Vegetarian Discussion

[Husky]

Vegetarians and vegetarianism in Hellenismos



Next to the well-known vegetarian Orphics and of course Pythagoras many centuries BCE, and Porphyrius (famously wrote a book on the Why of vegetarianism), and the vegetarians Plotinus of Neoplatonism and Seneca (both state the Why beautifully - will try to locate something),

Plato (Republic) seems to imply that Socrates -- the one who's famous for declaring at his trial that "I believe there are *Gods* more than any one of my accusers", or so Plato tells us -- is a vegetarian. It is often considered that Platon was himself a vegetarian (not merely for being the shishya of Socrates) but from his own statements as well.





Following bits (in order of my arranging) are from:

- advocacy.britannica.com/blog/advocacy/2010/08/the-hidden-history-of-greco-roman-vegetarianism/

- www.think-differently-about-sheep.com/Why_Animals_Matter_A%20Religious_Philosophical_Perspective_Philosophy_Quotations.htm

After Plutarch, the Greek philosopher Plotinus (205-270 CE) combined Pythagoreanism, Platonism, and Stoicism into a school of philosophy called Neoplatonism. He taught that all animals feel pain and pleasure, not just humans. According to Jon Gregerson, author of Vegetarianism: A History, Plotinus believed in order for humans to unite with the Supreme Reality, humans had to treat all animals with compassion. Seeking to practice what he preached, Plotinus avoided medicine made from animals. He allowed for the wearing of wool and the use of animals for farm labor, but he mandated humane treatment.



Continuing the work of Plotinus was the great Phoenician author and philosopher Porphyry (c. 232-c. 305 CE). He argued with observational and historical evidence in defense of vegetarianism and the rationality of animals. According to Spencer, in On the Impropriety of Killing Living Beings for Food, Porphyry argued meat eating encouraged violence, demonstrated the ability of animals to reason, and argued that justice should be extended to them.

(The title of Porphyry's book keeps getting translated differently into English each time, meaning seems to be consistent though.)





Seneca

C.5 - C.E.65

Roman Stoic philosopher, statesman, dramatist, and in one work humorist, of the Silver Age of Latin literature. He was tutor and later advisor to emperor Nero.



"But for the sake of some little mouthful of meat,

[color="#0000FF"]we deprive a soul of the sun and light,

and of that proportion of life and time it had been

born into the world to enjoy.[/color]

[color="#800080"](Well said. <img src='http://www.india-forum.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' /> How did he read my mind backwards in time? I've been plagiarised: those are *my* lines - except I couldn't form them.)[/color]



If true, the Pythagorean principles as to abstain from flesh, foster innocence; if ill-founded they at least teach us frugality, and what loss have you in losing your cruelty? It merely deprives you of the food of lions and vultures…let us ask what is best - not what is customary. Let us love temperance - let us be just - let us refrain from bloodshed."





Another Greek philosopher who argued on behalf of animals was the biographer and philosopher Plutarch (46-c. 120 CE). Influenced by Pythagorean philosophy, Plutarch adopted a vegetarian diet and wrote several essays in favor of vegetarianism as well as arguing that animals were rational and deserving of consideration. In particular, his essay On the Eating of Flesh is noteworthy for some arguments familiar to today’s vegetarians, such as the inefficiency of the human digestive system to handle flesh or the fact that humans lack the claws and fangs necessary for to the satisfaction of a carnivorous appetite. For these reasons, Plutarch is truly noteworthy as one of the earliest advocates of animal issues.





- "Socrates: Would this habit of eating animals not require that we slaughter animals that we knew as individuals, and in whose eyes we could gaze and see ourselves reflected, only a few hours before our meal?" [etc. Part of dialogue]

- Plato: "The Gods created certain kinds of beings to replenish our bodies... they are the trees and the plants and the seeds."





Hippocrates ("Hippocratic Oath" Hippocrates)

460 BC – ca. 370 BC was an ancient Greek physician and is considered one of the most outstanding figures in the history of medicine. He is referred to as the " father of medicine"

"The soul is the same in all living creatures, although the body of each is different."



Bion of Borysthenes,

325-c. 250 BC

was a Greek philosopher. After being sold into slavery, and then released, he moved to Athens, where he studied in almost every school of philosophy available.



Though boys throw stones at frogs in sport, the frogs do not die in sport, but in earnest.

Bion, Water and Land Animals,"

advocacy.britannica.com/blog/advocacy/2010/08/the-hidden-history-of-greco-roman-vegetarianism/

Before diving into the teachings of the Greek and Roman philosophers, it is important that the Greek and Roman diet be understood. For the Greeks and Romans, cereals, vegetables, and fruit composed much of their diet. The meat that was consumed was usually fish, fowl, or pigs, which were the cheapest and most convenient animals people could kill for their flesh. However, only the wealthiest citizens could afford to eat large amounts of meat on a regular basis.



The first philosopher in the West (uh, not West at all, only GrecoRomans are covered in the article, but magically claimed for all the 'west' somehow) to create a lasting vegetarian legacy was the Greek teacher Pythagoras. He was born on the island of Samos in 580 BCE and studied in what are now the countries of Greece, Egypt, and Iraq before establishing his school in southern Italy at the city of Croton. While Pythagoras is famous for his contributions to math, music, science, and philosophy, it is his philosophy that is of particular interest. He taught that all animals, not just humans, had souls, which were immortal and reincarnated after death. Since a human might become an animal at death, and an animal might become a human, Pythagoras believed that killing and eating non-human animals sullied the soul and prevented union with a higher form of reality. Additionally, he felt that eating meat was unhealthy and made humans wage war against one another. For these reasons, he abstained from meat and encouraged others to do likewise, perhaps making him one of the earliest campaigners for ethical vegetarianism.

what Pythagoras said on animals and the Why of his vegetarianism





www.ivu.org/history/greece_rome/greek.html

Orphic Communities (c540 BC - ?)



Extract from Orpheus and Greek Religion, by Prof. W.K.C. Guthrie, first published 1935, text from the 2nd revised edition, 1952. p.196:



. . . the doctrine of transmigration . . .The reasoning was this. If the soul of a man may be reborn in a beast, and rise again from beast to man, it follows that soul is one, and all life akin. Hence the most important Orphic commandment . . . to abstain from meat, since all meat-eating is virtually cannibalism. . . .

Even earlier than Pythagoras and the Orphics: the vegetarian Hesiod, writing on the "Yugas" of the Hellenes (c.f. the "Yugas" of the Daoists) -

www.ivu.org/history/greece_rome/hesiod.html

Hesiod (c. 8th century BC)



Greek poet and the earliest author of didactic verse. His two complete extant works are the Works and Days dealing with the agricultural seasons, and the Theogony, concerning the origin of the world and the genealogies of the gods.



Extract from The Penguin History of Greece by A.R.Burn, © 1969-85:



Hesiod also, in his Works and Days has a theory of human history.

. . The Golden Age was in the time of Kronos, when men were innocent food-gatherers and there was neither work nor war.



- from the 1957 IVU Congress souvenir book:

HESIOD : (8th century B.C.) - one of the earliest of the prophet poets of Greece who in old age left a populous city, retiring to a mountain to subsist on grains, berries, and fruits.

(Like many "rishis"/"ascetics" in the Far East did as well.)



The Golden Age:

[...]

The Silver Age, though less transcendentally pure, still preserved much of the primitive innocence, cultivated friendliness with the lower creatures, and wholly abstained from the slaughter of animals in the preparation of their food; nor did they offer sacrifices. But the feast of blood was inaugurated with



The Brazen Age:

[...]

Etc.

But it is oft stated that Romans didn't sacrifice animals until later (until Ceres).

IIRC Numa - first King of Rome - had instituted vegetarian sacrifices in Romans' Temple worship.





Don't know why there's a page for Julian. (All those interested already knew he was very frugal and usually ate vegetarian fare. But this does not imply he was vegetarian, i.e. at all times.) Also, he deliberately made the all-important specified animal sacrifices to the Gods at times, for the good of his nation and its future.



www.ivu.org/history/williams/julian.html

Note: this page quotes from some (clearly) highly anti-Julian/anti-Hellenistic author.

But it does refer to a statement from Gibbon's Decline And Fall for something honest:

"he [Emperor Julian] was heard to declare, with the enthusiasm of a missionary, that if he could render each individual richer than Midas and every city greater than Babylon, he should not esteem himself the benefactor of mankind, unless at the same time he could reclaim his subjects from their impious revolt against the immortal gods."

<img src='http://www.india-forum.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' /> How very Julian. (Declared his aim of reverting the entire empire back to its Gods, and that this would be true service to mankind.) Good stuff.