[quote name='Husky' date='14 July 2010 - 07:37 PM' timestamp='1279115967' post='107458']
But I don't know that I've ever come across the Dutch thinking to approximate English "ch" with the impromptu/unofficial Dutch combine "tj" (as in Tja) - curious - a phonetic approximation which is arguably closer to ch than "sh/shy" is.
"Tsch", however, is something they would conceivably think of to write when they wish to approximate the *actual* ch sound as we know it (i.e. ch in English). Tsch doesn't sound remotely like a ch when pronounced in a Dutch way (Dutch sch is not the German sch, not even on ending -sch(e) when pronunciation changes in Dutch). But then, in English itself, "ch" is best approximated with "tsh" <- which doesn't work in Dutch because the Dutch don't officially/really have a "sh" sound. (See the problem? Ch is a nightmare to indicate in Dutch.)
So yes, when a Dutch person is trying to approximate a Bharatiya word with the Roman letters "Tschandra", it is quite possible that the original word was Chandra (if this were to be rendered in English).[/quote]Ishwa, don't want to bore you into a permanent state of slumber, but something I thought of more recently that's sort of related to this para above.
"Tsjechoslowakije" is the Dutch spelling for the foreign country (hence foreign name), the erstwhile "Czechoslovakia" (as it is spelled in English).
In other cases, I'd have guessed that Tsj is the Dutch approximation for Tsh, which is the English approximation for Ch.
However, in the case of "Tsjechoslowakije":
1. I can't work out whether the Tsj is approximating the Ch sound, since the English are using Cz and (yet) pronounce it as a Z ("Zekk republic" for Czech), whereas I'd have thought the English would have simply used Ch if the start of the country's actual name was a Ch sound. But then the Dutch pronounce "Tsjechië" (Czech Republic) as "Tch(y)egië" for the same (g is the Dutch throaty g), and specifically not with a Z, despite Z sounding the same in English and Dutch. So, if it was supposed to be pronounced Z then why didn't the Dutch use Z itself. :head hurts:
So the question is: what is the Czech pronunciation of, well, "Czech" and hence of names like Frantià ¡ek. I.e. what actual sound is everyone else trying to approximate here?
Do they pronounce Cz the way Czar is supposed to be pronounced and which is therefore spelled Ts too (as in Tsar), and which would then explain why English and Dutch don't look like they're talking about the same sound? But then the Dutch write Tsaar IIRC, not Tsjaar - so, again, why Tsjechië....
2. If the Czechs did pronounce it as "check", then it's still very possible that Pelsaert was trying to approximate Ch with Tsch, since he doesn't seem to be some official language expert charged with the task of determining and establishing the best official Dutch presentation of foreign sounds. He could have merely approximated to the best of his ability in both (a) discerning a different sound, as much of it as he could make out distinctly and (b.) rendering it for Dutch readers in a way they could understand what he had heard. And so the result of Tsch for Ch would still be typically Dutch.
3. Regardless as to whatever sound Tsj's application in "Tsjechië" may be referring to, I don't know when the Dutch consciously came up with the Tsj spelling combination for a foreign sound, which I personally think is a very good Dutch approximation for ch. Therefore, don't know whether such a transliteration was already commonly used in Pelsaert's time and hence familiar and available to him. That he must have tried for close enough renderings is indicated in #158's statement:
About this:
To get the best sort of transliterations of sounds into Dutch, one needs people who
(a) understand the sounds in a foreign language and
(b.) know enough of Dutch to know how to get Dutch people to make the same (sort of) sounds upon reading their (Dutch) use of the Latin alphabet.
So it is one often sees that migrants to NL who learn to understand Dutch/Dutch sounds are in a good position to make very good Dutch approximations for foreign sounds. For instance, there was a foreign lady who specifically re-spelled her son's original name Julio (and which, by her choice of conferral was pronounced with English J) as "Djulio", precisely so that most Dutch readers would get it largely right automatically upon reading it, and not say "Yulio" as they would have done had the original spelling been left unchanged. And so Dutch people did get it mostly right: when they pronounce his name, they say (English spelling) "Dj(y)ulio", which - although it makes the D sound - also makes the English J sound in passing, which you otherwise don't generally get the Dutch to consciously say (at least, when they're reading the Latin character set as representing the Dutch language. If they knew beforehand that the letters they were reading were representing, say, English instead, English-enabled Dutch people would say the English J. It's not that they can't pronounce the "English" J - it's *other* sounds such as the uniquely English "th" that non-English people find difficult to pronounce - it's that the English J sound doesn't exist in their language and hence their way of using the Latin character set for their Dutch language doesn't have it.)
But I don't know that I've ever come across the Dutch thinking to approximate English "ch" with the impromptu/unofficial Dutch combine "tj" (as in Tja) - curious - a phonetic approximation which is arguably closer to ch than "sh/shy" is.
"Tsch", however, is something they would conceivably think of to write when they wish to approximate the *actual* ch sound as we know it (i.e. ch in English). Tsch doesn't sound remotely like a ch when pronounced in a Dutch way (Dutch sch is not the German sch, not even on ending -sch(e) when pronunciation changes in Dutch). But then, in English itself, "ch" is best approximated with "tsh" <- which doesn't work in Dutch because the Dutch don't officially/really have a "sh" sound. (See the problem? Ch is a nightmare to indicate in Dutch.)
So yes, when a Dutch person is trying to approximate a Bharatiya word with the Roman letters "Tschandra", it is quite possible that the original word was Chandra (if this were to be rendered in English).[/quote]Ishwa, don't want to bore you into a permanent state of slumber, but something I thought of more recently that's sort of related to this para above.
"Tsjechoslowakije" is the Dutch spelling for the foreign country (hence foreign name), the erstwhile "Czechoslovakia" (as it is spelled in English).
In other cases, I'd have guessed that Tsj is the Dutch approximation for Tsh, which is the English approximation for Ch.
However, in the case of "Tsjechoslowakije":
1. I can't work out whether the Tsj is approximating the Ch sound, since the English are using Cz and (yet) pronounce it as a Z ("Zekk republic" for Czech), whereas I'd have thought the English would have simply used Ch if the start of the country's actual name was a Ch sound. But then the Dutch pronounce "Tsjechië" (Czech Republic) as "Tch(y)egië" for the same (g is the Dutch throaty g), and specifically not with a Z, despite Z sounding the same in English and Dutch. So, if it was supposed to be pronounced Z then why didn't the Dutch use Z itself. :head hurts:
So the question is: what is the Czech pronunciation of, well, "Czech" and hence of names like Frantià ¡ek. I.e. what actual sound is everyone else trying to approximate here?
Do they pronounce Cz the way Czar is supposed to be pronounced and which is therefore spelled Ts too (as in Tsar), and which would then explain why English and Dutch don't look like they're talking about the same sound? But then the Dutch write Tsaar IIRC, not Tsjaar - so, again, why Tsjechië....
2. If the Czechs did pronounce it as "check", then it's still very possible that Pelsaert was trying to approximate Ch with Tsch, since he doesn't seem to be some official language expert charged with the task of determining and establishing the best official Dutch presentation of foreign sounds. He could have merely approximated to the best of his ability in both (a) discerning a different sound, as much of it as he could make out distinctly and (b.) rendering it for Dutch readers in a way they could understand what he had heard. And so the result of Tsch for Ch would still be typically Dutch.
3. Regardless as to whatever sound Tsj's application in "Tsjechië" may be referring to, I don't know when the Dutch consciously came up with the Tsj spelling combination for a foreign sound, which I personally think is a very good Dutch approximation for ch. Therefore, don't know whether such a transliteration was already commonly used in Pelsaert's time and hence familiar and available to him. That he must have tried for close enough renderings is indicated in #158's statement:
Quote:That a sibilant can be equaled with a palatal by Pelsaert, can be witnessed with the name Tsiouwhan for Chauhan.Since an i is close enough to the Dutch j (i.e. the "y" in English), it makes Tsi similar in effect to Tsj. But I'd not be surprised that those working semi-informally would be coming up with several approximations all for the same sound. Post #154:
Quote:spelled by Pelsaert as Tsekandra and even Tschandra elsewhere.Conveying foreign sounds (sounds that don't occur in your language) in writing, using the character set that your language uses and which is customised to your language, is very hard. Dictionaries introduce all kinds of special characters to "explain" how to pronounce a word.
About this:
Quote:One can say that the -si- spelling followed by another vowel stands for a ca-kAra as in this case or a ja-kAra as in Siahan for Jahan.Yes, that sounds like the sort of approximations the Dutch would make for a J.
To get the best sort of transliterations of sounds into Dutch, one needs people who
(a) understand the sounds in a foreign language and
(b.) know enough of Dutch to know how to get Dutch people to make the same (sort of) sounds upon reading their (Dutch) use of the Latin alphabet.
So it is one often sees that migrants to NL who learn to understand Dutch/Dutch sounds are in a good position to make very good Dutch approximations for foreign sounds. For instance, there was a foreign lady who specifically re-spelled her son's original name Julio (and which, by her choice of conferral was pronounced with English J) as "Djulio", precisely so that most Dutch readers would get it largely right automatically upon reading it, and not say "Yulio" as they would have done had the original spelling been left unchanged. And so Dutch people did get it mostly right: when they pronounce his name, they say (English spelling) "Dj(y)ulio", which - although it makes the D sound - also makes the English J sound in passing, which you otherwise don't generally get the Dutch to consciously say (at least, when they're reading the Latin character set as representing the Dutch language. If they knew beforehand that the letters they were reading were representing, say, English instead, English-enabled Dutch people would say the English J. It's not that they can't pronounce the "English" J - it's *other* sounds such as the uniquely English "th" that non-English people find difficult to pronounce - it's that the English J sound doesn't exist in their language and hence their way of using the Latin character set for their Dutch language doesn't have it.)