02-02-2005, 04:24 AM
Sunder says:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->The merger is always vertical, and never horizontal.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is what the upside-down Ashvattha tree model would also imply. But the shloka from the Gita does mention that branches of this tree go in all directions, even 'tiryak'.
To further probe the example of two people in love, lovers feel the image of their beloved in their hearts, just as devotees do regarding the deity. Their bodies obviously don't merge, but the sense of 'self' seems to have merged in a substantial way. According to the advaitic view, the true final Self is one and all other 'selves' are mere supposed selves, our idea of who we are. Even if a mother doesn't physically merge with the baby, the identification with the baby is very strong. Every little joy or pain of the baby is felt acutely by the mother too. In this sense the mother has extended her idea of her 'self' to include the baby. Isn't merger of a devotee in the Ishvara similar? An extension of the idea of 'self'?
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->"Dhoorastham, cha anthike cha thath". It is far, yet it is the closest. It is the one that makes you aware of the layers in the first place. It cannot be any further from you than yourself smile.gif I like Sri Rubhu's words, "Yathra Yathra mano yathi, thathra Brahmaiva darshanam." This can be practised during self enquiry, or while travelling in the skytrain, or local bus etc.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good point Sunder. But there can still be uncountable layers of sagunas to cross to reach the nirguna. An accomplished natarAja-AtmA ( <!--emo&
--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo--> ), could easily jump past those layers at will, but for most the distance could still be huge. How many people manage to actually see themselves as the only true Self, even though it is prsent there all the time.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Isn't any saguna based on Nirguna as it's substratum? If a saguna has another saguna as it's substratum, then I am confused. Thus the hierarchy that we talk about cannot be saguna-based-on-saguna model. It has to be saguna-with-nirguna-substratum model alone. If that is the case, then the merger can be easily explained. Just as your dream objects merge back into your mind when you awake, there is no hierarchical mergers of dream objects.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nirguna is of course the substratum for all the sagunas. But the process of subration doesn't immediately take you from any saguna directly to the nirguna. It can take you from a saguna level to another higher saguna level too. In the example of the rope and snake, subration makes the snake unreal, but that saguna snake is now replaced by a saguna rope. The snake doesn't just get subrated all the way to nirguna in one shot.
In the example of dream, when you wake up from dream, the reality of dream is subrated by the waking reality. But isn't it the point of advaita that even the waking reality can be subrated further?
Therefore it is quite alright to say that a saguna when subrated can still lead to a saguna. The whole process leads through a sequence of sagunas with a limit in the nirguna.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->The Sandhaanam (joining) of the Ishwara with the kosha is not the same as a physical link between them. As Shri Bhagavaan says in the Geetha, "Yatha akaasha stitho nithyam vayu sarvatrago mahaan" in BG 9.6. (I think I had mentioned this earlier.
If all quarks, electrons and protons are in contact with space, then how come space does not get charged by the +ve and -ve charges of the electron/protons ? If something is OMNIpresent, then it naturally will be the encapsulation point for any and all classes below it.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It was the view in classical newtonian mechanics that the presense of matter doesn't affect the underlying space. Einstein's relativistic mechanics has shown that the time as well as space get affected by the presence of matter. Curvature of space induced by matter is the general Relativity's description of gravity. So the analogy of space as the unaffected substratum doesn't quite work.
Nirguna brahman as the unaffected substratum works, as the nirguna and the other sagunas couldn't be present simultaneously for any observer. The problem with Ishvara/Narayana I have been mentioning is that he is supposed to be present simultaneously with all the jivas and jagat and still remains unaffected.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Getting affected here would mean mutation of Ishwara. This does not happen. However, all your prayers and sufferings go away because of the WILL and Compassion of Ishwara.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have a different view on the WILL.
I will expand on it more carefully in a subsequent post. [Edited by author]
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->The merger is always vertical, and never horizontal.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is what the upside-down Ashvattha tree model would also imply. But the shloka from the Gita does mention that branches of this tree go in all directions, even 'tiryak'.
To further probe the example of two people in love, lovers feel the image of their beloved in their hearts, just as devotees do regarding the deity. Their bodies obviously don't merge, but the sense of 'self' seems to have merged in a substantial way. According to the advaitic view, the true final Self is one and all other 'selves' are mere supposed selves, our idea of who we are. Even if a mother doesn't physically merge with the baby, the identification with the baby is very strong. Every little joy or pain of the baby is felt acutely by the mother too. In this sense the mother has extended her idea of her 'self' to include the baby. Isn't merger of a devotee in the Ishvara similar? An extension of the idea of 'self'?
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->"Dhoorastham, cha anthike cha thath". It is far, yet it is the closest. It is the one that makes you aware of the layers in the first place. It cannot be any further from you than yourself smile.gif I like Sri Rubhu's words, "Yathra Yathra mano yathi, thathra Brahmaiva darshanam." This can be practised during self enquiry, or while travelling in the skytrain, or local bus etc.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good point Sunder. But there can still be uncountable layers of sagunas to cross to reach the nirguna. An accomplished natarAja-AtmA ( <!--emo&
--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo--> ), could easily jump past those layers at will, but for most the distance could still be huge. How many people manage to actually see themselves as the only true Self, even though it is prsent there all the time.<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Isn't any saguna based on Nirguna as it's substratum? If a saguna has another saguna as it's substratum, then I am confused. Thus the hierarchy that we talk about cannot be saguna-based-on-saguna model. It has to be saguna-with-nirguna-substratum model alone. If that is the case, then the merger can be easily explained. Just as your dream objects merge back into your mind when you awake, there is no hierarchical mergers of dream objects.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nirguna is of course the substratum for all the sagunas. But the process of subration doesn't immediately take you from any saguna directly to the nirguna. It can take you from a saguna level to another higher saguna level too. In the example of the rope and snake, subration makes the snake unreal, but that saguna snake is now replaced by a saguna rope. The snake doesn't just get subrated all the way to nirguna in one shot.
In the example of dream, when you wake up from dream, the reality of dream is subrated by the waking reality. But isn't it the point of advaita that even the waking reality can be subrated further?
Therefore it is quite alright to say that a saguna when subrated can still lead to a saguna. The whole process leads through a sequence of sagunas with a limit in the nirguna.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->The Sandhaanam (joining) of the Ishwara with the kosha is not the same as a physical link between them. As Shri Bhagavaan says in the Geetha, "Yatha akaasha stitho nithyam vayu sarvatrago mahaan" in BG 9.6. (I think I had mentioned this earlier.
If all quarks, electrons and protons are in contact with space, then how come space does not get charged by the +ve and -ve charges of the electron/protons ? If something is OMNIpresent, then it naturally will be the encapsulation point for any and all classes below it.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It was the view in classical newtonian mechanics that the presense of matter doesn't affect the underlying space. Einstein's relativistic mechanics has shown that the time as well as space get affected by the presence of matter. Curvature of space induced by matter is the general Relativity's description of gravity. So the analogy of space as the unaffected substratum doesn't quite work.
Nirguna brahman as the unaffected substratum works, as the nirguna and the other sagunas couldn't be present simultaneously for any observer. The problem with Ishvara/Narayana I have been mentioning is that he is supposed to be present simultaneously with all the jivas and jagat and still remains unaffected.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Getting affected here would mean mutation of Ishwara. This does not happen. However, all your prayers and sufferings go away because of the WILL and Compassion of Ishwara.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have a different view on the WILL.
I will expand on it more carefully in a subsequent post. [Edited by author]