10-14-2009, 02:54 AM
<!--QuoteBegin-"Anujan"+-->QUOTE("Anujan")<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-"SwamyG"+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE("SwamyG")<!--QuoteEBegin-->Anujan saar: Can you cite references for the forced conversion on Gandhiji? TIA.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
MKG-ji did something stunning that few people realize.
<b>You should realize that Indian independence was as much an ideological struggle as it was a political and social struggle. During the heydays of Imperialism, it was quite fashionable to find theological and "Moral" basis for perpetrating imperialism and colonialism.</b> They were commonly justified as "White man's burden". It is in many ways quite aptly summed up by Kipling's poem
"Take up the White Man's burden/Send forth the best ye breed/.../Your new-caught, sullen peoples,/Half-devil and half-child.
Take up the White Man's burden/The savage wars of peace/.../Watch sloth and heathen Folly/Bring all your hopes to nought."
<b>In essence, Kipling exhorts his countrymen and Europeans to take up the white man's burden, to civilize the half-devil and half child orientals. To wage savage wars to bring peace (wow !), even though in the short term the lazy heathen (kuffars) might frustrate progress. This interpretation served the purpose splendidly, with colonialism providing fodder for economic growth of the west, while also providing a theological basis and opportunities for the clergy. "White man's burden", not only alludes to the big task of social and economic emancipation of the orientals, but also to the "burden" of ensuring their religious (and hence moral) advancement (into Christianity).</b>
MKG-ji, even though secular in his <i>political outlook and beliefs</i> made no bones to hide the fact that his <i>ethical and moral beliefs</i> arose from his religious conviction. <b>He stunningly demonstrated that ethics rooted in oriental theology, gave rise to values such as non-violence and non-cooperation with evil, thereby demonstrating the superiority of eastern ethics over the (hollow) claims of refined moral and ethical beliefs of the west.</b>
In refining his moral and ethical beliefs, MKG-ji consulted not just the Hindu holy books, but also the Koran and the Bible -- but instinctively realized that he was a Hindu. (Why ? read next post) The Christians who were (a) amazed at this stunning setback for all to see (Independence of 1/4 of humanity led by a man who based his principles on ethics is bound to be noticed by people. Especially when Europe with all their claims of ethical superiority were busy gassing the Jews and killing one another) (b) Saw a great opportunity to gain influence in India by claiming their leader as one of their own and © Not really familiar with the framework through which Hindu thought progresses (see next post), <b>made several entreaties to MKG-ji, claiming that since his beliefs were Christ-like and since he himself admitted that some of his beliefs originated from the Bible, he should convert.</b>
<i>{ramana: I sawa beautiful icon in Berkely which depicted Gandhiji as Christ! Not being well off I put off acquiring it to find out it was sold out.}</i>
MKG-ji famously rebuked them.(his words)
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->I disbelieve in the conversion of one person by another. My effort should never be to undermine another's faith but to make him a better follower of his own faith. This implies the belief in the truth of all religions and respect for them. It again implies true humility, a recognition of the fact that the divine light having been vouchsafed to all religions through an imperfect medium of flesh, they must share in more or less degree the imperfection of the vehicle.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
On top of it wrote things such as (his words)
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->"A Satyagrahi aims at conversion of the opponent's heart by making him aware of his ill will or inhuman behaviour through self-suffering. Satyagraha aims at winning over the opponent by love and gentle persuation and by arousing in him a sense of justice rather than forcing him to surrender out of fear."<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He was talking of converting the west <!--emo&:lol:--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='laugh.gif' /><!--endemo--> There are several accounts from MKG-ji himself about his experiences with missionaries. Some of the exchanges are remarkable, and reveal the supple intellect of the Mahatma. MKG-ji recounts an incident (so "me" in this context=MKG-ji, since these are his words)
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->(From a missionary)Â 'You cannot understand the beauty of our religion. From what you say it appears that you must be brooding over your transgressions every moment of your life, always mending them and atoning for them. How can this ceaseless cycle of action bring you redemption? You can never have peace. You admit that we are all sinners. Now look at the perfection of our belief. Our attempts at improvement and atonement are futile. And yet redemption we must have. How can we bear the burden of sin? We can but throw it on Jesus. He is the only sinless Son of God. It is His word that those who believe in Him shall have everlasting life. Therein lies God's infinite mercy. And as we believe in the atonement of Jesus, our own sins do not bind us. Sin we must. It is impossible to live in this world sinless. And therefore Jesus suffered and atoned for all the sins of mankind. Only he who accepts His great redemption can have eternal peace. Think what a life of restlessness is yours, and what a promise of peace we have.'
The argument utterly failed to convince me. I humbly replied:
'If this be the Christianity acknowledged by all Christians, I cannot accept it. I do not seek redemption from the consequences of my sin. I seek to be redeemed from sin itself, or rather from the very thought of sin. Until I have attained that end, I shall be content to be restless.'Â <b>(Anujan's comment: this is a very profound point, more profound than most realize. Probably requiring an entire post. Please let me know if there is interest)
</b>
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
PS> Dont really know if I should bore the rakshaks with my rant which I intended for "see next post"
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
MKG-ji did something stunning that few people realize.
<b>You should realize that Indian independence was as much an ideological struggle as it was a political and social struggle. During the heydays of Imperialism, it was quite fashionable to find theological and "Moral" basis for perpetrating imperialism and colonialism.</b> They were commonly justified as "White man's burden". It is in many ways quite aptly summed up by Kipling's poem
"Take up the White Man's burden/Send forth the best ye breed/.../Your new-caught, sullen peoples,/Half-devil and half-child.
Take up the White Man's burden/The savage wars of peace/.../Watch sloth and heathen Folly/Bring all your hopes to nought."
<b>In essence, Kipling exhorts his countrymen and Europeans to take up the white man's burden, to civilize the half-devil and half child orientals. To wage savage wars to bring peace (wow !), even though in the short term the lazy heathen (kuffars) might frustrate progress. This interpretation served the purpose splendidly, with colonialism providing fodder for economic growth of the west, while also providing a theological basis and opportunities for the clergy. "White man's burden", not only alludes to the big task of social and economic emancipation of the orientals, but also to the "burden" of ensuring their religious (and hence moral) advancement (into Christianity).</b>
MKG-ji, even though secular in his <i>political outlook and beliefs</i> made no bones to hide the fact that his <i>ethical and moral beliefs</i> arose from his religious conviction. <b>He stunningly demonstrated that ethics rooted in oriental theology, gave rise to values such as non-violence and non-cooperation with evil, thereby demonstrating the superiority of eastern ethics over the (hollow) claims of refined moral and ethical beliefs of the west.</b>
In refining his moral and ethical beliefs, MKG-ji consulted not just the Hindu holy books, but also the Koran and the Bible -- but instinctively realized that he was a Hindu. (Why ? read next post) The Christians who were (a) amazed at this stunning setback for all to see (Independence of 1/4 of humanity led by a man who based his principles on ethics is bound to be noticed by people. Especially when Europe with all their claims of ethical superiority were busy gassing the Jews and killing one another) (b) Saw a great opportunity to gain influence in India by claiming their leader as one of their own and © Not really familiar with the framework through which Hindu thought progresses (see next post), <b>made several entreaties to MKG-ji, claiming that since his beliefs were Christ-like and since he himself admitted that some of his beliefs originated from the Bible, he should convert.</b>
<i>{ramana: I sawa beautiful icon in Berkely which depicted Gandhiji as Christ! Not being well off I put off acquiring it to find out it was sold out.}</i>
MKG-ji famously rebuked them.(his words)
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->I disbelieve in the conversion of one person by another. My effort should never be to undermine another's faith but to make him a better follower of his own faith. This implies the belief in the truth of all religions and respect for them. It again implies true humility, a recognition of the fact that the divine light having been vouchsafed to all religions through an imperfect medium of flesh, they must share in more or less degree the imperfection of the vehicle.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
On top of it wrote things such as (his words)
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->"A Satyagrahi aims at conversion of the opponent's heart by making him aware of his ill will or inhuman behaviour through self-suffering. Satyagraha aims at winning over the opponent by love and gentle persuation and by arousing in him a sense of justice rather than forcing him to surrender out of fear."<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He was talking of converting the west <!--emo&:lol:--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='laugh.gif' /><!--endemo--> There are several accounts from MKG-ji himself about his experiences with missionaries. Some of the exchanges are remarkable, and reveal the supple intellect of the Mahatma. MKG-ji recounts an incident (so "me" in this context=MKG-ji, since these are his words)
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->(From a missionary)Â 'You cannot understand the beauty of our religion. From what you say it appears that you must be brooding over your transgressions every moment of your life, always mending them and atoning for them. How can this ceaseless cycle of action bring you redemption? You can never have peace. You admit that we are all sinners. Now look at the perfection of our belief. Our attempts at improvement and atonement are futile. And yet redemption we must have. How can we bear the burden of sin? We can but throw it on Jesus. He is the only sinless Son of God. It is His word that those who believe in Him shall have everlasting life. Therein lies God's infinite mercy. And as we believe in the atonement of Jesus, our own sins do not bind us. Sin we must. It is impossible to live in this world sinless. And therefore Jesus suffered and atoned for all the sins of mankind. Only he who accepts His great redemption can have eternal peace. Think what a life of restlessness is yours, and what a promise of peace we have.'
The argument utterly failed to convince me. I humbly replied:
'If this be the Christianity acknowledged by all Christians, I cannot accept it. I do not seek redemption from the consequences of my sin. I seek to be redeemed from sin itself, or rather from the very thought of sin. Until I have attained that end, I shall be content to be restless.'Â <b>(Anujan's comment: this is a very profound point, more profound than most realize. Probably requiring an entire post. Please let me know if there is interest)
</b>
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
PS> Dont really know if I should bore the rakshaks with my rant which I intended for "see next post"
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->