01-25-2005, 08:18 PM
<!--QuoteBegin-Ashok Kumar+Jan 25 2005, 09:54 PM-->QUOTE(Ashok Kumar @ Jan 25 2005, 09:54 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->
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Although Brahman as an ocean has been mentioned several times in Indian scriptures, the advaitic view of brahman is not that of an ocean. The ocean still is made of a multiplicity of water elements/molecules. While the brahman is one without a second, without any divisions or parts whatsoever[QUOTE]
This is extending the analogy beyond its validity. Water stands for formlessness while ice stands for form.
Brahman is often described as 'all'. The advaitic view of brahman is not this. Brahman is not 'all' that appears. It is the one when the ignorant perception of multiplicity constituting the sense of 'all' is negated by a higher perception of 'unity'.
In this sense there is a real problem. Scriptures have many statements which would suggest the God/Brahman/Narayana exists simultaneously and independently along with the world. Advaita on the other hand clearly states that when one becomes conscious of the brahman, the world can not be real in that state.[QUOTE]
Yes, Brahman is ALL but the problem is that we do not see Brahman but only the multiplicity. I have given below some quotes from Svetasvatara Upanishad to show the difficulty. The Upanishad seems to be saying that Brahman is everything and yet we do not see that. Hence the reality that we do see normally can not be as TRUE as the reality depicted by the scripture that Brahman is both the green parrot and the blue bee, is also with form (check 1, 2,4,5,6), is without form (3,7), is the insentient world (8,10) and jeeva (9,10) and exists ALONE (2). This is the reason why Advaita says the world is mithya. The fact that we do not see Brahman but only multiplicity forces Advaita to say that only when the multiplicty is sublated one can see the underlying unity. Ramanuja on the other hand just joins Narayana, jeeva and Jagat into one complex. It seems to me that such a view just can not be right if you accept quote 2 that Brahman exists ALONE. Ramanuja's position is the common sense view of people but does not seem to me to be in accordance with the quotes I have presented. Advaita view on the other hand can not be right when it claims that even Sagun Brahman is sublated. Svetasvatara Upanishad seems to suggest that Brahman is both with and without form and quote 1 describes a Person and not non-dual Brahman.
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1.I know this great Person who is resplendent like the sun and is beyond darkness. By knowing him alone one transcends death; there is no other path to go by. (Sv. Up 3.8)
2. By this Person is filled up all this, in relation to whom there is nothing superior or inferior, in comparison with whom there is nothing smaller nor greater, and who exists ALONE in His own effulgent glory, unmoving like a tree. (Sv. Up 3.9)
3. That which is higher than that superior (cause of the world) is without FORM and without disease. Those who know This, they become immortal, while others get only sorrow. (Sv Up 3.10)
4. He who has all the faces, heads and necks, who resides in the intellects of all beings and is all-pervasive, is the Lord (Bhagavan) and therfore the omniscient Siva. (Sv Up 3.11)
5.The Purusa is, indeed, all this that grows through food, and what was and will be. Besides, He is the ordainer of immortality. (Sv Up 3.15)
6. It has hands and feet everywhere, and eyes, heads and faces everywhere, and I
t is possessed of ears everywhere. It exists among all the creatures, pervading
all. (Sv Up 3.16)
7. He is without hands and feet, (and yet) moves and grasps; He sees, (though) without eyes; He hears (though) without ears. He knows whatever is to be known, and of Him there is no knower. They speak of Him as the first, the Supreme Person (Purusham mahantam). (Sv Up 3.19)
8.That indeed is fire, That is the sun, That is air, and That is the moon; That indeed is pure, That is Brahman, That is water, and That is Prajapati. (Sv Up 4.2)
9. You are the woman, You are the man, You are the boy, (and) You are the girl too. You are the old man tottering with a stick. Taking birth, You have Your faces everywhere. (Sv Up 4.3)
10. You, indeed, are the blue bee; You indeed are the green parrot having red eyes
; You indeed are possessed of lightning in Your womb. You indeed are the seasons and the seas. You indeed are without beginning; You exist as the Omnipresent, from whom have sprung all the worlds. (Sv Up 4.4)
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Although Brahman as an ocean has been mentioned several times in Indian scriptures, the advaitic view of brahman is not that of an ocean. The ocean still is made of a multiplicity of water elements/molecules. While the brahman is one without a second, without any divisions or parts whatsoever[QUOTE]
This is extending the analogy beyond its validity. Water stands for formlessness while ice stands for form.
Brahman is often described as 'all'. The advaitic view of brahman is not this. Brahman is not 'all' that appears. It is the one when the ignorant perception of multiplicity constituting the sense of 'all' is negated by a higher perception of 'unity'.
In this sense there is a real problem. Scriptures have many statements which would suggest the God/Brahman/Narayana exists simultaneously and independently along with the world. Advaita on the other hand clearly states that when one becomes conscious of the brahman, the world can not be real in that state.[QUOTE]
Yes, Brahman is ALL but the problem is that we do not see Brahman but only the multiplicity. I have given below some quotes from Svetasvatara Upanishad to show the difficulty. The Upanishad seems to be saying that Brahman is everything and yet we do not see that. Hence the reality that we do see normally can not be as TRUE as the reality depicted by the scripture that Brahman is both the green parrot and the blue bee, is also with form (check 1, 2,4,5,6), is without form (3,7), is the insentient world (8,10) and jeeva (9,10) and exists ALONE (2). This is the reason why Advaita says the world is mithya. The fact that we do not see Brahman but only multiplicity forces Advaita to say that only when the multiplicty is sublated one can see the underlying unity. Ramanuja on the other hand just joins Narayana, jeeva and Jagat into one complex. It seems to me that such a view just can not be right if you accept quote 2 that Brahman exists ALONE. Ramanuja's position is the common sense view of people but does not seem to me to be in accordance with the quotes I have presented. Advaita view on the other hand can not be right when it claims that even Sagun Brahman is sublated. Svetasvatara Upanishad seems to suggest that Brahman is both with and without form and quote 1 describes a Person and not non-dual Brahman.
********************************************************************************************************************
1.I know this great Person who is resplendent like the sun and is beyond darkness. By knowing him alone one transcends death; there is no other path to go by. (Sv. Up 3.8)
2. By this Person is filled up all this, in relation to whom there is nothing superior or inferior, in comparison with whom there is nothing smaller nor greater, and who exists ALONE in His own effulgent glory, unmoving like a tree. (Sv. Up 3.9)
3. That which is higher than that superior (cause of the world) is without FORM and without disease. Those who know This, they become immortal, while others get only sorrow. (Sv Up 3.10)
4. He who has all the faces, heads and necks, who resides in the intellects of all beings and is all-pervasive, is the Lord (Bhagavan) and therfore the omniscient Siva. (Sv Up 3.11)
5.The Purusa is, indeed, all this that grows through food, and what was and will be. Besides, He is the ordainer of immortality. (Sv Up 3.15)
6. It has hands and feet everywhere, and eyes, heads and faces everywhere, and I
t is possessed of ears everywhere. It exists among all the creatures, pervading
all. (Sv Up 3.16)
7. He is without hands and feet, (and yet) moves and grasps; He sees, (though) without eyes; He hears (though) without ears. He knows whatever is to be known, and of Him there is no knower. They speak of Him as the first, the Supreme Person (Purusham mahantam). (Sv Up 3.19)
8.That indeed is fire, That is the sun, That is air, and That is the moon; That indeed is pure, That is Brahman, That is water, and That is Prajapati. (Sv Up 4.2)
9. You are the woman, You are the man, You are the boy, (and) You are the girl too. You are the old man tottering with a stick. Taking birth, You have Your faces everywhere. (Sv Up 4.3)
10. You, indeed, are the blue bee; You indeed are the green parrot having red eyes
; You indeed are possessed of lightning in Your womb. You indeed are the seasons and the seas. You indeed are without beginning; You exist as the Omnipresent, from whom have sprung all the worlds. (Sv Up 4.4)