01-24-2005, 05:05 PM
Hi,
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->I remember that there were some ppl in Srirangam became Brahmanas by saying "Om Namo Bhagavathe Vasudevaya". I am not sure if they had a gotra assigned en masse.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is absolutely no truth in this myth. Other related myths that have been floating around is that - (a) Ramanuja converted number of itaras into brahmin fold (b) Thenkalais were those converts.
There is no truth in either of the claim. Some uninformed vadakalais use (b) against thenkalis in their polemics, but learned vadakalais wouldn't like the notion of (a) as it would entail Ramanuja tampering with dharma shastras, which he never did. Moreover, the vadakalai/thenkalai distinction didn't exist during Ramanuja times but crystallized few centuries later.
Having said this, I am aware of a section of people in a village called Kovilam, who being actually vahnians took up thread en masse and entered thenkalai fold. (Referred to in Diwan Bahadur Rangachari's Sri Vaishnava brahmans). The usual practice is the castes entering sri vaishnava fold retain their caste identity.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->1.Ankiras---) Shatamarshana(Penance in the middle of Five fires at Haridhwar and
got the boon that the Sata Vayu will not affect him . Similar to the case of Satakopan(Nammalwar later).His predecessors, Purukutsar and Traasa Dasyu were authorities on Rig Vedam.Tras is made up of 3 Kinds of fear .Since these htree kinds of fear ran away fro him out of fear for his Power derived from penance, He is called Trasa Dhasyu. All the three Rishis (Ankiras, Purukutsar,Trsadasyu) are thus included in the Pravaram of Shatamarshana Gothris.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The above information is a joke, to put it mildly. Purukutsa and Trasadasyu were kshatriyas (most probably Ikshvakus). Trasadasyu actually means "he who makes the dasyus shake with fear". There is no relation between ShaDmarshanas (ShaTamarshanas ?!) and shaTakopa. Probably the SVs engaged in folk etymology by corrupting "shaDmarshana" to "shaTamarshana" to see a link to shaTakopa or nammazhvar.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->I never would have imagined that there is Gotra pravara amongst the tribal population of one of the most ancient tribes of India.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is unfortunate for the article to use the term "gotra". Adding pravara to the above is even more unfortunate! Clan exogamy, (which the dwijas follow using the gotra system) is a pan human practice. (I am lazy to pick up my anthropology book to list the tribes across the globe that follow this). In a nutshell, various endogamous tribes are divided into clans with their own totems and these clans follow exogamy. Usually the woman enters the clan of her husband after marriage.
So, the chenchus may as well be following clan exogamy -- but this in itself doesn't warrant a connection to "atri brhgu kutsa vasishTa gautama Agnirasa..." list. <!--emo&
--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Is anyone aware of Karandikar's "Hindu exogamy"? He seems to imply that the gotra names actually implies totemism (Kashyapa - tortoise, Bharadwaja - Sky lark, Vatsa - Calf etc.). So, in ancient days, anyone can enter a rishi's gotra. Karandikar cites a line in shatapatha brAhmaNa "He chooses the pravaras connected to the rishis..." --> implying the sacrificer had full liberty to choose the pravara rishis and hence he could choose any gotra he wanted <!--emo&
--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/rolleyes.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='rolleyes.gif' /><!--endemo-->
The historian K A N Shastri seems to agree with Karandikar in "Dravidans and Aryans - cultural contacts" that the "vedic" gotra exogamy was modelled after indigenous prototypes (as Iranians and Indo-Europeans didn't seem to have a gotra system), but sapinda exogamy is not.
My personal view is that, since the clan exogamy is found in most of the tribes across the globe (probably this is a convergent evolution), the vedic people may have converged to this system without external cultural contact.
Regards,
Giri
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->I remember that there were some ppl in Srirangam became Brahmanas by saying "Om Namo Bhagavathe Vasudevaya". I am not sure if they had a gotra assigned en masse.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is absolutely no truth in this myth. Other related myths that have been floating around is that - (a) Ramanuja converted number of itaras into brahmin fold (b) Thenkalais were those converts.
There is no truth in either of the claim. Some uninformed vadakalais use (b) against thenkalis in their polemics, but learned vadakalais wouldn't like the notion of (a) as it would entail Ramanuja tampering with dharma shastras, which he never did. Moreover, the vadakalai/thenkalai distinction didn't exist during Ramanuja times but crystallized few centuries later.
Having said this, I am aware of a section of people in a village called Kovilam, who being actually vahnians took up thread en masse and entered thenkalai fold. (Referred to in Diwan Bahadur Rangachari's Sri Vaishnava brahmans). The usual practice is the castes entering sri vaishnava fold retain their caste identity.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->1.Ankiras---) Shatamarshana(Penance in the middle of Five fires at Haridhwar and
got the boon that the Sata Vayu will not affect him . Similar to the case of Satakopan(Nammalwar later).His predecessors, Purukutsar and Traasa Dasyu were authorities on Rig Vedam.Tras is made up of 3 Kinds of fear .Since these htree kinds of fear ran away fro him out of fear for his Power derived from penance, He is called Trasa Dhasyu. All the three Rishis (Ankiras, Purukutsar,Trsadasyu) are thus included in the Pravaram of Shatamarshana Gothris.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The above information is a joke, to put it mildly. Purukutsa and Trasadasyu were kshatriyas (most probably Ikshvakus). Trasadasyu actually means "he who makes the dasyus shake with fear". There is no relation between ShaDmarshanas (ShaTamarshanas ?!) and shaTakopa. Probably the SVs engaged in folk etymology by corrupting "shaDmarshana" to "shaTamarshana" to see a link to shaTakopa or nammazhvar.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->I never would have imagined that there is Gotra pravara amongst the tribal population of one of the most ancient tribes of India.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is unfortunate for the article to use the term "gotra". Adding pravara to the above is even more unfortunate! Clan exogamy, (which the dwijas follow using the gotra system) is a pan human practice. (I am lazy to pick up my anthropology book to list the tribes across the globe that follow this). In a nutshell, various endogamous tribes are divided into clans with their own totems and these clans follow exogamy. Usually the woman enters the clan of her husband after marriage.
So, the chenchus may as well be following clan exogamy -- but this in itself doesn't warrant a connection to "atri brhgu kutsa vasishTa gautama Agnirasa..." list. <!--emo&
--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> Is anyone aware of Karandikar's "Hindu exogamy"? He seems to imply that the gotra names actually implies totemism (Kashyapa - tortoise, Bharadwaja - Sky lark, Vatsa - Calf etc.). So, in ancient days, anyone can enter a rishi's gotra. Karandikar cites a line in shatapatha brAhmaNa "He chooses the pravaras connected to the rishis..." --> implying the sacrificer had full liberty to choose the pravara rishis and hence he could choose any gotra he wanted <!--emo&
--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/rolleyes.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='rolleyes.gif' /><!--endemo--> The historian K A N Shastri seems to agree with Karandikar in "Dravidans and Aryans - cultural contacts" that the "vedic" gotra exogamy was modelled after indigenous prototypes (as Iranians and Indo-Europeans didn't seem to have a gotra system), but sapinda exogamy is not.
My personal view is that, since the clan exogamy is found in most of the tribes across the globe (probably this is a convergent evolution), the vedic people may have converged to this system without external cultural contact.
Regards,
Giri