Quote:Inkling
06-02-2007, 08:25 PM
A mind bending college moment for me was discussing the Republic with the rest of the Honors students in my great books program and stumbling across what Plato says about the truly just man. According to Plato:
If there was ever a truly just man, he'd be mocked, beaten, and *crucified* (yes, the Greek word literally means crucified). Do we know anyone who might fit that description <img src='http://www.india-forum.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' />.
"Ooooh, oooh, I know the answer. Me me!" :raises paw:
The answer is (Kirk Douglas in) Spartacus and all his freed-"slaves", of course: they got mocked, beaten and crucified. That makes them Just Men as per Plato (that was the logic of the argument "Inkling" was trying for, wasn't it?)
And while the historical Spartacus' own end is now apparently debated ("did he perhaps die in battle after all?"), the historically-documented end of some 5000/6000 of the ex-slave freemen following him was in fact crucifixion.
But in any case, the one character we know could never have got crucified is the entity which christians call "jesus christ".
He simply never existed.
Naturally Plato's Republic would have been used by the christian fiction-writers in order to invent the non-existent "jesus christ" in such a way as to make him sound like the "just man" described by Hellenistic Philosophy. I.e. they either used Hellenistic writings in order to make the fictional "jesus christ" character seem the fulfillment/culmination of a Platonic ideal or this is simply something christians are desperately reading into it.
But then, that's what christianism/islam/false religions do: write themselves/their fictions into others' histories/religious literatures.
Sadly, just like the lying christians* pathetically erred in declaring the fictive jesus 'christ' to be the Jewish Messiah (when jesus specifically *can't* have been the messiah - see Jewish arguments e.g. at simpletoremember.com: Jews do not accept Jesus as the Messiah because...),
jesus has even less to do with Hellenismos (including its Philosophy). But all that's not even taking jesus' non-existence into consideration: which is only *one* of the fatal blows to the theory. Ancient Hellenes (as well as modern) have argued christianism's entire and utter unrelatedness to all of Hellenismos (which includes all Philosophy) at length.
* That christians would lie is not in question: christianism makes them do it. I parrot myself parroting Julian, who explains so incontrovertibly that Christianism Is An Evil Lie:
Quote:Emperor Julian writes in Contra Galilaeos ("Against the Christians"):
It is, I think, expedient to set forth to all mankind the reasons by which I was convinced that the fabrication of the Galilaeans [color="#800080"](=those who call themselves christians)[/color] is a fiction of men composed by wickedness.
Back to the topic:
Julian didn't get "mocked, beaten and crucified".
But christians (=evil terrorists) plotted his death multiple times. In the end - as christians owned up - a christian plot had Julian skewered. (And so he went off to Olympus apparently, where we're told he is united with his Divine Parents, his Gods. But aren't all pious Heroes?)
So, not crucified. But a Just Man nevertheless.
And many Hellenes of the emperor's time and after - who are the sole people to know what Plato meant (since they, like Plato, were Hellenes, while 'Inkling' is not -> instead, he's of the kind that genocided the Hellenes) -
many Hellenes of the emperor's time and after certainly recognised in Julian a fulfillment of all of Plato's best ideals. Especially as includes an Ideal Emperor*. Who am I to argue.
(* Just to make it clear: Emperor Julian as Platonic Ideal for emperor is a *famous* topic in his biographies. It's not merely a nice way of describing Julian. And Julian regarded Marcus Aurelius as his standard for just imperial governance.)
Score:
- Julian +1 (Again. Still. "How does he do it?" <img src='http://www.india-forum.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='
' /> )- "jesus christ" (jeebusjehovallah) forever stuck at 0 if not negative infinity. Blame it on his non-existence.