08-20-2009, 10:39 PM
Kaushal, My reply was to the perception that the article was aimed at India and Hindus. My point is its internal to the Western thought process for the terms I used are all Western. I should have been more clear.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Please explain the train of thought. Why do they suddenly feel they are Hindus now? Not before and not after?
Wasnt US created by Puritans and dont they have "In God we trust"? Do they now trust i gods? Are godesses not to far in the future?
has the Cultural revoultion hit home? Were Ravi Shankar, Rajneesh, and Deepak Chopra etc finally triumphant? Is New Age taking over?
Where does pagansm without idols fit in?
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reply
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->This article described postmodern thought...and not specifically Hinduism.
The whole "what is right for you is right for you, what is right for me is right for me" idea is flawed at the core. We can dress it up however we like, but it's all the same. "There is NO absolute Truth" is the essential truth.
Evangelical Christians (white, and other races too...it's petty to use race as a defining factor in an article like that imho, but I digress) believe in an absolute Truth - a plumbline by which we measure all else. This is why Christianity is hated by so many. There mere act of believing the Bible is an assault on other beliefs.
The public schools teach postmodern thought at every turn. It's sometimes subtle, sometimes not. This, more than differences of opinion in science and history, is the reason so many Christians pull their kids out. The *Worldview* is as different as night and day. The stats are no suprise to me.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Americans were being brainwashed and trained in the last 30 years to be tolerant and
live a multi racial world with different religions
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->My dh is 10 years older than I (I'm 35). He hates wearing his seatbelt. I Always put mine on, usually before I even start the car. I recycle, he does, but only b/c I get on him .
My point? I believe it's b/c of what we learned in school. His generation wasn't taught, aka brainwashed, to do either; however when I was in school, both of those things were pushed at every opportunity. As was tolerance and unity amongst cultures. I can't count how many times I was shown the kids from different nations, standing in circles, holding hands with big old smiles on their faces.
Now, the examples I gave are not bad things, but I use them to point out how in ps I was showered and showered by a certain agenda and much of it stuck.
With the influence of all the things I mentioned earlier in this post, I'm not surprised at all of the swing in the Universalism direction.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->I think the Hindu thing is a red herring, as of course, these views are not Hindu, per se, even if they have something in common with Hinduism.
It seems like three possibilities are being raised here.
1. It's the current political correctness: I'm okay, you're okay.
2. It's the reality of living in a multi-cultural, multi-faith society. If you have good neighbors who are Muslim/Jewish/Agnostic, it's hard to wrap your mind around the fact that they may, in fact, be spending the afterlife in hell.<b>
3. It's a religious shift similar to what happened ~1800, where universalism is on the rise vis a vis other flavors of Christianity.</b> Much of the 20th Century was about the rise of evangelical Christianity and maybe this is a reaction. (Of course, that could still leave #1 partially responsible for causing this shift.)
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Universalism with a broader world view is in.
Post modernism view is being established in the last of the EJ strong hold in the world for a universal NT
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
and comments on newsweek webiste by BRf member
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Did'nt know where to post this, but since it is in context to the Newsweek articl on "We are all Hindu's now", this is one one of the finest concise expositions on Hinduism as explained to the uninitiated along with some reactions to it:
<!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Posted By: cpgmm @ 08/18/2009 11:07:41 AM
Context 1:
Western concept of liberty as a political system: e.g. "Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness". It's a very broad framework. It does not go into the minutia or stipulate what it is that would make you happy etc.. Does it mean, that you can bring in a rigid system of communism or fascism ideology under that framework of "LLPH"? Obviously not since those political ideologies would violate the basic framework of liberty in the political context. However, you can still have socialism as normative values within the frame work of "LLPH".
Now apply the same concept when it comes to Hindu religion vs a vis other religions. There is no set ideology that Hindus should adhere, to be a Hindu.. Hinduism is freedom of spiritual quest for an individual as long as the framework is not violated. if you insist that your belief or ideology is the only true one and every other faith is in violation, then you are violating the basic freedom of spiritual quest and most Hindus would not accept that as being Hindu.
Context 2:
Another illustration is how western liberal ideology is pilloried by some conservative society of the world by pointing out to the worst in western civilization as an excuse for they not adopting a free society. They often point to p-orno-graphy in the west as failure of a free society They conveniently do not realize that westerners do not necessarily celebrate p-orno-graphy instead consider that a price they have to pay for living in a free society.
Let me apply that to Hinduism. Because there is no rigid rules, you would find some odd and strange practices within Hinduism including some bizarre Tantric rituals. Missionaries and religious supremacists often illustrate these sects to point to the failure of Hinduism just like countries that have a tyrannical political system who point to p-orno-graphy as the central tenet of free society. Hindus would tolerate these bizzare tantric practices (within the context of a law and order) and not necessarily celebrate them as Hindu customs.
Context 3.
Process of scientific quest: Scientists and the process of scientific quest is about the pursuit of that never reaching wall of knowledge. Its the pursuit and not about finding all the answers there is to know. Its about the constant debate. Yet, you would find some individuals (Creationists) who would use this as a weakness to deride scientists and what they do.
In Hinduism, its not about a set of revealed set of truth given to 1 or 2 individual that has adjudicated all questions and that subsequent generation would just have to accept this "adjudicated revealed truth" hence forth and that they would be punished if they challenge these "truths". Instead, Hindu beliefs are really musings of individuals (sears) over a period of time and these musings still continue and will never end just like scientific musings are a never ending pursuit.
Hope that helps
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A reply to the above:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--> WOW! That is a fantastic explanation of Hinduism.
   Thank you cpgmm.
   So if a person is tolerant of other people finding their own way to God and pluralistic , they fall under the big tent called "Hindusim" no matter what their personal faith is. As long as they are tolarant and pluralistic, they could be Christian, Mohammadan or whatever, they would be considered as Hindus!
   That is so wise and cool! Now, I understand the premise of this author and the article.
   Bigotry can never be a theology. Even if a God is a jealous God, an individual should be willing to stand up to his or her God and speak for other human beings. One should have the courage to stand up to ones God if necessary instead of selling out so YOU could get to heaven.
      Posted By: humanChild @ 08/18/2009 11:21:46 PM<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Another reply to cpgmm:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--> Hinduism does not encourage possessive or invasive thinking and activities. Hinduism does not claim that everybody or all good human souls are Hindus. It is all about diversity - tolerance towards difference, and acceptance of difference. How one will identify oneself depends on that self ??? how an individual wants to reveal his/her spiritual identity to other fellow human beings? If you feel comfortable and happy by identifying yourself as Christian or Hindu or Jew or atheist or agnostic, go for that. It is all about your comfort level and happiness. As long as you are not doing any harm to others, you should be fine.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
http://www.newsweek.com/id/212155/output/comments
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Please explain the train of thought. Why do they suddenly feel they are Hindus now? Not before and not after?
Wasnt US created by Puritans and dont they have "In God we trust"? Do they now trust i gods? Are godesses not to far in the future?
has the Cultural revoultion hit home? Were Ravi Shankar, Rajneesh, and Deepak Chopra etc finally triumphant? Is New Age taking over?
Where does pagansm without idols fit in?
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
reply
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->This article described postmodern thought...and not specifically Hinduism.
The whole "what is right for you is right for you, what is right for me is right for me" idea is flawed at the core. We can dress it up however we like, but it's all the same. "There is NO absolute Truth" is the essential truth.
Evangelical Christians (white, and other races too...it's petty to use race as a defining factor in an article like that imho, but I digress) believe in an absolute Truth - a plumbline by which we measure all else. This is why Christianity is hated by so many. There mere act of believing the Bible is an assault on other beliefs.
The public schools teach postmodern thought at every turn. It's sometimes subtle, sometimes not. This, more than differences of opinion in science and history, is the reason so many Christians pull their kids out. The *Worldview* is as different as night and day. The stats are no suprise to me.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Americans were being brainwashed and trained in the last 30 years to be tolerant and
live a multi racial world with different religions
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->My dh is 10 years older than I (I'm 35). He hates wearing his seatbelt. I Always put mine on, usually before I even start the car. I recycle, he does, but only b/c I get on him .
My point? I believe it's b/c of what we learned in school. His generation wasn't taught, aka brainwashed, to do either; however when I was in school, both of those things were pushed at every opportunity. As was tolerance and unity amongst cultures. I can't count how many times I was shown the kids from different nations, standing in circles, holding hands with big old smiles on their faces.
Now, the examples I gave are not bad things, but I use them to point out how in ps I was showered and showered by a certain agenda and much of it stuck.
With the influence of all the things I mentioned earlier in this post, I'm not surprised at all of the swing in the Universalism direction.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->I think the Hindu thing is a red herring, as of course, these views are not Hindu, per se, even if they have something in common with Hinduism.
It seems like three possibilities are being raised here.
1. It's the current political correctness: I'm okay, you're okay.
2. It's the reality of living in a multi-cultural, multi-faith society. If you have good neighbors who are Muslim/Jewish/Agnostic, it's hard to wrap your mind around the fact that they may, in fact, be spending the afterlife in hell.<b>
3. It's a religious shift similar to what happened ~1800, where universalism is on the rise vis a vis other flavors of Christianity.</b> Much of the 20th Century was about the rise of evangelical Christianity and maybe this is a reaction. (Of course, that could still leave #1 partially responsible for causing this shift.)
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Universalism with a broader world view is in.
Post modernism view is being established in the last of the EJ strong hold in the world for a universal NT
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
and comments on newsweek webiste by BRf member
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Did'nt know where to post this, but since it is in context to the Newsweek articl on "We are all Hindu's now", this is one one of the finest concise expositions on Hinduism as explained to the uninitiated along with some reactions to it:
<!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Posted By: cpgmm @ 08/18/2009 11:07:41 AM
Context 1:
Western concept of liberty as a political system: e.g. "Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness". It's a very broad framework. It does not go into the minutia or stipulate what it is that would make you happy etc.. Does it mean, that you can bring in a rigid system of communism or fascism ideology under that framework of "LLPH"? Obviously not since those political ideologies would violate the basic framework of liberty in the political context. However, you can still have socialism as normative values within the frame work of "LLPH".
Now apply the same concept when it comes to Hindu religion vs a vis other religions. There is no set ideology that Hindus should adhere, to be a Hindu.. Hinduism is freedom of spiritual quest for an individual as long as the framework is not violated. if you insist that your belief or ideology is the only true one and every other faith is in violation, then you are violating the basic freedom of spiritual quest and most Hindus would not accept that as being Hindu.
Context 2:
Another illustration is how western liberal ideology is pilloried by some conservative society of the world by pointing out to the worst in western civilization as an excuse for they not adopting a free society. They often point to p-orno-graphy in the west as failure of a free society They conveniently do not realize that westerners do not necessarily celebrate p-orno-graphy instead consider that a price they have to pay for living in a free society.
Let me apply that to Hinduism. Because there is no rigid rules, you would find some odd and strange practices within Hinduism including some bizarre Tantric rituals. Missionaries and religious supremacists often illustrate these sects to point to the failure of Hinduism just like countries that have a tyrannical political system who point to p-orno-graphy as the central tenet of free society. Hindus would tolerate these bizzare tantric practices (within the context of a law and order) and not necessarily celebrate them as Hindu customs.
Context 3.
Process of scientific quest: Scientists and the process of scientific quest is about the pursuit of that never reaching wall of knowledge. Its the pursuit and not about finding all the answers there is to know. Its about the constant debate. Yet, you would find some individuals (Creationists) who would use this as a weakness to deride scientists and what they do.
In Hinduism, its not about a set of revealed set of truth given to 1 or 2 individual that has adjudicated all questions and that subsequent generation would just have to accept this "adjudicated revealed truth" hence forth and that they would be punished if they challenge these "truths". Instead, Hindu beliefs are really musings of individuals (sears) over a period of time and these musings still continue and will never end just like scientific musings are a never ending pursuit.
Hope that helps
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A reply to the above:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--> WOW! That is a fantastic explanation of Hinduism.
   Thank you cpgmm.
   So if a person is tolerant of other people finding their own way to God and pluralistic , they fall under the big tent called "Hindusim" no matter what their personal faith is. As long as they are tolarant and pluralistic, they could be Christian, Mohammadan or whatever, they would be considered as Hindus!
   That is so wise and cool! Now, I understand the premise of this author and the article.
   Bigotry can never be a theology. Even if a God is a jealous God, an individual should be willing to stand up to his or her God and speak for other human beings. One should have the courage to stand up to ones God if necessary instead of selling out so YOU could get to heaven.
      Posted By: humanChild @ 08/18/2009 11:21:46 PM<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Another reply to cpgmm:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--> Hinduism does not encourage possessive or invasive thinking and activities. Hinduism does not claim that everybody or all good human souls are Hindus. It is all about diversity - tolerance towards difference, and acceptance of difference. How one will identify oneself depends on that self ??? how an individual wants to reveal his/her spiritual identity to other fellow human beings? If you feel comfortable and happy by identifying yourself as Christian or Hindu or Jew or atheist or agnostic, go for that. It is all about your comfort level and happiness. As long as you are not doing any harm to others, you should be fine.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
http://www.newsweek.com/id/212155/output/comments
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->