02-02-2005, 02:38 AM
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->On a lower level even we get identified with our country, religion etc. This common identity for a group of separate people could appear like a disjoint bunch. But in many cases such as a highly devotional group or a lynch-mob, the collection takes up a personality of its own.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This identification with the external thing is what caused Jeevatma (Chidabhasa) to think that it is the body. Nonetheless, when a billion ppl identify themselves with the Nation or religion, and the collective experience takes up a personality, the 'collective consciousness' is not seen by the individual observer. You can only have YOUR perception of the group thought. Thus, the group personality in reality cannot be called a 'separate' personality any different from you.
People fall in love and have deep identification with their object of love. And yet do not really MERGE and think that they are their object of love. A man never thinks that he has become the woman he loves, and vice versa. If that was the case, then lovers would have lost their original identity, and this is not seen from experience.
The Jeeva-Ishwara relation is not the same as Jeeva-jeeva relation. Between two jeevas, there is the same level of impediments, and hence one jeeva does not merge into another jeeva. The merger is always vertical, and never horizontal. Even though a mother carries a jeeva for nine months, she does not feel that she is her baby, does she ? Nor does the fetus think it is the mother.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->The other way to ask the same questions is to ask whether there is just one kind of 'mukti' or many kinds. Most people mean by 'mukti' to attain to the level of the highest nirguna brahman. But for our human condition, in this school of earth, it appears that 'mukti' from even just the push and pulls of vital-emotions means a huge accomplishment. Just watch the movies, dramas, TV and read the books. A majority of drama of life on earth is written in terms of vital-emotional push and pulls, the rAga and dvesha of the lower vital personality. A 'mukti' from just that may be a hug 'mukti' for most people.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In colloquial terms Mukti can take any meaning, like "guru", or "pundit" has different applications in english. But the Shruthi always means Mukthi to be free from all pleasures/pains. It could be jeevan-mukthi, or videha-mukthi. The presence or absence of a physical body does not alter the nature of mukthi.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->While philosophizing, it is easy to forget how far the nirguna brahman really is. From a saguna level like ours to the nirguna there may be uncountable numbers of layers. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
"Dhoorastham, cha anthike cha thath". It is far, yet it is the closest. It is the one that makes you aware of the layers in the first place. It cannot be any further from you than yourself <!--emo&
--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> I like Sri Rubhu's words, "Yathra Yathra mano yathi, thathra Brahmaiva darshanam." This can be practised during self enquiry, or while travelling in the skytrain, or local bus etc.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->And if someone says that one particular saguna level is especially important and is the ONLY one just below the nirguna, then I have a problem with that too. I think it is always possible to find the next element in a sequence of sagunas. There is no 'final' element at the level of sagunas. Only final element is the nirguna.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Isn't any saguna based on Nirguna as it's substratum? If a saguna has another saguna as it's substratum, then I am confused. Thus the hierarchy that we talk about cannot be saguna-based-on-saguna model. It has to be saguna-with-nirguna-substratum model alone. If that is the case, then the merger can be easily explained. Just as your dream objects merge back into your mind when you awake, there is no hierarchical mergers of dream objects.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Why doesn't Ishvara, if he has any action on any of the koshas, not feel the reaction too? All the koshas are supposed to be linked causally. TWhy wouldn't they mutually affect each other. Even if Ishvara only deals with anadamaya, still he gets the effects of all the koshas because anandamaya itself gets affected by lower koshas.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The Sandhaanam (joining) of the Ishwara with the kosha is not the same as a physical link between them. As Shri Bhagavaan says in the Geetha, "Yatha akaasha stitho nithyam vayu sarvatrago mahaan" in BG 9.6. (I think I had mentioned this earlier.
If all quarks, electrons and protons are in contact with space, then how come space does not get charged by the +ve and -ve charges of the electron/protons ? If something is OMNIpresent, then it naturally will be the encapsulation point for any and all classes below it.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->It appears that it is being implied that Ishvara can act on the world without himself facing any reaction. This kind of separation has been proposed many times where a certain ideal entity can affect other non-ideal entities, but remains unaffected himself. Again if this were to be taken to be absolutely true then certains problems arise.
If Ishvara is completely unaffected by lower things, then how can he respond to our prayers, complaints and sorrows that evidently arise in the lower realms. If his actions would only be 'actions' not 'reactions' then nothing we could do, pray or beseech from our lower level could affect him to change his intent or action. Compassion implies getting affected by others suffering.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Getting affected here would mean mutation of Ishwara. This does not happen. However, all your prayers and sufferings go away because of the WILL and Compassion of Ishwara. This is my understanding, though I am not competent enough to understand how the Will and Compassion of Ishwara works.
This identification with the external thing is what caused Jeevatma (Chidabhasa) to think that it is the body. Nonetheless, when a billion ppl identify themselves with the Nation or religion, and the collective experience takes up a personality, the 'collective consciousness' is not seen by the individual observer. You can only have YOUR perception of the group thought. Thus, the group personality in reality cannot be called a 'separate' personality any different from you.
People fall in love and have deep identification with their object of love. And yet do not really MERGE and think that they are their object of love. A man never thinks that he has become the woman he loves, and vice versa. If that was the case, then lovers would have lost their original identity, and this is not seen from experience.
The Jeeva-Ishwara relation is not the same as Jeeva-jeeva relation. Between two jeevas, there is the same level of impediments, and hence one jeeva does not merge into another jeeva. The merger is always vertical, and never horizontal. Even though a mother carries a jeeva for nine months, she does not feel that she is her baby, does she ? Nor does the fetus think it is the mother.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->The other way to ask the same questions is to ask whether there is just one kind of 'mukti' or many kinds. Most people mean by 'mukti' to attain to the level of the highest nirguna brahman. But for our human condition, in this school of earth, it appears that 'mukti' from even just the push and pulls of vital-emotions means a huge accomplishment. Just watch the movies, dramas, TV and read the books. A majority of drama of life on earth is written in terms of vital-emotional push and pulls, the rAga and dvesha of the lower vital personality. A 'mukti' from just that may be a hug 'mukti' for most people.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In colloquial terms Mukti can take any meaning, like "guru", or "pundit" has different applications in english. But the Shruthi always means Mukthi to be free from all pleasures/pains. It could be jeevan-mukthi, or videha-mukthi. The presence or absence of a physical body does not alter the nature of mukthi.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->While philosophizing, it is easy to forget how far the nirguna brahman really is. From a saguna level like ours to the nirguna there may be uncountable numbers of layers. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
"Dhoorastham, cha anthike cha thath". It is far, yet it is the closest. It is the one that makes you aware of the layers in the first place. It cannot be any further from you than yourself <!--emo&
--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> I like Sri Rubhu's words, "Yathra Yathra mano yathi, thathra Brahmaiva darshanam." This can be practised during self enquiry, or while travelling in the skytrain, or local bus etc.<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->And if someone says that one particular saguna level is especially important and is the ONLY one just below the nirguna, then I have a problem with that too. I think it is always possible to find the next element in a sequence of sagunas. There is no 'final' element at the level of sagunas. Only final element is the nirguna.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Isn't any saguna based on Nirguna as it's substratum? If a saguna has another saguna as it's substratum, then I am confused. Thus the hierarchy that we talk about cannot be saguna-based-on-saguna model. It has to be saguna-with-nirguna-substratum model alone. If that is the case, then the merger can be easily explained. Just as your dream objects merge back into your mind when you awake, there is no hierarchical mergers of dream objects.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Why doesn't Ishvara, if he has any action on any of the koshas, not feel the reaction too? All the koshas are supposed to be linked causally. TWhy wouldn't they mutually affect each other. Even if Ishvara only deals with anadamaya, still he gets the effects of all the koshas because anandamaya itself gets affected by lower koshas.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The Sandhaanam (joining) of the Ishwara with the kosha is not the same as a physical link between them. As Shri Bhagavaan says in the Geetha, "Yatha akaasha stitho nithyam vayu sarvatrago mahaan" in BG 9.6. (I think I had mentioned this earlier.
If all quarks, electrons and protons are in contact with space, then how come space does not get charged by the +ve and -ve charges of the electron/protons ? If something is OMNIpresent, then it naturally will be the encapsulation point for any and all classes below it.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->It appears that it is being implied that Ishvara can act on the world without himself facing any reaction. This kind of separation has been proposed many times where a certain ideal entity can affect other non-ideal entities, but remains unaffected himself. Again if this were to be taken to be absolutely true then certains problems arise.
If Ishvara is completely unaffected by lower things, then how can he respond to our prayers, complaints and sorrows that evidently arise in the lower realms. If his actions would only be 'actions' not 'reactions' then nothing we could do, pray or beseech from our lower level could affect him to change his intent or action. Compassion implies getting affected by others suffering.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Getting affected here would mean mutation of Ishwara. This does not happen. However, all your prayers and sufferings go away because of the WILL and Compassion of Ishwara. This is my understanding, though I am not competent enough to understand how the Will and Compassion of Ishwara works.