01-17-2005, 01:47 PM
Ashok,
I have to address your last post point by point.
I am saying , let the law take its course. I am saying Hinduism is not dependent on any matha or sampradaya. Thousands of sampradayas have existed and over time many ceased to exist and new ones sprouted. This process will be repeated in future too. This is the strenght of Hinduism, it has many roots, it continually remoulds itself. In this sense there is no harm if Kanchi exists or not.
But I am concerned about the monks there and their future. It is for this reason that I suggested that kanchi be handed over to Sringeri, or the monks be transferred there. Simple common sense. No one seems to care about the monks who have dedicated their lives in pursuit of moksha, rather attention to pride, the traditions, the name(fame) seems to be the guiding principles in defending the matha and arguments for it, and emotions and attachments, and equating the kanchi matha with Hinduism.
I have not heard one word form the matha accepting these events as their karma and that they will deal with it. Just pointing fingers. Hindus dont do that.
I also think that kanchi will serve as a reminder to all other mathas, temples and institutions to reexamine themselves and make changes, and know for certain that we are not in the medieval ages where name and fame will protect them. I also think that the 5 shankara mathas and most other Hindu monasteries, are medieval Hindu institutions, still living in a medieval caste culture, dependent on the name of its founder for its hallowedness, and peoples patronage and have outlived the age, living on borrowed time.
How can any human being support, a 'spiritual monastery' mind you, that has segregated dining, segregated hostels and temples. Have we all lost our minds to accept this, or so droned that we can somehow eke out an explanation and try see some merit in this?
Not one person in the world is any more or less important than the other. There is no great or small. This is the vedic view. When we begin to see as one greater or lesser, therein begins the hierarchy and discrimination, and we all know what the end result is, and what this sampradaya unflinchingly stood for. They stood for an unvedic view, and so did their patrons.
In the galaxy of Hindu saints and sages, I dont see how one is more elevated than the other. This thinking of importance is egoistic thinking, and only egoists promote such views.
I said it will be challenged, not doomed. I do not think low of it, instead as one of the pinnacles of Hindu philosophy, and every one of them supplement the others.
Just because it carries the name of Shankara does not give it invincibility or unquestioning authority. Because I say this, know for certain I am no drone. Today, everthing in Hinduism will be challenged and no more blind acceptance and awed fascination.
We are tired of endless repetition by rote, which any parrot can do, and most priests in India too do by rote without knowing its meanings. And all this book quoting is just drone culture, and drones do that. They have no mind, or its closed to other parts of the sastras. Why dont they quote from the vedas? Thats because they will be ashamed of themselves.
Did you read my post where I said Hinduism is a family of religions or sects, a family of hundreds of sampradayas? Do you understand what a family means - siblings from the same father - the vedas? Or do you read just to try and find fault?
Abuse of power cannot be justified. I still dont see an abuse of power by the TN govt and police. Again I am not following the mass drone culture of shouting foul at the police, the govt, the b1tch and just about everthing. I think they have followed the law and what is required of investigations. There has been no abuse of justice as the trial has not begun. There has been no abuse of justice as the SC has allowed bail.
Karmic retribution is certain for everyone, including brahmins. You belive it, no? Or are there exceptions for some like ascestics?
Again, discriminate, and you will be discriminated upon.
You too Ashok? This will pain you for a long time. Everyone can be judged by their work and mine work speaks clearly.
The way Hindus villify other Hindus and cast aspersions is shameful. I have criticised kanchi and the smarthas, but this is a topic of discussion and I have stated my reasons. I have not been abusive of any member in this forum, but I have not received the same cordiality.
Yes as a sage-scholar his accomplishments must be lauded. But the point is, as evolving souls no one is higher or lesser. If you dont hold the view that all souls are no more important than any animal, dog or tree, then its telling of egoism and its tendency to differentiate and discriminate, and its telling that the walk on the spiritual path has not yet begun. Its still the book quoting routine which carries the burden of egoism.
I work with no expectation of the results. Let us see to whom this verse applies.
The late Bhavisya tried to integrate Buddha as an incarnation, therefore the general acceptance.
Buddha is not a Hindu and has been condemned by our saints, and the religion chased away from the subcontinent. Or do you want to take counsel from Buddha? Your choice.
The buddhist nations of the world today is telling on their religion. Sri Lanka, Myanmar, promiscuous Thailand, fallen Angkor and genocidal Cambodia, and communist Vietnam.
She is wise. Throw away your books Ashok and listen to her. Be free of the constrictions and limiting framework that it impels. And I may add that, 'anyone giving pain to ANYBODY will invite suffering for himself and his family.
Regarding the respect to sadhus, you telling this to an ex-monk?
Pathma
I have to address your last post point by point.
Quote:1. You see no big harm in destruction of kAnchi Matha and sampradAya.
I am saying , let the law take its course. I am saying Hinduism is not dependent on any matha or sampradaya. Thousands of sampradayas have existed and over time many ceased to exist and new ones sprouted. This process will be repeated in future too. This is the strenght of Hinduism, it has many roots, it continually remoulds itself. In this sense there is no harm if Kanchi exists or not.
But I am concerned about the monks there and their future. It is for this reason that I suggested that kanchi be handed over to Sringeri, or the monks be transferred there. Simple common sense. No one seems to care about the monks who have dedicated their lives in pursuit of moksha, rather attention to pride, the traditions, the name(fame) seems to be the guiding principles in defending the matha and arguments for it, and emotions and attachments, and equating the kanchi matha with Hinduism.
I have not heard one word form the matha accepting these events as their karma and that they will deal with it. Just pointing fingers. Hindus dont do that.
I also think that kanchi will serve as a reminder to all other mathas, temples and institutions to reexamine themselves and make changes, and know for certain that we are not in the medieval ages where name and fame will protect them. I also think that the 5 shankara mathas and most other Hindu monasteries, are medieval Hindu institutions, still living in a medieval caste culture, dependent on the name of its founder for its hallowedness, and peoples patronage and have outlived the age, living on borrowed time.
How can any human being support, a 'spiritual monastery' mind you, that has segregated dining, segregated hostels and temples. Have we all lost our minds to accept this, or so droned that we can somehow eke out an explanation and try see some merit in this?
Quote:2. You see shrI Adi-shankara as a mere grain of sand
Not one person in the world is any more or less important than the other. There is no great or small. This is the vedic view. When we begin to see as one greater or lesser, therein begins the hierarchy and discrimination, and we all know what the end result is, and what this sampradaya unflinchingly stood for. They stood for an unvedic view, and so did their patrons.
In the galaxy of Hindu saints and sages, I dont see how one is more elevated than the other. This thinking of importance is egoistic thinking, and only egoists promote such views.
Quote:3. You are happy to imagine that advaita-vedanta is on its way to doom, or at least think very low of it
I said it will be challenged, not doomed. I do not think low of it, instead as one of the pinnacles of Hindu philosophy, and every one of them supplement the others.
Just because it carries the name of Shankara does not give it invincibility or unquestioning authority. Because I say this, know for certain I am no drone. Today, everthing in Hinduism will be challenged and no more blind acceptance and awed fascination.
Quote:4. You said something like 'we are tired of hearing shri bhagavan uvacha'
We are tired of endless repetition by rote, which any parrot can do, and most priests in India too do by rote without knowing its meanings. And all this book quoting is just drone culture, and drones do that. They have no mind, or its closed to other parts of the sastras. Why dont they quote from the vedas? Thats because they will be ashamed of themselves.
Quote:5. You think vaishnavism is a different religion than shaivism
Did you read my post where I said Hinduism is a family of religions or sects, a family of hundreds of sampradayas? Do you understand what a family means - siblings from the same father - the vedas? Or do you read just to try and find fault?
Quote:6. You believe that brahmins deserve some sort of 'karmic' retribution, and any abuse of justice or power is OK and understandable if Brahmins are punished, even after they have become ascetics.
Abuse of power cannot be justified. I still dont see an abuse of power by the TN govt and police. Again I am not following the mass drone culture of shouting foul at the police, the govt, the b1tch and just about everthing. I think they have followed the law and what is required of investigations. There has been no abuse of justice as the trial has not begun. There has been no abuse of justice as the SC has allowed bail.
Karmic retribution is certain for everyone, including brahmins. You belive it, no? Or are there exceptions for some like ascestics?
Again, discriminate, and you will be discriminated upon.
Quote:So let me say it as mildly as I can: You are anti-hindu and a caste-bigot.
You too Ashok? This will pain you for a long time. Everyone can be judged by their work and mine work speaks clearly.
The way Hindus villify other Hindus and cast aspersions is shameful. I have criticised kanchi and the smarthas, but this is a topic of discussion and I have stated my reasons. I have not been abusive of any member in this forum, but I have not received the same cordiality.
Quote:As far as I am concerned, I am not even a millionths of a grain of sand in front of ShrI Adi Shankara. So there is no point in me trying to reach upto the head of yours which according to you is placed so high that even shri Adi shankara appears to you like a grain of sand.
Yes as a sage-scholar his accomplishments must be lauded. But the point is, as evolving souls no one is higher or lesser. If you dont hold the view that all souls are no more important than any animal, dog or tree, then its telling of egoism and its tendency to differentiate and discriminate, and its telling that the walk on the spiritual path has not yet begun. Its still the book quoting routine which carries the burden of egoism.
Quote:But your version of the future is NOT going to pass. Because I think the universe is not run according to the wishes of the people who were described thus in the Kathopanishad:
avidyAyAm antare vidyamAnAH svayaM-dhIrAH paNDitammanymAnAH
dandramyamAnAH pariyanti mUDhAH andhena nIyamAnAH yathAndhAH
I work with no expectation of the results. Let us see to whom this verse applies.
Quote:By the way I read a comment by you on your forum which was something like 'I don't understand why Indians respect Budhha so much'
The same Gautam Buddha when advising Ajatashatru's prime minister VassakAra had said that as long as the people of vaishAlI keep on respecting the arhats (monks, sAdhus etc of any religion, not just Budhhists), they cannot be defeated.
The late Bhavisya tried to integrate Buddha as an incarnation, therefore the general acceptance.
Buddha is not a Hindu and has been condemned by our saints, and the religion chased away from the subcontinent. Or do you want to take counsel from Buddha? Your choice.
The buddhist nations of the world today is telling on their religion. Sri Lanka, Myanmar, promiscuous Thailand, fallen Angkor and genocidal Cambodia, and communist Vietnam.
Quote:My mother said anyone who gives pain to a sAdhu reaps suffering for himself and his family. She didnt say a brahmin sAdhu, she meant any sAdhu.
That is what India thinks of its holy people. You are so far removed from the soul of India that you can't comprehend this yet. And I hope this little tidbit about Gautama Buddha tells you how Indians think about arhats, bhikhus, monks, sanyasis in general. And why Indians have so much respect for Buddha too.
She is wise. Throw away your books Ashok and listen to her. Be free of the constrictions and limiting framework that it impels. And I may add that, 'anyone giving pain to ANYBODY will invite suffering for himself and his family.
Regarding the respect to sadhus, you telling this to an ex-monk?
Pathma