07-05-2009, 02:17 PM
(This post was last modified: 07-05-2009, 03:09 PM by Bharatvarsh.)
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->With "against nature", did Plato mean it doesn't occur in nature or that, because it produces no offspring, it can be regarded as being unproductive, hence (?) "against nature".
Well, if the former, then it may be because Plato didn't get to see National Geographic's entry (was it?) on homosexuality in the animal world - mammals, birds, insects. (Not that NatGeo is the most scientific or reliable of all natural-world/doco-type outlets, but it's infinitely more reliable than say the modern christist unscience that's been clocking overtime to shout down these findings.)<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He meant that it produces no offspring & hence unnatural. It is another matter modern day authors twist what he said to mean that he was an enthusiastic advocate of homosexuality!!
There has been a court case about this, check the following link:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->In fact the writings of Plato contain numerous condemnations of homosexual intercourse. Perhaps the bluntest and most withering comes in Laws 636c. Here Plato, speaking through the character of the Athenian stranger, rejects homosexual behavior as "unnatural" (para physin), describes it as an "enormity" or "crime" (tolmema), and explains that it derives from being enslaved to pleasure. Finnis had cited this passage, among others, to show that Plato, among other great pre-Christian thinkers, rejected homosexual acts on moral grounds. Thus, Nussbaum faced the daunting task of explaining away what appears to be Plato's clear condemnation of acts she had claimed no pre-Christian philosopher had ever objected to.
http://www.firstthings.com/print/article/2...t=500&width=700<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And yes that "Martha Nussbaum" mentioned there is the same as the anti Hindu one we know.
In Symposium he has Alcibiades sleep next to Socrates & make sexual advances which Socrates resists leading Alcibiades to say that he (Socrates) acted in a way that would "befit a father or older brother" & yearned for a "higher beauty" that was spiritual.
Aristotle also condemned homosexuality.
I am not saying we take their word as gospel but because the pre Christian Hellenic culture does not have many living descendants today it is easy for people to twist things whichever way they want to & get away with it.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->IIRC, it was Sparta's men who at one point were predominantly homosexual (?), but all had stay-at-home wives for babies as well (to produce future generations of Spartans). If I didn't confuse history entirely, then one can't really envy the Spartan females of that period.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How could it be possible that any society has homosexual predominance?
Even today with tolerance of homosexuality in the West the vast majority of males are heterosexual.
I don't think it is accurate to describe them as homosexual because what they had was a system pedagogy where the younger recruits in the agoge were attached to an older male who was to be their teacher & mentor, presumably sex was involved in this relationship but even that I am not sure about as there was an Athenian writer named Xenophon who assures that the relationship was only spiritual & not sexual, he is referred to in this lecture at 36 minutes:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wP1POpsqin4
But the lecturer then assures us that this wasn't true, on what basis I don't know.
It may also be the case that homosexuality was more prevalent in Spartan society as the males spent a very good part of their life in the agoge in the military with only other males around, kinda like how people take to homosexuality in prisons today.
The Spartan females had more freedom compared to females in other Greek states, they took part in athletic contests etc. The Spartans were a totally militarized society, they believed that the women had to be sturdy & strong to produce healthy children, they practiced a precussor to modern eugenics whereby they left unhealthy infants to die of exposure because they thought that these infants would never make it through the harsh military training in the Spartan agoge.
Well, if the former, then it may be because Plato didn't get to see National Geographic's entry (was it?) on homosexuality in the animal world - mammals, birds, insects. (Not that NatGeo is the most scientific or reliable of all natural-world/doco-type outlets, but it's infinitely more reliable than say the modern christist unscience that's been clocking overtime to shout down these findings.)<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He meant that it produces no offspring & hence unnatural. It is another matter modern day authors twist what he said to mean that he was an enthusiastic advocate of homosexuality!!
There has been a court case about this, check the following link:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->In fact the writings of Plato contain numerous condemnations of homosexual intercourse. Perhaps the bluntest and most withering comes in Laws 636c. Here Plato, speaking through the character of the Athenian stranger, rejects homosexual behavior as "unnatural" (para physin), describes it as an "enormity" or "crime" (tolmema), and explains that it derives from being enslaved to pleasure. Finnis had cited this passage, among others, to show that Plato, among other great pre-Christian thinkers, rejected homosexual acts on moral grounds. Thus, Nussbaum faced the daunting task of explaining away what appears to be Plato's clear condemnation of acts she had claimed no pre-Christian philosopher had ever objected to.
http://www.firstthings.com/print/article/2...t=500&width=700<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And yes that "Martha Nussbaum" mentioned there is the same as the anti Hindu one we know.
In Symposium he has Alcibiades sleep next to Socrates & make sexual advances which Socrates resists leading Alcibiades to say that he (Socrates) acted in a way that would "befit a father or older brother" & yearned for a "higher beauty" that was spiritual.
Aristotle also condemned homosexuality.
I am not saying we take their word as gospel but because the pre Christian Hellenic culture does not have many living descendants today it is easy for people to twist things whichever way they want to & get away with it.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->IIRC, it was Sparta's men who at one point were predominantly homosexual (?), but all had stay-at-home wives for babies as well (to produce future generations of Spartans). If I didn't confuse history entirely, then one can't really envy the Spartan females of that period.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How could it be possible that any society has homosexual predominance?
Even today with tolerance of homosexuality in the West the vast majority of males are heterosexual.
I don't think it is accurate to describe them as homosexual because what they had was a system pedagogy where the younger recruits in the agoge were attached to an older male who was to be their teacher & mentor, presumably sex was involved in this relationship but even that I am not sure about as there was an Athenian writer named Xenophon who assures that the relationship was only spiritual & not sexual, he is referred to in this lecture at 36 minutes:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wP1POpsqin4
But the lecturer then assures us that this wasn't true, on what basis I don't know.
It may also be the case that homosexuality was more prevalent in Spartan society as the males spent a very good part of their life in the agoge in the military with only other males around, kinda like how people take to homosexuality in prisons today.
The Spartan females had more freedom compared to females in other Greek states, they took part in athletic contests etc. The Spartans were a totally militarized society, they believed that the women had to be sturdy & strong to produce healthy children, they practiced a precussor to modern eugenics whereby they left unhealthy infants to die of exposure because they thought that these infants would never make it through the harsh military training in the Spartan agoge.