talking with each other (mostly within groups), but it's a monitoring facility to see what the current trends are.

www.beliefnet.com/boards/message_list.asp?pageID=2&discussionID=320810&messages_per_page=4
My own inserts in purple
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Vedism</b>

Hinduism is a descendant of Indo-European Vedic religion and the non-IE Indian traditions. Vedic Reconstructionism is a revival of the old Vedic religion. Warning: Hinduism being descended from Vedic religion often describes itself as Vedic, the majority of things you find on the web, will be Hindu or Hare Krishna rather than Vedic recon.

(The following lines are all links in the original "beliefnet" item above.)
Sword & Shield: Vedism Overview
Vedism Introduction
The History of Religion in India: Vedism and Hinduism
The Order of the Perfumed Scorpion
Institute of Vedic Culture
Hinduism Sacred Texts (just look at the Vedas at the top)
Veda mp3 audio samples

<b>Proto-Indo-European Reconstructionism</b>

(The following lines are all links in the original "beliefnet" item above.)
Nemos Ognios
Gods and Goddesses central to the earliest IE religion
ADF: PIE Rituals
MSN Groups: The Noble Path (Arioweghya)
IE Mythologies: Genesis and Evolution of Characters
IE Mythologies: Structure in Socio-Historical Aspect
Indo-Europeans and Indo-European (linguistics)
Journal for Indo=European Studies

Sword & Shield: PIE Studies Board<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Reading the following in full may be of interest for those who didn't know yet.
Note that the following expresses views FAR KINDER to Hindus/Hindu Dharma than most 'vedic reconstructionist' individus and orgs out there.

Over several pages starting at:
www.beliefnet.com/boards/message_list.asp?boardID=14288&discussionID=434530

There are some links embedded in the texts in the original. These links are lost in the C&P-ed text below.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Vedic Reconstructionism</b>

Messages: 1 - 4 (13 total)

amorphous
5/27/2005 2:53 PM  1 out of 13 

[This topic is in response to the thread Vedic Reconstructionism on the Learn about Hinduism board.]

As a "Vedic Recon," I would like to say a few things

1. The Hindu traditions are wonderful and beautiful. No one in the "Vedic Recon" community would ever say or even think otherwise.
(The use of "beautiful" as diversionary compliment means nothing. The arguments they give throughout this quoteblock are still for delegitimising Hindu Dharma including by negating the fact that the Vedas and Vedic traditions are an intrinsic aspect thereof. Instead, they want to extract it as an independent free-for-all.)
2. "Vedic Recons" are not seeking to replace any Hindu tradition or religion - ever. We are a separate movement, outside of Hinduism proper, and do not claim superiority over Hinduism and its' traditions. We simply aren't Hindu.
3. Since we are not Hindu, and there is no specific board for "Vedic Reconstructionism," there is really no appropriate place on Beliefnet to discuss this movement. If anyone is interested in "Vedic Reconstructionism," contact me and I can point you in the right direction and/or we can request Beliefnet accommodate the topic.
4. I suppose debates on "Vedic Reconstructionism" can be appropriately discussed on the Recon Debate board for now. I have posted these points, plus my personal responses to issues on this board.

A. What is the purpose of "Vedic Reconstructionism"?
The two primary objectives of the "Vedic Recon" movement is to:
1. Encourage the direct study and reverence of the spiritual and literal contents of the Rigveda, Yajurveda, Saamaveda and Atharvaveda - regardless of the practitioner's sex, birth, status, etc.
2. Reestablish the reverence and worship of the Vedic Gods, and the associated theologies, as stated in the aforementioned texts.

We realize that factual understanding of the ancient Vedic societies is limited. Though we may take into account certain academic and archeological facts, <b>it is not our purpose to debate the geography, ethnicity or culture of the aarya (e.g. we don't care how they got to India).</b> Nor do we, as a community, have any requirements concerning the geography, ethnicity or cultural background of our "members." We do not focus on the origin of a "people," but the origin of life, Law (Rita, as described in the caturveda) and the Gods. The Gods and their wishes are the most important to us.
(But that just shows: these people *do* believe the 'oryans' got to India.)

Language, practice, authenticity are important issues to which I have posted a reply later in this thread (see A Personal Response to Important Issues).

[conintued ] 



amorphous
5/27/2005 2:54 PM  2 out of 13 

B. Why "Vedic Reconstructionism"?
Those of us who became interested in the Vedic Gods - as found within the primary Vedas (caturveda) - searched for a Hindu tradition that still worshipped these deities. Needless to say, we were disappointed to find that no one worships <b>only the Vedic Gods</b>, if any at all. We were also very disappointed to find that most Hindus, while stating their tradition is based upon these texts, had never directly read them  and had no idea what they actually said.

Also during our search, we found a large number of Hindus who, for various reasons, became quite irate and offended that we were interested in the worship of the Vedic Gods and the practices in the Vedas. Due to this common reaction, "Vedic Recons" had no choice but to form a new community - apart from Hinduism - so that we may read the Vedas, and worship the Gods found within these works, without disturbing the Hindu community.

So, that is the long and short of why the "Vedic Recon" movement has left the Hindu cultural context - it was ultimately the wish of the Hindu community.

C. What are "Vedic Recons"?
This section might best be termed "What 'Vedic Recons' are not"  but to continue:

1. We are not related (or even remotely similar) to Gaudiiya Vaisnava, ISKCON or the Hare Krishna movement. For example, we do not believe in Hindu reincarnation, mandatory vegetarianism or Krisna. <b>We have no interest in the Bhagavad Giitaa.</b> In our opinion, the Hare Krishnas are far from "Vedic."

A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupaada even went so far as to call the Vedic Gods "demigods," and those who worship them as "less intelligent" (e.g. see his commentary of 7.20 in the Bhagavad Giitaa, As It Is1). If you read the definitions of key Vedic deities in the lexicon of the same book,1 he specifically states that "Deva" means "a demigod or godly person" and uses this definition for the deities in the Vedas (e.g. "Agni - the demigod of fire," "Candra - the presiding demigod of the moon").1
(Swami Prabhupaada's claims on this do not count. He doesn't know the other Gods at all.)

In his book The Science of Self-Realization,2 Swami Prabhupaada defines Indra as "the king of the heavenly planets and chief of the administrative demigods." In The Laws of Nature: An Infallible Justice,3 he likens Indra to a hog (as according to a particular myth; no source quoted) and describes how happy Indra was with this stool-eating form.

He ranks Gods as demigods/men and raises up men and demigods as Gods (even above Visnu Himself in some instances). This is not "Vedic." Frankly, we feel this attitude towards the Vedic Gods alone qualifies the Hare Krishna movement as naastika according to the Vedas (particularly the caturveda).
(ISKCON is very non-representative: it's a recent movement, although it refers to a longer pedigree. The west only knows ISKCON, so it always uses them as a measuring standard or basis for comparison. And no self-respecting mainstream Hindu condones ISKCON's condescending on and ridiculing other Hindu Gods.)

2. Due to the use of the term "Vedic" by the Hare Krishnas, and for respect of the ancient Vedics, "Vedic Recons" are formulating a more appropriate and descriptive term for our movement. If we use the term "Vedic" or "Vedism" (vaidika), it will be qualified (e.g. Neo-Vedism, Modern Vedism, etc.). This also explains why I have put "Vedic Recon" in quotes. We have not agreed upon a term as of yet.

3. We are not a Proto-IE movement. We do not justify our interest in the Vedas or the Gods because "we are Indo-European too" (actually, some of us are not entirely "IE" in heritage). We are not seeking to generalize or universalize the Gods as IE. The Vedas and the Vedic Gods are Vedic. The only "universal" aspect we advocate is that the Gods may be worshipped and the Vedas followed by anyone, regardless of birth.
(Other 'vedic reconstructionists' clearly state their claims are because of IE.
In any case, the Gods are certainly open to all. But the rites may not be performed by merely those who elect themselves.)

[continued ] 



amorphous
5/27/2005 2:55 PM  3 out of 13 

End Remarks
I did not post this [under the Vedic Reconstructionism on Learn about Hinduism] to start another debate on that board - these are just the facts surrounding the establishment of "Vedic Reconstructionism." I hope this helps the curious and relieves the Hindu community here at Beliefnet from having to deal with this topic in the future. The last thing any "Vedic Recon" wants is to upset the Hindu community or force them to address an uncomfortable topic. We always welcome comments, suggestions and criticisms from Hindus. I worked hard for the Hindu community here on Beliefnet when I was host, so I hope you trust me when I say, "abhaya" - I mean no ill will.
(Yes, interfaith dialoguing. Let's talk while we steal from you and delegitimise you - note that we do it in a "well-meaning" manner, so that makes us better, and hence if you protest you are being intolerant Hindooos.)

Some very pertinent issues have been raised on this thread and I have posted a response here on this board (general and then specific). Again, if you would like more information or you would like to debate the points of this movement with me personally, I encourage you to email me so we may communicate and/or petition Beliefnet for an appropriate forum.

Thank you guys for the great discussion. Please continue reading for more detailed information.

1 A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupaada. Bhagavad-Giitaa: As It Is. Bhaktivedanta Book Trust, Dominion Press - Hedges & Bell, Australia. 1984. (Page 266; 605; 607)
2 A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupaada. The Science of Self-Realization. Bhaktivedanta Book Trust, England. 1968-1977. (Page 310)
3 A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupaada. The Laws of Nature: An Infallible Justice. Bhaktivedanta Book Trust, USA. 1991. (Pages 54-55)

NOTE ON ALL POSTS: Transliteration is according to the ASTHA system on Sanskrit & S nscrito


amorphous
5/27/2005 2:56 PM  4 out of 13 

A Personal Response to Important Issues (General)
<b>Some really great comments and concerns were raised about "Vedic Reconstructionsim." I will admit that some of us are more "orthodox" than others. I am probably the most "orthodox" of them all in some respects.</b> So, I would like to express what I have been doing to address some of these basic concerns. Please note that these responses are my personal views and opinions and do not necessarily reflect the will of all members of the "Vedic Recon" community or organization(s).
(Claims of orthodoxy.)

Language
I have been studying Sanskrit for 10 years now, to the best of my ability, and will continue to do so until I leave this earth. I can fluently read in script with little accent (yes, I did finally find a tutor for pronunciation). I am not quite fluent in comprehension, but I am working on it.

And, in my opinion, no leader in the "Vedic Recon" community should be without knowledge of Sanskrit. Pronunciation is an important aspect of Vedic rites. The most important part is for <b>clergy</b> and laity to learn devanaagarii, the proper pronunciation (etc.) - comprehension is secondary and will come with time. This is being addressed within the community. I have personally made materials available on this topic including educational literature.

In regards to the reading of the texts - I do not solely rely on the English translations. I go to the original. I am also familiar with the various pathas. There is more to understanding the Vedas than simply reading them in as a collection (samhitaa).

Practice
I intend to perform the essential Vedic rites, such as the agnihotra, darshapuurnamaasya, caaturmaasya, etc. I have been working on the calendar and ritual schedule already, which include these rites. <b>I am also willing to perform the paashuka rites with actual animals, unlike what is usually done in India. Currently, I do altered forms of worship while I prepare myself fully for the traditional rites.</b> I am personally not ready yet to take on that responsibility technically or materially. I would rather simplify my worship than perform a sacred rite incorrectly or poorly.

As for the basis for some rites and cycles, like the caaturmaasya ("every four months"), there are variations of these within India. Some include a fourth rite, shunaasiiriiya, for caaturmaasya, which could technically make it "traimaasya" ("every three months; quarterly") depending on the timing (which would be per 4 seasons - instead of 3 - and coincide [generally] with the solstices and equinoxes; However, most Hindus recognize more than 3 "seasons" now anyway).

So, given the fact that in India, the various traditions do have variations for what is "Vedic," I am sure that having some special variations to allow for seasonal differences and local law should not be a huge problem. Ultimately, what happens is up to the Gods. They can express their likes and dislikes just as well as we can - sometimes even more effectively.

Anyway, a very intensive training program is being developed so that clergy will be properly prepared. Once we have enough prepared members, who are comfortable with the rites, and the resources to purchase land, animals and materials, we will establish regular services.

[continued ] 

 
  Vedic Reconstructionism 

amorphous
5/27/2005 2:57 PM  5 out of 13 

Varna
One's varna was originally based on skill/certification - not on birth. If someone joined the community and adopted the law and religion of the aarya, they would be included based upon skill/qualification and profession (usually shudra). If they acquired the skill and/or certification later, they would then be part of the appropriate higher varna. There are plenty of examples in Hindu literature of parents being of a lower varna than their children.

I think there is an important point to make: "caste" (from Portuguese, meaning "clean, pure") is not the same as the Vedic varna ("outward appearance, form, figure, color"). As the term varn means also "to describe, proclaim qualities, etc.," one's varna would (or should, in this case) simply describe their current accomplishments and certifications, not restrict them and their progeny for eternity.
(Interesting that these people only learn all these facts from Hindus who have successfully defended Hindu Dharma from the accusations of casta and the rest. Until then, the same sort of westerners - including exactly such reconstructionists - had still argued 'caste system', etcetera. In fact, some of them still did so not long ago, as per a 'VR' site I chanced upon a few months back. They learn from Hindus even as they delegitimise them. An old tactic by the christowest and the christoconditioned that these 'non-christians' have inherited.)

In the Rigveda, there are multiple examples of requests for "heroes" - children who will do better in their life, beyond the abilities of their (the parents') own current skill-level. There are also examples of prayers for glory and skill, for the individual. People can improve in this life as well; they are not static. The Vedas state this.

There are also examples in Hindu literature (at large) of parents being of a lower varna that their children. So, historically, the "caste system," as it is now, was not always the rule.

We will regard the varnas in the same manner - skill-based. The varna delineation will specify qualification within religious worship.

Authenticity
No one expects the "Vedic Recon" movement to transform a foreign culture and time into ancient Vedic civilization. What people do expect is for us to worship the Vedic Gods, read the Vedas - know them and follow them.

<b>Within the Hindu community, the traditional Vedic rites are very rare and almost extinct.</b> I do not want this extinction to happen. If our community inspires Hindus to bring back the traditional Vedic rites in India, then that would be a wonderful feat. In my opinion, this would make my efforts worth a whole lot more.
(Hahahahahahahhahahahaha. Very funny. Sounds like they base their legitimacy on the assumption of the absence of the real legitimates.
The nerve: these people pretend surprise at the number of Hindus who still know Samskritam and stil practise Vedic rites. Yet it was the *westerners* - both christos and christoconditioned kinds - that have systematically discouraged Hindus from learning the Vedic rites and eliminated schools and persons doing so. Anti-brahminism, anti-Samskrita movements are all western after all.
This shocked condoling of "oh your loss is mystifying" is the same as how they play at being shocked at India's poverty after *the christowest* inflicted it.)

[continued ] 



amorphous
5/27/2005 2:59 PM  6 out of 13 

<b>Specific Replies to Shekhar's Posts</b>
The following are some specific quotes from shekhar19 and my responses (please remember that these responses are my personal views only).

<i>[My family belongs to the taittirIya or kRshNa yajur-veda and the Apastamba-charaNa - I do try to continue the practise of the ?nityAnushTAnAni? such as vedAnuvAka-paThanam, at least to the best of my ability. (The recent observance of the SrAvaNa-pUrnima upAkarma kind of reinforced the importance of these rites for me.)]</i>

<b>I am really glad to hear you say this <!--emo&Smile--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> Keep at it. It is very important.</b>
(And the condescension doesn't cease.)

<i>My understanding is that the people who have started this new movement of ?vedic reconstructionism? are westerners who are looking for an ancient and well-established religious system that they can regard as their own (playing here the ?we-are-also-indo-european-speakers? card), whether for personal ?spiritual? reasons or (at worst) the mere novelty of discovering something so old and ?exotic? to experiment with. My question is what exactly these folks are looking to ?reconstruct? for themselves?</i>

<b>Most of us are western, yes. It has nothing to do with the IE issue. We are interested in the Vedas and the Vedic Gods. All comparative studies done by a "Vedic Recon" is apart from and outside of faith and practice  a hobby.</b>
(Yes it is IE. Because earlier this person said they didn't care how the oryans got to India, assuming they 'got' to India rather than allowing for any possibility that they were Indian. They say 'it is not IE' when IE still grounds it, it is what indirectly gave them the interest to carry out rites that they <i>should not</i> be carrying out. Besides, the other vedic reconstructionist sites most certainly swear and stress "IE, IE".)

My personal reasons for being part of this effort: I have never been a member of any other religion (i.e. I am not a "religion-hopper," or dabbler). For 7 years (11-18) I stood before my parents and the minister and told them, "No, I will not undergo confirmation. I am not Christian."

Despite my mother's efforts, I read my first hymn from the Rigveda, along with other Hindu literature, at age 16 and then I understood the general direction I was to take and began studying Sanskrit and various Hindu literature on my own. I am now 26, turning 27 this year.

Essentially, I have been studying my rear off, trying to play catch up. This is not a game for me. It is not exotic. It is my life. I just want to worship the Vedic Gods in the most respectful way possible. I really don't have a better explanation other than my conviction.

<i>For one, although I am not a supporter of either casteism or ethnic prejudice, the fact is, from a traditional and orthodox point of view, it is a dvIja that becomes, through the processes of upanayanam, vedArambham and gurukula-vAsa, entitled to perform the vaidik kriyAs and, then to, after having received the appropriate dIkshA and establishing for himself the fires (by agnyAdheyam) after his marriage - and this rule was probably much more in force during the vedic period than it is now, when information about the vedas etc is more freely available to the public. How do the ?recons? plan to evade this aspect of ancient vedic religion (technically being ?avarnas?) and still maintain any sense of authenticity?</i>

I addressed part of this earlier (see Varna), but to expand - As for who can perform the rites, they definitely need to be trained and initiated. Training and initiation will dictate varna - not birth. So, the primary issue here would be the quality of training and the standards of initiation.
(These people deny the authenticity of the real initiators and trainers: they don't think there are any/many Hindus who actually know. Moreover, no such Hindus *would* actually initiate them.)

How can we ensure that those initiated to each level or station are prepared? What will they need to be prepared for and to what extent? What type of instruction can we offer to meet these standards? These are questions we are still trying to answer. If you have any ideas, general or specific, you would like to offer in this department, we would be glad to listen.

[continued...] 



amorphous
5/27/2005 2:59 PM  7 out of 13 

<i>Is the ?recon? understanding of ?vedism? based on perusing western translations of the vedic saMhitAs and articles written on the subject rather than actual (read: traditional) study of the texts in their original saMhitA / pada / krama pAThas and recitation in the correct svara, chhanda etc?</i>

In my personal circumstance - both  to the best of my current ability. I have also read Hindu references and interpretations, including but not limited to the very  let's say, modern interpretations of "the Vedas."

<b>I am interested in learning, from a trained Hindu, the definitive methods.</b> This opportunity has not been made available to me as of yet.
(At this point they admit they need Hindu help; admitting that it is Hindus who know the traditions associated with the Vedas. After learning, they will be back to proclaiming they are the legitimates and Hindus and Hindu Dharma is not. Stoopid Hindoos are so infatuated with all western interest/involvement, they may even be willing to teach what is not theirs to teach to just anyone and particularly not to delegitimizers.)

<i>And on a practical level, how do they plan to scrupulously keep to the strict ritual schedule of a vedic ahitagni with twice-daily performance of agnihotra, bi-monthly darSa-paurnamAsya ishTis, tri-annual chaturmAsya ishTis (which were based on an indian seasonal cycle) etc? Will they include such practises as paSubandhana (animal sacrifice) which hindus have since moved away from?</i>

Right now, we are carefully gathering our knowledge, experiences and resources and trying to figure out what we lack. I addressed part of this under Authenticity.

As for paashuka rites, or pashubandhana, yes - we plan to include these practices as closely as we can. We will offer actual animals, as the law provides. In the US, we can perform animal sacrifice  and if anyone wants to complain, we can point to previous Supreme Court decisions which rule in favor of animal sacrifice and to Jewish Kosher practice and allowance. At most, we may have to follow animal slaughter legislation if on public property. On private property, I don't think we have to do anything in particular. When the time comes, we will get all of the facts together for the relevant localities.

We can not, and will not, however, do traditional/literal purusamedha. The only circumstances where such practices might be "ethical" today would be execution for crimes (which we can not do because we are not a government body) and planned suicide (which is illegal, at least where I live).

I hope this expresses how serious we are.

[continued ] 



amorphous
5/27/2005 3:00 PM  8 out of 13 

<i>Also, where do ?recons? decide the line between vedic and post-vedic hinduism is to be drawn? Do they accept the saMhitAs and brAhmaNas with the angas such as the kalpa-sUtras? or the brAhmaNas with the upanishads and the darSanas? Are the itihAsas and purANas categorically rejected (although the vaidik literature does mention them as a class of scriptural writ)? Are the regulatory injunctions of the smRtis even applicable to recons? How does one begin to decide where ?vedism? ends and hinduism begins?</i>

This is actually very hard in some respects. I am glad you asked. Though this is not an official agreement, I think the following is the general direction:

caturveda: The four vedas (Rigveda, Yajurveda, Samaaveda & Atharvaveda) are the basis of our belief and practice. The first three (triveda/trayiiveda) are the ultimate authority, while the Atharvaveda, being the later addition, is regarded as "optional" (i.e. may be considered with the remaining shruti).
All other shruti: these books, including the vedaangas, are considered aids to interpretation and instructional guides to practice but will not solely dictate basic theology or faith. The trayiiveda are the authority on <b>theology and faith</b>. The upanisads may be included in this section, but are "optional" (i.e. may be included among the smriti).
smriti: Recommended reading, but holds no authority on practice, theology or faith. This includes the itihaasas and puraanas.
(And all Hindu religious literature, if you please! All while arguing that Hindus who have always done the same can't be considered as belonging under the vedic category!
Western christoconditioning and the derived Rightist attitude is astounding. 'True' version, 'True' version. But meanwhile, we steal from you, yah? You will help, won't you?)

<b>Special Topic - Pantheon: as a general rule, the pantheon which "Vedic Recons" follow includes those deities found within the Rigveda. If they aren't in the Rigveda, but found in other essential or instructional literature, then they are either epithets of a Rigvedic deity or irrelevant.</b>

I think certain aspects of practice as described in smriti, such as the manusmriti, has value. I think that these books are important references on specific issues, such as ritual purity, training, marriage, ritual timing and appropriateness, etc. These topics must be dealt with and these earlier books may (in my opinion, should) serve as limited references topics.

[continued ]
<i>I totally respect the right of any individual to explore their own spiritual paths and learn about other faith traditions - but I have my reservations about trying to create some composite ersatz version of vedic hinduism based on an ?outside? understanding of it.</i>

<b>We hope to have input and participation from those with a traditional background in Vedic literature and practice. However, this all depends on the wishes of the individual Hindu. We can't force people to help or participate <!--emo&Wink--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo--></b>
(See, they *need* Hindus to get started. This is so christoconditioning: same parasitism. But it starts off benign even as it denies validity of Hindus.)

Hindus that might be "orthodox" or "traditional" enough to be interested may also be those who view outcaste participation as inappropriate. So, it is like a catch-22. We hope to find those who will agree with the caturveda and the associated practices, but who also think that these practices, including training and initiation, should be open to "non-Hindus." That is our hope, but we also understand and respect that we may not find anyone who agrees with this premise.
(The only ones who know the traditions and are sanctioned to teach them will NEVER teach them to delegitimizers. This is because the Gods themselves don't want the delegitimizers to be taught.)



<b>Vedic Reconstructionism</b>   


amorphous
5/27/2005 3:01 PM  9 out of 13 

<i>I am sure it will be entertaining and novel to be a part of some ?vedic ecclesiastical council? of the ?order of the perfumed scorpion? (say what??) and wear self-proclaimed titles like ?hotR?, ?adhvaryu? etc but I really doubt the integrity of such a movement, especially when the vedas are concerned.</i>

I can understand your doubt. Though they have already taken the titles (more as a goal than a statement of full accomplishment), the people you speak of are still learning about their positions. In my opinion, it will be quite awhile before all the positions are fully understood and filled. <b>Again, this is my personal opinion - I hope we gain traditionally trained individuals to help this process.</b>
(More parasitism: steal and leave for dead.)

<i>The very sound of the vedas is considered sacred in hindu dharma. They are literally the Sabda-brahman, and to lightly throw them around, mispronouncing mantras and clumsily attempting the performance of kriyAs is, from a vedic perspective, more likely to produce negative, even disastrous, consequences (vide. the story of tvashtR in the brAhmaNas). In fact the SAstras specifically instruct brAhmins not to pronounce any text in the accent of a ?mleccha?, which is thought to destroy its potency (tasmAd na brAhmaNo mlecched / asuryA ha eshA vAk).</i>

You are 100% correct. I am advocating the education of every "Vedic Recon" - at minimum - in devanaagarii and proper pronunciation. I feel this help dramatically because each character represents a sound - one sound and one sound only - which is very unlike the Roman alphabet and its' relationship with English. Regardless of comprehension, learning the script will help this aspect. From there, we can build up towards other specific goals.

As for the place of foreign language in practice - we all agree that allowances have to be made for native languages, such as English, but we have not yet agreed on what aspects will require Sanskrit. I am in favor of doing all traditional rites in (Vedic) Sanskrit only, and providing classes for interpretation. I think we all agree that there will probably have to be some sort of <b>simplified home worship, like Hindu puujaa</b>. This is where I think native language may really have a place. What do you think?
(But indology proclaims that Hindu Puja is a novelty, etcetera. Stealy, stealy. Of course home pujas or their equivalents are there in all TRADITIONAL religions like Shinto, Roman and Greek traditions.)

Also, this quote - 1. Where is this quote specifically from; and 2. could it also be a reference to or be applied to what Christians consider "glossalalia" or "speaking in tongues"?

[continued ] 



amorphous
5/27/2005 3:02 PM  10 out of 13 

<i>I don?t see why people outside the tradition would choose such an ?exclusive? and insular aspect of hinduism as brAhmanic vedism for themselves <b>(eg. if a recon had to attend a Srauta-yAga such as agnishTomam, they would be treated as ?bAhirvedi? and not allowed past the boundaries of the yajna-SAla).</b> It is rather the bhakti-inspired sampradAyas such as the gaudiya vaiSnavas (represented in the west by ISKCON) who are more inclusive and welcoming when it comes to ?converts?, regardless of caste and background. Movements that have carried the message of vedAnta philosophy to western countries (such as the rAmakRshna mission) also share this attitude.</i>

I really don't have a specific explanation - at least for myself. I can say that I disagree with the vedaanta perspective. <b>I feel that the Vedic Gods and practices have been eclipsed and I am working to create a respectful context for them.</b> It will not be exactly as it was - in my opinion, no "reconstructionist" religion can ever guarantee otherwise - but I will work hard to make it as honest as possible yet work with modern technology and attitudes.

I wish that we could be included in traditional worship - but it does not seem possible.

<i>(I don?t mean for this post to offend, but these are just a few concerns as a hindu..)</i>

I am not offended. I share many of your concerns and I appreciate your posts <!--emo&Smile--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->

<i>Creating their own artificial hierarchy of priests in imitation of the vedic one isn?t likely to have much authenticity or credibility outside their own ranks.</i>

This may be the case. <b>I hope that we can achieve credibility in Hinduism</b>, but I do not expect we will for a number of reasons. I will suggest we qualify our titles and certifications to specify that we are not traditionally trained, out of respect. This may be the best solution.
(Yes, like the earlier christians sought credibility from the Jews, and failing that....)

<i>It is quite another thing however to become scholars of the vedic tradition in an academic sense, as many learned westerners already have. It is also possible to help sponsor the maintenance of vedic schools in india and the preservation of the vedic heritage within the communities that uphold it.</i>

Yes it is (on both accounts). We always promote scholarship on <b>Vedism</b> (sick) and we will definitely try to sic Schools in India in the future - regardless of our association or cooperation. It is very important that the traditional schools continue.

<i>These are probably better options than attempting to recreate a half-baked replica of vedism based on culturally foreign interpretations.</i>

I thought about just becoming a <b>Vedic scholar</b>  but I want a tangible system of belief and practice to pass down to my children and their children. And, as harsh as it may seem, I just can't accept, "No," as an answer from Hinduism. I am not going to give up my conviction because I am not allowed to join a closed tradition.
(Why can't these people find their own traditions? Their real Gods exist forever, and so do their real ancestral traditions. When they search for their Gods, their Gods will guide them back. It is from their Gods that their traditions were derived and their Gods will help with the proper revivalism of their traditions, as opposed to artificial 'reconstructions' of any tradition.)

If that is what we create - "a half-baked replica of vedism" - I would say that is better than nothing. I can't sit back and do nothing because I was not born Hindu (of course, I am a woman and would not be allowed, at least as the tradition is practiced today, to participate to the greatest level anyhow). So, this is better than nothing  at least I will be following my conscience and I can tell the Gods I tried.
(Half-baked is "partially/half" done, right? It's not half-baked. It's simply incorrect. It's not a 'replica' to any degree in any sense.)

[continued ] 



amorphous
5/27/2005 3:02 PM  11 out of 13 

<i>i do support the efforts of reconstructionists to revitalise their national and ethno-cultural heritage ? but i do not think the veda should be distorted just to fill out the spaces they?re missing.</i>

I hope you understand that this is not what we are trying to do. I cannot speak for everyone else on the thread or websites - but I can speak for myself - and I can give you some insight on the guys at the <b>Perfumed Scorpion</b>. I met the founders awhile back and we have decided to work together towards an acceptable <b>formulation</b>. I bring a unique perspective to the process because I have studied various Hindu traditions and philosophies in-depth and have actively worked in the community. They come from a different perspective and we are still comparing notes and working out differences.

Besides numerous telephone conversations, emails and file swaps, I met with them in upstate NY last October and they are sincerely trying to do the right thing. They are completely devoted and they are willing to put their money where their mouth is, which is rare. <b>They have committed resources to building a strong financial foundation for our movement, which will include temples.</b> We are moving slowly and cautiously  we do not expect all of our goals to be fulfilled in our lifetime. We only expect to set the foundations for a self-sustaining movement.
(But the indologists and their believers are always declaring that Hindu temples have nothing to do with the Vedas.)

Right now, we are in the process of sorting out a lot of information and ideas - which we welcome input from those knowledgeable in the Vedas and the traditional practice. The Perfumed Scorpion website is not 100% up to par in regards to process and is not a measure of where we are or what we will establish in regards to practice. We are still organizing - and we have not even revealed our name as of yet (it will not be the Perfumed Scorpion). Please excuse the present online gap.

We all know that we are not going to "resurrect" an ancient religion, but we are going to, inevitably (whether we like it or not), create something different. You are right - this is a different time and place. But we are trying to specifically lay out those differences and set acceptable boundaries. <b>If you would like to advise us and help us establish these boundaries, we would be indebted.</b>
(Yes, every 'let's interpret the Vedas the RIGHT way' ends up inventing a new religion, most particularly when the west does it.
And again, they're making a move on knowledgeable Hindus to help them get set up. In other words: to teach them everything, since they simply *cannot* know the proper way of doing a thing without Hindus having taught them either directly or indirectly.)

<b>You have no idea how excited I was to see your posts. It is truly hard to find someone as knowledgeable in Vedic practices, as you have demonstrated</b>, who is also willing to talk about it. I have spent several days writing these posts to make sure they were as thorough and accurate as possible so that you can get a sense of where we are, what issues we are dealing with (which you already know the important challenges <!--emo&Wink--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->, what we are trying to do and to what extent. I hope that you will not be disappointed, and I hope that whether you agree with our efforts or not, that you will find some use in our goals.
(Check the condescension! "It's a miracle Hindus who know about Vedic rites exist!"
Actually, this Hindu - 'Shekhar' - ought to know he shouldn't be dialoguing with such people on this matter at all. Maybe it's naivete on his part, but no other Hindu would ever do it.)

Thank you for posting, shekhar. I truly appreciate it.

[antaadi] 


(Another posterSmile
<b>xthanex</b>
5/30/2005 9:40 AM  12 out of 13 

An outstanding thread! Very extensive and informative.

I have had the unenviable position of being one of the more frequent posters on all matters Vedic. <b>This is especially sad because I am NOT a Vedic Recon. I was an Asatruar (Norse Recon) who has progressed into a broader Proto-Indo-European student, exploring the similarities of the various IE religions.
Having said that, my knowledge is limited to Western translations of the Vedas and the works of figures such as MacDonnell, Griswold, Keith, Oldenberg, and Doniger.</b>

I am glad to see we have someone more knowledgeable out here to handle matters.

Sincerely,
Aydan

amorphous
5/30/2005 2:28 PM  13 out of 13 

<b>Well, shekhar knows his stuff, dude. It is truly rare to find someone with that much traditional experience and knowledge about Vedic practice. You are in the presence of a true master <!--emo&Wink--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo--></b>
(Oh the HYSTERIA! Shekhar is supposedly RARE? Hahahahahaha.
And the condescension is <i>amaaazing</i>. Westerners don't know anything about the existence of relatively LARGE numbers of traditional brahmanas - Hindus <i>of course</i> - traditionally versed in the Vedas in India. Western people only know of ISKCON, Arya Samaj and other visible organisations, and hence draw the conclusion that traditional Hindus don't exist. But just because silent Hindus are made invisible by their silence does not mean they are non-existent. Fortunately, no such Hindus would EVER teach delegitimising parasitical pseudo-friendly orgs - that are friendly while they need your help to learn, after which they start badmouthing and invalidating Hindu Dharma and Hindus in order to corner the legitimacy for themselves.)

Well, I will be glad to help you with the Sanskrit part. Teaching is learning, dude... and I have plenty of learning to do <!--emo&Smile--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->

Like I said up there somewhere, the best and first place to start is with the script. <b>Learning devanaagarii removes you from English and places you in a special space - plus you can read Hindi without too much effort.</b>

<b>A short plug about Hindi: I had the pleasure of hearing Fareed Zakaria</b> a few months back in Richmond and he made a great point. Most Americans learn Spanish or French. Spanish definitely has a purpose, but French - there are only 50 million French in the world, but it is #2 most popularly studied foreign language in the US. We still focus on French while just as many people in China learn English as in the US. Plus, India has 1 billion people, and their official language is Hindi.

With the rise of India and China, we should be learning Hindi or Mandarin - not freakin' French.

So, this is my point - anyone who learns devanaagarii for Sanskrit will also be adding a relevant, real- world skill to their belt. Only a few more characters, and you can read Hindi.

[end devanaagarii plug]

Interested? >Wink

Anyway - thanks for bringing up the topic of Vedic Reconstructionism. Hopefully there will be a lot more talk on Beliefnet about the topic soon. Should be fun <!--emo&Smile--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

2. There was some India-focused list were a "sanskritist" (western person, of course) described himself as a "vedik" (or "vedic", can't remember spelling). In the same list there were other indologists who were talking about how Hindu fundamentalism was victimising muslims in India and that Hindus were fascist. The "sanskritist-vedik-indologist" agreed. Naturally.
I don't remember enough keywords to track the page, but IIRC there were also mentions of "Hindoootva" and more.

3. There used to be many "vedic reconstructionist" web sites out there. All westerners - of course - who think the Hindus don't know much about the Vedas. And of course, they knew only Arya Samaj and ISKCON to gauge what Hindus know of the Vedas.

The reconstructionists called themselves 'brahmins' or something ('real' brahmins, which they contrasted against the 'eviL Hindoo brahmins' who were still imposing the caste system on the other Hindoos in India). According to them, Vedas are not Hindu Dharma ("hinduism") and Hindu Dharma is not Vedic. Of course, their claims (and arguments for proof) came from IE theory.


I have long been (independently) of the same opinion as the following expressed by the Hellenes at ysee.gr:
http://ysee.gr/index-eng.php?type=english&f=faq#24
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Are you Pagans?
The term 'Pagan', which in the original Latin is derived from Paganus (peasant), is yet another insult used by the victorious Christians since the 4th Century, to belittle what remained of the Native Religions.

They used this to label all those remaining loyal to their Ethnic Traditions, to imply that they were uneducated and uncouth villagers. The term was used for centuries in most European languages to refer to the Ethnikoi. <b>In the 20th Century, it was reintroduced with the suffix neo (viz. Neopaganism), by various Christian-inspired devotees of Esotericism and the New Age. 'Neopaganism' doesn't concern us. It may even be a manufactured ploy to detract from the current world rule of the so-called 'Monotheists'.</b><!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Despite its inconsistent name indicating that it is a trackback of an original tradition, "Vedic reconstructionism" is neopaganism.
Reconstructionism is the process of recreating something that existed.
But neopaganism is a name for a set of modern beliefs/religions that people think existed earlier but which didn't, not in the way they imagine now that it existed then. (And some of the neopagan religions didn't even exist in any form in the past.)
Such a phenomenon happens when the canvas is made blank, and people are left to imagine anything and everything. Vedic reconstructionism parallels PIE reconstruction.

Vedic reconstructionism was invented during British colonialism. It didn't have that name then, but all the sankriticists/indologists - especially those that seemed a bit in infatuated with the texts and the language and the oryan fable - were all convinced they knew what really happened and what the Vedas were really about. (This certainty on their part derived from their assumption that their interpretations, based on merely reading and their study of Samskritam, was sufficient to suppose that they knew better.) They started the process of delegitimising traditional Hindus' knowledge of the Vedas. Now the lay westerners have taken this on themselves. It's actually a side-product of christoconditioning. They often go to India to 'study' the Hindus and their traditions and to decide where they are right and wrong. They often learn some sort of 'Vedic' practices (of course they learn it from people who don't know, because people who *do* know would actually NEVER teach them).

I am sure there are many Hindus or Indians out there who would take the above 'vedic reconstructionism' movement as a compliment and think this is somehow something good. It's not really. There used to be many "vedic reconstructionist" sites that referred to how Hindus did not know the Vedas, that Hindus had no right to say it was theirs and that Hindus were rather ignorant and were definitely not Vedic. Some were quite openly anti-Hindu - it somehow bothered them that Hindus made some supposedly 'illegitimate' claim to the literature and the 'Vedic religion'. And they all definitely believed that the west has the claim on the Vedas (that their ancestors wrote it somehow - using dollops of the IE story). At least one had written a book sold at famous online bookstores on the matter of the "real vedics", i.e. vedic reconstructionism. It starts off with how Hindus in India don't know ('lost the tradition'), that Hindu Dharma is not really related, IE and consequently reclamation of what is 'their' religion, etcetera.

While the above comments at 'beliefnet' are not anti-Hindu in the same manner/to the same extent/at the surface, the seeds of their antagonism starts from there: the beliefnet comments show they still believe that they know better, that Hindus don't know, that traditional brahmanas are very few and incredibly rare (even though actually traditional brahmanas are still rather common in some parts of Bharatam), expressing shock-surprise-sadness at the rarity of knowledge in Samskritam and Vedic rites when they ought to know who caused this (that it's NOT Hindus), their expression of how they wish Hindus would learn the 'proper Vedic religion' which these people have been 'studying and practising' properly. All this means they are already in the delegitimising phase. It's a small step from there to the next ones where the conscious and overt anti-Hindu nature sets in.

The term "vedic" as per western interpretations means a separate religion from Hindu Dharma and that the Gods mentioned in the Vedas are somehow separate. In Hindu Dharma, Vedic just means 'of the Vedas', 'versed in the Vedas', to do with the knowledge, rites, conduct, etcetera, derived from them and its times.

Many westerners who initially purported to reconstruct other European religions eventually leave to join a PIE reconstructionist movement. That's because their reconstructions of their original European religion (like the example case of the Asatru person in the comment above) essentially operated under assumptions of IE/PIE.
(As far as I know, the traditional Icelandic Asatruar as well as the Hellenes of ysee.gr don't do that.
They're revivalists and their traditions have survived and don't need reconstruction, or not much and which can be done successfully
But from reading different sites, I know that European Reconstructionists do assume IE: from Slavonic to Asatru-<i>reconstructionism</i> - they all base their reconstructionism off "PIE", and the alleged "PIE religion" and "IE religions".)
By using PIE, christowest has a lot of control over the creation and eventual abandoning of revivals of actual traditions. Belief in PIE in reconstructing religions means revivals are not genuine and don't last (because people are merely constructing an *idea* of some religion they imagine existed).


I agree with the following, with some additional qualification added at the end:
http://ysee.gr/index-eng.php?type=english&f=faq#17
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Does Ethnic Hellenic religion engage in proselytizing?</b>
Certainly not, we are dealing here with a clearly <b>ethnic polytheistic (natural) religion</b>, that is to say one that concerns a very specific Ethnos. <b>If a non-Hellenic origin wants to honor our Gods, then he is always welcome to decide this for himself, as we will never try to convince him.</b><!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Those wanting to honour Hindu Gods (and yes, Vedic Gods ARE Hindu Gods) do so properly: Not everyone (i.e. the christoconditioned engaged in delegitimising Hindus/Hindu Dharma, however 'kindly' they start off with) is allowed to just recite the Vedas and carry out Vedic practices. But that doesn't mean Hindus would interfere with their attempts. It's the Gods themselves who won't bother.
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