02-02-2005, 04:25 AM
<!--QuoteBegin-Ashok Kumar+Feb 2 2005, 03:35 AM-->QUOTE(Ashok Kumar @ Feb 2 2005, 03:35 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin--> omniscient but not omnipotent? Most people would claim even omnipotence with the Ishvara.
I had also thought of the example from Gita that you mentioned. But the Ishvara who is omniscient and the Ishvara who advices the Arjuna on right conduct seem so separated. From the level of omniscient, whatever choices Arjuna is going to make are all determined. While on his level Arjuna sees many options of actions open to him, and ShrI Bhagavan teaches him the "correct" path, meaning at that level even Shri Bhagavan accepts the freedom of choice.
Many questions boil down to the nature and scope of "free will" or "icchaa-shakti". Is it really free or is it predetermined.
"ichha-shakti" makes sense only within time, in the realm of MahA-kAla or mahA-kAlI. For a timeless being, there is no meaning to iccha-shakti, or for that matter any purpose, dharma etc. Omnicience implies a sort of timelessness. While Ishvara also acts within time. Hence the difficulty. Ishvara apparently combines within himself timelessness as well as a temporal aspect. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1. Yes, most people will claim Ishwara is also omnipotent. Of course, compared to a Jiva Ishwara is more powerful. I, however, side with the Buddhists that Ishwara is not omnipotent. I do not agree with the Buddhists that Ishwara can not reduce karmic suffering. I do not believe in omnipotence because an omnipotent Ishwara would be able to save genuine devotees from karmic suffering. That is not the case in the world.
2. At the level of Ishwara everything is known. At the level of a Jiva very little is known.
3. Jiva does not have absolute free will. After all a Jiva can not will death away. A Jiva has limited free will. The point is that whatever be the Jiva's choice the omniscient Ishwara knows what will happen.
I do not think omniscience necessarily involves timelessness. Let me tell you a personal story. I had an American friend, Mark, when I was in graduate school. I did not see him for almost 13 years. I met him again in 1997 in San Francisco. At that time I had some problem. I told Mark about my problem. He told me what would happen to me in future. His prediction came true. I have asked him about his prediction powers. He told me that thoughts arose when he concentrated about something. He then told me that when he tried to know about his own future, he saw complete darkness. Mark died on December 31, 1998. Mark was definitely not Ishwara and yet he had predictive powers. So I suspect that omniscience has nothing to do with time but is some kind of psychic power.
I had also thought of the example from Gita that you mentioned. But the Ishvara who is omniscient and the Ishvara who advices the Arjuna on right conduct seem so separated. From the level of omniscient, whatever choices Arjuna is going to make are all determined. While on his level Arjuna sees many options of actions open to him, and ShrI Bhagavan teaches him the "correct" path, meaning at that level even Shri Bhagavan accepts the freedom of choice.
Many questions boil down to the nature and scope of "free will" or "icchaa-shakti". Is it really free or is it predetermined.
"ichha-shakti" makes sense only within time, in the realm of MahA-kAla or mahA-kAlI. For a timeless being, there is no meaning to iccha-shakti, or for that matter any purpose, dharma etc. Omnicience implies a sort of timelessness. While Ishvara also acts within time. Hence the difficulty. Ishvara apparently combines within himself timelessness as well as a temporal aspect. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1. Yes, most people will claim Ishwara is also omnipotent. Of course, compared to a Jiva Ishwara is more powerful. I, however, side with the Buddhists that Ishwara is not omnipotent. I do not agree with the Buddhists that Ishwara can not reduce karmic suffering. I do not believe in omnipotence because an omnipotent Ishwara would be able to save genuine devotees from karmic suffering. That is not the case in the world.
2. At the level of Ishwara everything is known. At the level of a Jiva very little is known.
3. Jiva does not have absolute free will. After all a Jiva can not will death away. A Jiva has limited free will. The point is that whatever be the Jiva's choice the omniscient Ishwara knows what will happen.
I do not think omniscience necessarily involves timelessness. Let me tell you a personal story. I had an American friend, Mark, when I was in graduate school. I did not see him for almost 13 years. I met him again in 1997 in San Francisco. At that time I had some problem. I told Mark about my problem. He told me what would happen to me in future. His prediction came true. I have asked him about his prediction powers. He told me that thoughts arose when he concentrated about something. He then told me that when he tried to know about his own future, he saw complete darkness. Mark died on December 31, 1998. Mark was definitely not Ishwara and yet he had predictive powers. So I suspect that omniscience has nothing to do with time but is some kind of psychic power.