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Removing The Sheen From Buddhism
#46
^ A dialogue about Princess SiSi and HuffPuff.





Sorry to keep coming back to the same item, but apparently I forgot to point out the following, in case anyone was so very deaf and so totally blind they couldn't work it out for themselves (well, there are such types, you know):



These two bits from #42 above -

www.buddhistchannel.tv/index.php?id=40,5769,0,0,1,0

1.
Quote:But it was forthcoming as Buddhism “was a more humanizing force for an otherwise rough and warlike people.” Buddhism also seemed to be more egalitarian than Bon, which at that time subscribed to animal and human sacrifice.
It's repeating Buddhist propaganda of the time in order to declare again - for our age - (just in case the onlooker thought of sympathising with Bonpos) that "Bon and Bonpos Deserved It".



Leaving out the old, obviously-motivated Tibetan Buddhist anti-Bon dawaganda, which doesn't count, is there any data/evidence that Bonpos sacrificed humans? In this case, with the phrase "Human Sacrifice", I mean specifically: religiously-dictated and pre-meditated death/mutilation/deliberate-injury of unwilling human. (Versus some harmless symbolic show that merely depicts a human being sacrificed.) And I mean a definite repeated pattern of it, not a one-off accident (something gone horribly wrong).

Human sacrifice has existed in human history across the world, so it's not impossible, but I'm just curious about the veracity (or not) in Bon in particular being guilty of it.



2.
Quote:After its entry into Tibet during King Sontsen Gampo’s tenure, Buddhism continued to be challenged by Bon as the people’s belief in rituals and spirits were deeply entrenched.
Again, read between the lines: "the people’s belief in rituals and spirits were deeply entrenched" is the usual Hystery-Contorted-By-Victors-And-Their-Modern-Blinkered-Cheerleaders' way of unwillingly admitting - out of necessity of logical continuity - how the Tibetan people were deeply attached to their own religion, and how serious levels of persecution (the kind that caused Bonpos to flee their homeland into neighbouring countries) was required to shake the masses from it and convert them to Buddhism.
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Messages In This Thread
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Pandyan - 02-23-2009, 08:27 AM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 02-23-2009, 10:51 AM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 02-23-2009, 07:00 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 02-24-2009, 10:43 AM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by HareKrishna - 02-25-2009, 12:51 AM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 02-25-2009, 05:28 AM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 02-25-2009, 10:38 AM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 02-26-2009, 08:19 AM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Bodhi - 02-26-2009, 09:58 AM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by HareKrishna - 03-05-2009, 01:27 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Bodhi - 03-06-2009, 11:35 AM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by HareKrishna - 03-06-2009, 11:52 AM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 05-09-2010, 06:53 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 05-12-2010, 08:43 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by HareKrishna - 05-13-2010, 03:42 AM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by agnivayu - 05-13-2010, 05:05 AM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by shamu - 05-25-2010, 01:38 AM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by agnivayu - 05-25-2010, 08:03 AM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by agnivayu - 05-25-2010, 08:04 AM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by sai_k - 05-26-2010, 06:03 AM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Guest - 07-06-2010, 08:14 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by acharya - 07-07-2010, 12:11 AM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by acharya - 07-07-2010, 12:37 AM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Guest - 07-09-2010, 02:20 AM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by shamu - 07-09-2010, 02:41 AM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Guest - 07-09-2010, 08:05 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Pandyan - 07-09-2010, 08:51 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 07-10-2010, 09:57 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 07-10-2010, 10:08 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 07-11-2010, 10:43 AM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Guest - 07-12-2010, 10:12 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Pandyan - 07-13-2010, 12:50 AM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Guest - 07-13-2010, 03:00 AM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 07-13-2010, 08:19 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by agnivayu - 07-14-2010, 08:51 AM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Guest - 07-14-2010, 09:43 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by agnivayu - 07-15-2010, 07:52 AM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Guest - 07-15-2010, 10:10 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by agnivayu - 07-16-2010, 06:20 AM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by HareKrishna - 07-17-2010, 05:27 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by HareKrishna - 07-17-2010, 05:57 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by HareKrishna - 07-17-2010, 05:58 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by HareKrishna - 07-17-2010, 06:25 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by HareKrishna - 07-17-2010, 07:24 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by HareKrishna - 07-17-2010, 07:39 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by agnivayu - 07-17-2010, 08:50 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by HareKrishna - 07-17-2010, 09:14 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 07-18-2010, 12:32 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by HareKrishna - 07-18-2010, 07:11 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by HareKrishna - 07-18-2010, 07:57 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by HareKrishna - 07-18-2010, 08:31 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 07-19-2010, 08:23 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by HareKrishna - 07-20-2010, 12:19 AM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by HareKrishna - 07-20-2010, 12:46 AM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by HareKrishna - 07-20-2010, 01:08 AM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Pandyan - 07-20-2010, 09:27 AM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Pandyan - 07-20-2010, 10:09 AM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by HareKrishna - 07-20-2010, 03:11 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by HareKrishna - 07-20-2010, 03:15 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 07-20-2010, 09:24 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by HareKrishna - 07-20-2010, 11:22 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 07-25-2010, 12:16 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 07-25-2010, 09:41 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by agnivayu - 07-27-2010, 06:08 AM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 07-27-2010, 09:17 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by agnivayu - 07-28-2010, 03:48 AM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by agnivayu - 07-28-2010, 06:42 AM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by HareKrishna - 07-28-2010, 08:30 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by HareKrishna - 07-28-2010, 08:58 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by HareKrishna - 07-28-2010, 09:02 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by agnivayu - 07-29-2010, 04:30 AM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by HareKrishna - 07-29-2010, 03:07 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 07-29-2010, 05:39 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by agnivayu - 07-29-2010, 06:46 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by HareKrishna - 07-29-2010, 07:57 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 08-01-2010, 05:29 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 08-01-2010, 05:54 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by agnivayu - 08-02-2010, 07:41 AM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by HareKrishna - 08-02-2010, 11:01 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 08-05-2010, 09:36 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by HareKrishna - 08-05-2010, 10:22 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by HareKrishna - 08-05-2010, 10:33 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by agnivayu - 08-06-2010, 04:11 AM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by agnivayu - 08-06-2010, 07:28 AM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 08-09-2010, 10:33 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Guest - 08-10-2010, 01:28 AM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by agnivayu - 08-10-2010, 08:45 AM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 08-15-2010, 07:50 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Guest - 08-20-2010, 06:41 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 10-31-2010, 08:19 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 10-31-2010, 09:14 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 11-01-2010, 09:50 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 11-01-2010, 09:52 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 11-04-2010, 03:53 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 11-05-2010, 05:43 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 11-07-2010, 08:33 AM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Guest - 11-09-2010, 11:31 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 11-11-2010, 02:50 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Bodhi - 11-11-2010, 04:46 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Guest - 11-11-2010, 09:28 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 01-24-2011, 01:52 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by HareKrishna - 01-25-2011, 12:05 AM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Guest - 02-01-2011, 07:01 AM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Guest - 02-01-2011, 07:04 AM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 02-23-2011, 07:53 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 04-02-2011, 10:07 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 04-14-2011, 12:59 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 09-01-2011, 11:01 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 09-01-2011, 11:39 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 09-01-2011, 11:51 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by HareKrishna - 09-05-2011, 05:23 AM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 09-05-2011, 07:24 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 09-08-2011, 06:53 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by HareKrishna - 09-08-2011, 08:49 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 09-10-2011, 08:35 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by HareKrishna - 09-11-2011, 09:28 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 09-12-2011, 06:08 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 09-17-2011, 05:48 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 09-17-2011, 08:19 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 09-25-2011, 10:56 AM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 09-25-2011, 12:39 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 09-25-2011, 12:50 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 10-22-2011, 07:46 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 10-22-2011, 07:47 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Meluhhan - 10-24-2011, 12:03 AM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by shamu - 10-24-2011, 02:57 AM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 10-24-2011, 05:16 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 10-24-2011, 08:25 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by HareKrishna - 10-25-2011, 09:03 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Meluhhan - 10-26-2011, 05:11 AM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 10-26-2011, 10:06 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by rhytha - 11-01-2011, 03:55 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 11-01-2011, 04:12 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 11-02-2011, 09:50 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 11-03-2011, 09:40 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 11-03-2011, 10:08 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 11-03-2011, 10:25 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by HareKrishna - 11-04-2011, 12:36 AM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by rhytha - 11-04-2011, 01:30 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 11-05-2011, 08:12 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by HareKrishna - 11-06-2011, 04:45 AM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 11-08-2011, 09:10 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 11-08-2011, 09:19 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by HareKrishna - 11-10-2011, 08:09 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by HareKrishna - 11-11-2011, 11:09 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 11-13-2011, 10:30 AM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 11-26-2011, 07:48 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by ramana - 04-06-2012, 02:41 AM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 04-13-2012, 07:30 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 04-13-2012, 07:37 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 04-13-2012, 07:43 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 04-13-2012, 07:50 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 04-13-2012, 07:51 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 04-13-2012, 08:06 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 04-13-2012, 08:12 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 04-13-2012, 08:21 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 04-13-2012, 08:33 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 04-14-2012, 11:23 AM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 04-14-2012, 11:29 AM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 04-14-2012, 11:33 AM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 04-14-2012, 12:06 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 04-14-2012, 12:28 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 04-14-2012, 12:58 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by dhu - 04-14-2012, 11:17 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Meluhhan - 04-21-2012, 08:17 AM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 08-04-2012, 08:13 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 08-04-2012, 08:16 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 08-04-2012, 08:22 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 08-04-2012, 08:22 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 08-04-2012, 08:23 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 09-10-2012, 08:06 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 12-28-2012, 06:32 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 02-24-2013, 05:38 AM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 05-08-2013, 10:18 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 05-10-2013, 10:54 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 05-10-2013, 10:57 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 05-10-2013, 11:35 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 05-12-2013, 09:17 AM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 05-24-2013, 09:19 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 05-24-2013, 09:35 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 05-25-2013, 09:03 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 05-25-2013, 09:15 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 05-25-2013, 09:40 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 05-25-2013, 09:52 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 05-25-2013, 10:03 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 05-25-2013, 10:43 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 05-26-2013, 09:55 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 05-27-2013, 11:20 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 05-27-2013, 11:44 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 05-27-2013, 11:57 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 05-28-2013, 09:17 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 06-04-2013, 11:04 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 06-08-2013, 10:38 AM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 06-08-2013, 10:45 AM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 06-08-2013, 10:52 AM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 06-08-2013, 11:01 AM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 06-08-2013, 11:07 AM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 06-08-2013, 11:27 AM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 06-09-2013, 09:48 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by ramana - 07-09-2013, 10:54 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 07-13-2013, 10:19 AM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 07-13-2013, 10:21 AM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 10-20-2013, 01:15 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 10-28-2013, 01:35 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 10-28-2013, 06:30 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 10-28-2013, 06:46 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 11-10-2013, 06:41 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 11-10-2013, 07:33 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 11-10-2013, 08:12 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 11-11-2013, 06:35 AM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 11-11-2013, 08:44 AM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 12-03-2013, 04:45 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 12-14-2013, 06:41 AM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 12-14-2013, 06:45 AM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 12-14-2013, 07:51 AM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 12-15-2013, 01:13 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 12-30-2013, 08:48 AM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 10-11-2014, 07:00 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 11-02-2014, 05:58 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 11-02-2014, 06:07 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 11-02-2014, 06:23 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 11-02-2014, 06:32 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 11-02-2014, 06:54 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 11-02-2014, 07:01 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 11-02-2014, 07:12 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 11-02-2014, 07:23 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 11-02-2014, 07:59 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 11-02-2014, 08:51 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 11-08-2014, 06:09 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 11-08-2014, 06:29 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 11-08-2014, 06:39 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 11-08-2014, 07:12 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 11-08-2014, 07:16 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 11-09-2014, 10:07 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 11-10-2014, 12:14 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 11-10-2014, 04:41 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 11-10-2014, 05:35 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 11-11-2014, 03:48 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 11-11-2014, 07:30 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 11-11-2014, 07:42 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 11-11-2014, 09:28 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 11-11-2014, 10:42 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 11-12-2014, 09:34 PM
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Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 12-13-2014, 09:26 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 12-13-2014, 10:05 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 01-05-2015, 10:51 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 01-10-2015, 12:37 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 01-10-2015, 12:39 PM
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Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 01-10-2015, 12:51 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 01-10-2015, 12:56 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 01-10-2015, 01:13 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 01-10-2015, 01:17 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 01-10-2015, 01:24 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 01-10-2015, 01:26 PM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 01-26-2015, 09:28 AM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 01-31-2015, 10:29 AM
Removing The Sheen From Buddhism - by Husky - 01-31-2015, 12:40 PM
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