Removing The Sheen From Buddhism

[Husky]

Post 2/2





Actually, that Silappadikaaram is a Hindu epic by a Hindu author was properly discussed - by those who have read it (makes all the difference) - in various links found off this older post at IF (also: that Tirukkural + Tiruvalluvar etc are Hindu not otherwise) -

[quote name='Pandyan' date='23 August 2008 - 06:26 AM' timestamp='1219452487' post='86908']

GS, I don't think Thiruvallulvar was a Jain. Dravidianists label all great tamils as jains or something else in their drive to strip tamils of any Hindu identity. They also claim Ilango Adigal was a Jain, but there are references in tamil texts that prove otherwise. As for non-veg, entire tamil pop (save brahmins and few upper caste) has always been non-veg, there is no use dissuading the practice.



http://groups.yahoo.com/group/agathiyar/message/27434

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hinducivil...sage/11417

1. Tiruvalluvar also sings of those who nilamisai neetu vazhvar -

another concept alient to Jainism.

2. Tiruvalluvar holds the Brahmin as the gold standard the society

should emulate, and the possibility that a Brahmin might forget to recite

the Veda as the ultimate digression from dharma - something that does not

fit with Jainism.

3. Tiruvalluvar translates and paraphrases directly from the

Manusmriti and The Bhagavad Gita - neither Jaina texts. He does not cite

verses from any Jaina text.

[/quote]



The stuff the above links to and led to (reposted here, since it doesn't seem to be the sort that gets archived):

1.1. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/agathiyar/message/27434

Re: Valluvar





Dear Members,



þõÁ¼¨Ä ¾Á¢Æ¢ø þÂüÈ¡¨ÁìÌ ÁýÉ¢ì¸ §Åñθ¢§Èý. §¿ÃÁ¢ý¨Á§Â ¸¡Ã½õ. À¢È¢¦¾¡Õ

ºÁÂõ «í¹Éõ þÂüÚ§Åý ±ýÀÐ ¾¢ñ½õ.



Dear N Ganesan,



Ref. msg # 27384.



<<<Looking at the mileau, literature and epigraphy, great Tamil

scholars like S. Vaiyapuri Pillai,

I. Mahadevan, K. Zvelebil, K. N. Subrahmanyam ..... have suggested

the background of Valluvar as Jaina.>>>



S Vaiyapuri Pillai was indeed a great Tamil scholar, and one of the

precious gems of India. Other 3 just don't belong to the same league

as Pillai. It is a travesty to group I Mahadevan along with the other

3 scholars, or with any scholar. Mahadevan's popularity is entirely

due to his being a coconut that never fails to please the

Eurocentrists; not due to his scholarship. Just like Parpola,

Mahadevan's attempts at deciphering have been madness without

methods. Enough said on that. Just as Sir Syed Ahmad was popular in

the British times, the likes of Mahadevan would always be popular :-)



Yes, Vaiyapuri Pillai *suggested* that Tiruvalluvar *could've* been a

Jaina. He didn't establish so. He was an outstanding scholar and

intellectual, but he has been, like any great scholar, wrong about

arriving at some concllusions. For example, he opined that

Tolkappiyar could've been a Jaina on unconvincing grounds. I've

discussed that in detail in IC and argued otherwise:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IndianCivi...sage/34062



In fact, the above post was a response to your suggestion, but you

never came back on that.



Are you aware that Vaiyapuri Pillai also argued that Tirukkural was

in many instances a translation of Manusmriti? Yes, the same

Manusmriti that all Dravidianists hate without reading, just as they

love Tirukkural or Tolkappiyam without reading them. Please see

Vaiyapuri Pillai's ¬Ã¡öò ¦¾¡Ì¾¢ - part 7, pp. 65 - 68. Here is a

paraphrase & translation of what Pillai has said in those pages:



"There are many couplets of the Kural that are either translations or

adaptations of Manusmriti. (No, not the other way round.) Some of his

citations would be:



- Kural 57 and Manusmriti IX:12



- Kural 41 and Manusmriti III:78. This verse of smriti, Pillai

argues, has been reiterated by Tiruvalluvar more than once.



- Kural 396 and Manusmriti II:218



Of course, there are many more arguments from Vaiyapuri Pillai that

also state that Tirukkural is inspired by or is a translation of the

Hindu dharmashastras. Now it is easy to see why Pillai was so much

detested by the Dravidianists, no? Anyway, if you're just going to

invoke Pillai's name as if it is pranava mantra and then claim that

Tiruvalluvar was a Jaina, then here are the words of the same man

that Tirukkural is Manusmriti inspired. What does it make

Tiruvalluvar then? A Manuvadi? Will you accept this? What is

essential is to list one's arguments and evaluate them critically. We

should remember Tiruvalluvar's word that mere authority isn't

everything, and the truth alone is worth pursuing. Just flashing the

names of a few authorities wouldn't suffice.



<<<It's important to note that these scholars have nothing to do with

Dravidian movement.>>>



I don't know about Mahadevan. You're right that the others had

nothing to do with the Dravidianist movement. In fact, Vaiyapuri

Pillai often deflated their nonsensical myths, and was most hated by

the Dravidianists, who lacked, and still continue to lack,

scholarship of any kind. They attacked him on every possible occasion

just as they attacked P S Subrahmanya Sastri; both committed the

same "crime": genuine scholarship, which was, and continues to be, a

taboo among the Dravidianists :-)



<<<By Valluvar's times, sangam society was changing>>>



Please tell me what was Tiruvalluvar's time. And your reasons for

arriving at that date.



<<<and a temple/tank/sabhai village society under imperial dynasties

were being formed. Brahmins and the land grants to them were on the

increase.>>>



For this to follow, you must first establish the date of

Tiruvalluvar :-)



<<<Valluvar possibly a Jaina - Tamil scholars write:

http://www.services.cnrs.fr/wws/arc/ctam...00068.html>>>



I can't open this url. I shall try again.



<<<Valluvar clearly was against the varnasrama system that placed one

section against another by birth...>>>



If so, why does he write Kural 543 and 259? Is it possible to have

the brahmin without varnasrama? Is it not an irony that the same

Valluvar that you claim opposed varnasrama measures the king's

righteousness through his ability to preserve the chanting of the

vedas and the brahmins who chant them?



<<<Clearly the Jaina (eg., as we find in Valluvar) advocacy of

avoiding meat had an effect among Tamils.>>>



Can you please show me any Sangam Tamil text that depicts the

brahmins as consuming meat? Aside: Please tell me how Kural 550

agrees with the Jaina advocacies of ahimsa?



<<<Puujaa and worship of trees, religious artefacts are from Buddhism

and Jainism from early ancient India. In fact, the Madurai Kaanchi

elaborately describes a pujaa ceremony at a Jain basti in Sangam

Tamil. That's taken by scholars of Indic religions as an early

precursor what we see as Puujaa in modern Hinduism. Early vedas

neither have puujaa nor veggie lovers' yajnas.>>>



(The assertions are becoming increasingly more absurd.

Gods-based/Gods-centred religions are the very religions that originate poojaa. Including, of course, worship of trees (and waters, mountains etc). There's a wide range of ancient and interrelated Hindu texts on poojaa and the meaning thereof. "How to worship the Cow. How to worship the Sun, Surya Bhagavan. How to worship the Shivalingam. How to worship ..."

In heathen religions, poojaa derives - rather linearly - from attachment (bhakti) to Gods. Actually holds literally: the Gods themselves reveal how to worship them - as only they can. Which is why, for example, *Hindu* rituals to Murugan *work*. And which in turn would be why SL Buddhist monks at Kataragama have now shifted from plan A - their invented pseudo-rituals - to plan B: usurping the Hindu rituals after first preventing Hindus from continuing to perform these. <- A ground-level example right there for where plagiarism began and poojaa didn't.

Anyway, Buddhists venerating the Bodhi tree in memory of its association with the Buddha's enlightenment is different from heathens like Shintos worshipping Tree and River Gods or Hindus worshipping Ganga or Tulasi Devi or any Tree. Actually, each and every tree - from leaf to root - is moreover identified by Hindus with the tridasha (koTi).)



There is no puja or bhakti in the Early vedas? Have you read Jeanine

Miller's "Does Bhakti Appear in the Rig Veda"? Or Jan Gonda's "Vision

of the Vedic Poets"? I recommend the first followed by the latter.

Please note that I've quoted only European authors :-)



Thanks.



[color="#800080"](Wish Hindus would dispense with referring to irrelevant people writing their irrelevant opinions on materials that forever don't concern them.

The Vedas are easy proof of origin of Hindus' bhakti. Hindus should go ahead and just cite it as such. E.g. IIRC even Shiva's personal names that are the Skt equivalents of "Papa" and "Mama" derive from the Vedam. When Hindus translate their Surya mantras as "adorations to Surya", they really do mean *adorations*. You can see it in Hindoos' greedy faces when they look to the Sun while worshipping Him. I fancy that's the sort of expression Julian wore when gazing at his Father, Helios, also.

Besides, invoking and feeding the Gods and singing to them IS poojaa: that's what many Vedic rituals involve. And the Hindus performing them feel quite free to ask for all kinds of good things - for all of Hindu society and even the world - from their Divine Parents, because that's what children do. And their Divine Parents shower it on them, because that's what loving parents do.)[/color]





1.2. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/agathiyar/message/27451

Bhairava paper



Re: Local Deities worship-Jainism





Dear Banukumar Rajendran,



Ref. msg # 27447.



<<<ilango Adigal uses the terms (used by Devar in his Kadavul Vazhthu)

to praise Lord Arugan (...) Does the word siva (for Lord Shiva)occurs

in any of the earliest literatures in tamil?>>>



There is little in Silappadikaram to show as evidence that Ilango was

a Jaina. Au contraire, there is a lot to show that he was an orthodox

Hindu saint. I would paraphrase the arguments of many scholars here.



The argument that Ilango was a Jaina saint was suggested for the

first time by the eminent commentator Adiyarkkunallar. He interpreted

the term ̽š¢ü §¸¡ð¼õ (Silappadikaram canto 30:165 +) as

Aruhankoil, and this was interpreted by V Kanakasabhai Pillai who

suggested that Ilango could've been a Nirgrantha Jaina monk. V R R

Dikshitar correctly points out that the term ̽š¢ø just

meant 'eastern gate' and the term §¸¡ð¼õ is undoubtedly the

Tamilization of Sanskrit 'Koshta' meaning a hall, temple,

congregation etc. So, this term doesn't confirm a reference to a

Jaina temple. As Dikshitar points out, Ilango enters the yagasala,

where a vedic yajna is performed, along with Senguttuvan in that

canto. This would certainly be a strong argument that Ilango was a

Hindu saint.



A term that may've stood for Nirgrantha is also found in

Silappadikaram - ¿¢îºó¾ì §¸¡ð¼õ (9:10 +). Malati, vists this temple

after visiting other Hindu deities such as Balarama, Siva and

Murugan. So, while this verse confirms that Jainism also existed in

the Tamil country then, it doesn't suggest that the epic reflected

Jaina ethos. I can't think of any direct reference to Arukan in the

epic. In case others do, I shall be obliged to learn the same.







Lord Siva is not mentioned by name anywhere in Silappadikaram or in

the Sangam literature, though there are countless references to Him

through epithets and also references to His legends in the epic:



"¬ÄÁ÷ ¦ºøÅý - The Son of the Lord seated under the banyan tree" (24:

Á½Å½¢ §ÅñΧšõ 10 +), ÌÆÅ¢ò ¾¢í¸û þÁÂÅ÷ ²ò¾ - The One who bears the

astamichandra on his tuft of hair" (2: 40 +), "À¢ÈÅ¡ ¡쨸ô ¦Àâ§Â¡ý

§¸¡Â¢ø - The temple of the Lord that was never born" (5: 168

+), "À¡ö¸¨Äô À¡¨Å - Durga or Siva Sakthi" (12:65 +), 12: ¯¨ÃÀ¡ðÎ Á¨¼

refers to the dispatch of Vibhavari to the Vindhya hills after Siva;s

marriage to Uma, "þ¨ÈÅý ¬¼ø ¸ñ¼ÕǢ «½íÌ - the damsel who made the

Lord (Siva) dance" (20: 35 +), þÇõÀ¢¨È ÝÊ þ¨ÈÅý - The Lord wearing a

yound crescent in His coiffure" (22:85 +), 26:50 - 60 refers to Siva

receiving the honours of veda yajna, ¦ºïº¨¼ Å¡ÉÅý - The Lord with the

matted hair (26: 90 +), ¯¨ÁÂÅû ´Õ ¾¢Ãý ¬¸ þÁÂÅý ¬Ê ¦¸¡ðÊî §º¾õ - The

dance of the Lord who had Uma as His part" (28:67 +), "¯¨Á¦Â¡Õ À¡¸òÐ

´ÕÅ¨É - The One with Uma as His half" (28:100 +), ¯¨ÁÂÅû ´Õ ¾¢Ãý ¬¸

µí¸¢Â þÁÂÅý ¬Ê ¦¸¡Î¦¸¡ðÊ ¬¼Öõ - The Kodukotti dance of the Lord

(Siva) for whom Uma kept time" (6:35 +), 6: 40 + refers to the

Pandaranga dance of Siva, 5:200 + alludes to Siva burning the Cupid

with His Third Eye, ѾøŢƢ ¿¡ð¼òÐ þ¨È§Â¡ý §¸¡Â¢Öõ - the temple of

the Lord with the Third Eye on His forehead (14:5 +).



Also, there are numerous references to Vishnu, and the epic is packed

with Puranic themes, especially from the Bhagavata Purana. In fact, I

would categorically state - this is my ongoing project - that the

Sangam Tamil society was drenched in the Puranic lore that formed its

nucleus.



The great U V Swaminatha Aiyar considered Silappadikaram a Saivite

work, though V R R Dikshitar points out to the fact that the epic is

replete with both Saiva and Vaishnava concepts and argues that Ilango

was more of an orthodox Hindu saint.

(Not just bits on Shiva and Vishnu but also Murugan and Devi etc. Typical Hindu religion as still exists in the same region.)



Thanks,

Kalavai Venkat



1.3. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/agathiyar/message/27509



Bhairava paper



Re: Local Deities worship-Jainism





Dear Banukumar Rajendran,



Ref. msg # 27455.



<<<You pl go throu' the Ilango's ARavurai,(183-202)in Varantharu

Kaathai. The each and every lines in that is undoubtfully doctrines

of Jainism.Your valuable comments is requested in this regard.It is

wonder, though he's an orthodox Hindu(according to you),he seems to

advocate a jaina aRam(dharma)!!!.>>>



This set of verses you've quoted must be read along with the verses

that precede it: 165 - 182. Many eminent scholars, such as V R R

Dikshitar and P S S Sastri have discussed these in detail. Those

concluding lines are reproduction of Taittiriya Aranyaka 8:4:1 and

8:9:1 and Taittiriya Upanishad 2:4:1 and 2:9:1. (<- "Reproducing" aka parroting the Vedas.)

Seen in this light, the verses you've quoted advocate dharma, ahimsa etc, and also show

unmistakeable influence of Tirukkural. These virtues advocated are

very much common to every Indic sect be it Hinduism, Jainism or

Buddhism. So, what you've quoted alone doesn't confirm Jaina

influence. These can very well be interpreted as Hindu advocacies

too. Au contraire, the verses preceding these and the fact that

Ilango attends a veda yajna in the very same context lend more

credence to the assertion that Ilango was an orthodox Hindu.

[color="#800080"](Not only parroted the Vedas but attended a yagnya. Enough evidence to convict Adigal.)[/color]



<<<What do you mean by that.You never came across any direct

reference to the arugan in the epic? Again to you.Does the word siva

(which stood to Rudran) occurs in any of the oldest literatures in

Tamil?.>>>



Yes, I can't recall any direct mention of the name Arugan in

Silappadikaram. Is there any?



Here is what I wrote in msg # 27451: "Lord Siva is not mentioned by

name anywhere in Silappadikaram or in the Sangam literature, though

there are countless references to Him

through epithets and also references to His legends in the epic...."



Thanks

Kalavai Venkat





1.4. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/agathiyar/message/27532



Re: Local Deities worship-Jainism (attn: N Ganesan)





Dear N Ganesan,



Ref. msg # 27507.



<<<ÅûÙŨà «Á½ ÓÉ¢Åá¸ì ¸¡ðÎõ ¦À¡ü¸¡Í ¾ü§À¡Ð ¸ø¸ò¾¡ þó¾¢Â «Õí¸¨Ä¸ò¾¢ø

¯ûÇÐ: Author: Mukherjee, Bratindra Nath, 1932- Title: The Indian

gold : an introduction to the cabinet of gold coins in the Indian

Museum / by B.N. Mukherjee with the assistance of T.N.Raychaudhuri.

Publisher: Calcutta : Indian Museum, 1990. 100 p., [21] p. of

plates : col. ill. ; 29 cm.



...



¾¢ÉÁ½¢ ¿¡Ç¢¾Æ¢ø ÁðÎÁøÄ¡Ð ¬í¸¢Äò¾¢Öõ ÅûÙÅ÷ ¦À¡ü¸¡¨ºì ÌÈ¢òÐ ³Ã¡Å¾õ Ţâ

Å¡¸ ±Ø¾¢ÔûÇ¡÷. A unique gold coin with Tiruvalluvar's portrait,

Iravatham Mahadevan. Studies in South Indian Coins, Volume V/A.V.

Narasimha Murthy. 1995, 150 p., 52 plates, þó¾ô Òò¾¸ò¾¢ø ¯ûÇ þÚ¾¢ì

¸ðΨÃ. ÀÊòÐôÀ¡÷ì¸ §Åñθ¢§Èý. þó¾ ¬ö×áø ÀüÈ¢ ±ÉìÌ ³Ã¡Å¾õ¾¡ý

¦º¡ýÉ¡÷¸û.>>>



I haven't seen the second of the books you've cited (I've volumes 1-3

not 4-5), but I do have the first. I don't understand which coin in

the publication can ever be associated with Tiruvalluvar. I would be

thankful if you could draw my attention to the coin # and to

Mahadevan's reasons for perceiving it as Tiruvalluvar's depiction. Do

you have coin # 195 in mind? I've uploaded the picture of the coin,

and it can be viewed at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/agathiyar/files/ (See the file

titled "Is this a Tiruvalluvar Coin?)



In any case, here are my observations:



Source: The Indian Gold An Introduction to the Cabinet of Gold Coins

in the Indian Museum by B.N.Mukherjee with the assistance of

T.N.Raychaudhari, Indian Museum, Calcutta, 1990



Notes: Please see the 3 photographs in the above uploaded file.

Photograph 1 is that of exhibit 'n' of coin # 195 from Plate X.

Photograph 2 is that of Plate IXA of one side of coins # 194 and 195.

Photograph 3 is that of Plate IXB of the other side of coins # 194

and 195.



The East India Company issued both these coins. So, their date must

be posterior to 1600 AD. Neither has any legend, so we are not in a

position to know whom they depict.



Part B: A Catalogue of Select Gold Coins, p. 84 tells us that coin #

194 depicts Vishnu. It says that coin # 195 depicts a saint or deity

seated cross-legged with an umbrella over his head.



There is no mention in either to connect the same with Tiruvalluvar.

On the strength of coin # 194, which depicts Vishnu (per the book),

one may conclude, on the basis of striking similarity in iconographic

depiction that coin # 195 also depicts either Vishnu or a Vaishnava

saint.



I would be curious to hear Mahadevan's argument, though given his

track record, I would be really surprised if he has any logical

argument to offer. In any event, this coin is from the era of the

rule of the East India Company in India. In other words, it is of a

very late origin. Even if we pretend that it depicts Tiruvalluvar -

an unsubstantiated assumption - how does it establish that he was a

Jaina?



<<<³Ã¡Å¾õ Á¸¡§¾Åý À¨Æ ¾Á¢úì ¸ø¦ÅðÎ츨Çô ÀÊò¾È¢Ôõ ӨȨÂì ¸ñÎÀ¢

Êò¾ «È¢»÷.>>



Factually incorrect.



<<<³Ã¡Å¾õ Ó¾ýӾġ¸ º¢óÐ Óò¾¢¨Ã¸¨Ç ¬öó¾Å÷>>>



Again factually incorrect.



<<<«ó¾ ¿¡¸Ã¢¸ò¾¢ø ¾¢Ã¡Å¢¼÷ ÀíÌ ¸½¢ºÁ¡ÉÐ ±ýÚ ÀÄ ¬ö×ì ¸ðΨøû

¾óÐûÇ¡÷.>>>



He has claimed so. He hasn't substantiated that. His methodology,

like Parpola's, is illogical. One can say, as I have critiqued

Mahadevan's deciphering of select exhibits in IC, that Mahadevan

starts with pre conceived notions, and follows loose methodologies to

arrive at his cherished inferences. Anyone can make any claim, but

that doesn't make it the proof.



Thanks.

2.1. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/INDOLOGY/message/4090



Re: [Y-Indology] Re: Book-Burning in India



Re: Book-Burning in India





Dear N. Ganesan,



Ref. msg # 4077.



<<<Tiruvalluvar is considered a Jaina by Tamil scholars like Mayilai

Ciini VEGkaTacaami, A. Chakravarti Nayinaar, I. Mahadevan, S.

Vaiyapuri, K. Zvelebil ...>>>



Earlier, I corrected you on this in Agathiyar. Perhaps, it is time to

repeat :-)



That Tiruvaluvar was a Jaina, is at best a proposition, not a fact.

Many scholars have presented more convincing arguments that he should

only have been a Hindu saint. S Vaiyapuri Pillai presented both sides

of the argument. It is unfair to quote him selectively -- especially,

when I've earlier informed you of Pillai's other set of arguments,

reproduced below:



Source: Vaiyapuri Pillai's Araicchit Tokuti - part 7, pp. 65 - 68.

Here is a paraphrase & translation of what Pillai has said:



"There are many couplets of the Kural that are either translations or

adaptations of Manusmriti, such as:



- Kural 57 and Manusmriti IX:12



- Kural 41 and Manusmriti III:78. This verse of smriti, Pillai points

out, has been reiterated by Tiruvalluvar more than once.



- Kural 396 and Manusmriti II:218 "



Of course, there are many more arguments from Vaiyapuri Pillai that

also state that Tirukkural is inspired by or is a translation of the

Hindu dharmashastras. Anyway, if you're just going to invoke Pillai's

name as if it is a pramana and then claim that Tiruvalluvar was a

Jaina, then here are the words of the same man that Tirukkural is

Manusmriti inspired. Do you think a Jaina monk will translate

Manusmriti? Will a Jaina monk measure a king's efficay by his ability

to protect the vedic chanting of the brahmins, as Tiruvalluvar has

done? What is essential is to list an author's arguments and evaluate

them critically. We should remember Tiruvalluvar's word that mere

authority isn't everything, and the truth alone is worth pursuing.



Thanks.





2.2 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/INDOLOGY/message/4098



Re: [Y-Indology] Re: Book-Burning in India



Re: Book-Burning in India





Dear Nanda Chandran,



There is *no* mention of beef anywhere in that couplet. Apparently, N

Ganesan is chasing beef and Jainism all over Tirukkural like a deer

chases the chimera :-)



Tiruvalluvar makes no direct mention of yajnas in that couplet. That

inference, though reasonably, has been made by the commentators. All

the 3 traditional commentators -- Parimelazhagar, Parithiyar and

Kalingar -- say that the benefit that ensues killing a life is not

befitting the renunciate, though they point out that grahasthas are

advised that sacrificing to the devas in the yajnas ensures their

well-being.



Only one of the traditional commentators -- Mankkudavar -- says that

even sacrificing a life in yajna is to be avoided.



Thanks.



--- In INDOLOGY@yahoogroups.com, "vpcnk" <vpcnk@H...> wrote:

> but where's specific mention of beef here?

>

> > The beef and other meats used vedic yajnas

> > is refered in Tirukkural 328,

> > "nan2Ru Akum Akkam peritu en2in2um cAn2ROrkkuk

> > kon2rU Akum Akkam kaTai".

> >

> > Even though people say that one can gain wealth

> > and welfare with animal sacrifices in yajnams,

> > great men scorn such odious gains. See ParimElazakar

> > commentary, "tEvar poruTTu vELvikkaN kon2Raal in2pam mikum,

> > celvam peritAm ..." Ie., if killing in vedic sacrifices

> > for the sake of Devas will increase wealth, happiness".

> >

> > Tiruvalluvar is considered a Jaina by Tamil scholars

> > like Mayilai Ciini VEGkaTacaami, A. Chakravarti Nayinaar,

> > I. Mahadevan, S. Vaiyapuri, K. Zvelebil ...





2.3 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/INDOLOGY/message/4121



Re: [Y-Indology] Re: Book-Burning in India



Re: Book-Burning in India





Dear vishal,



Ref. msg # 4108.



<<<In any case, condemnation/rejection of Yajnas is not a Jain

monopoly. The Samkhyas also had the same attitude.>>>



Correct. Also, Tiruvalluvar doesn't oppose veda or veda yajna

anywhere. While expounding the greatness of a certain virtue, he

often emphasises on its relative greatness vis-a-vis everything else.

For example, in Kural 297, he says:



"Should one always speak the truth

Where is the need to practise any other virtue?"



It will be ridiculous if one were to take this verse out of context

and declare that Tiruvalluvar rejected all virtues other than

speaking the truth :-)



In Kural 55, he says,



"Gods she worships not, but raises from her bed worshipping her

husband

Should she say, "Rain!", so it shall."



Will it not be ridiculous if one (mis)interprets this verse and

infers that Tiruvalluvar proscribed the worship of Gods for women? If

any, Tiruvalluvar considered the chanting of veda and performance of

yajna the most essential service to the society. Consider the

following:



"The cows shall cease to yield milk, the brahmins shall forget their

6 fold duties,

Should the king fail to rule justly." -- Kural 560



"To the perpetuity of the vedas of the brahmins

It is the sceptre of the king that serves as the cause." -- Kural 543



So, it is natural for Tiruvalluvar to say that ahimsa is even more

preferable to veda yajna, when he discusses the merit of ahimsa.

Since he glorifies veda yajna elsewhere, one can be certain that he

is not discounting the veda.



One must be careful and not interpret a verse selectively.



Thanks.

The following is on the recurring nouveaux accusations of "Book Burning" by Hindus.

3.1 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/INDOLOGY/message/4068



Re: [Y-Indology] Re: Book-Burning in India





Dear Dr. V V Raman,

[...]

Vel Murugan had grandly alleged that the brahmins burnt Tamil

manuscripts in veda yajnas during the bhakti era. I am awaiting his

evidences eagerly. If a text is lost over time, it has become

fashionable among a few politically motivated to blame it on the

brahmins. It will be admirable if people weaving such conspiracy

stories care to read some critical texts, instead of drawing

inspiration from the Dravidianist rumour mill. A good resource for

Vel Murugan will be Zvelebil's account [2] on lost texts. He lists a

number of Tamil texts that have been lost over the last 2,000 years

or so. The list includes 44 texts on grammar, 30 texts on the akam

genre, 8 on puram genre, 9 on kavya, 12 musical treatises, 23 drama

texts and 56 assorted texts (a total of 182) and this list is not

complete per Zvelebil.



Ironically, the list incluldes translations of Ramayana, Mahabharata

[3], Puranas, eulogies on rishis, adaptations of Sanskrit texts and

bhakti treatises. Hardly a case of brahmin conspiracy to banish Tamil

texts! In addition, one can easily list a number of commentaries on

bhakti treatises that've been lost over the last 1,000 years.



Unfortunately, many have been generating such careless and uninformed

myths for decades. It will be sad if such myths are not countered

with facts atleast occasionally. Hence my detailed response. It

wasn't directed at you. I hope you understand.



Btw, if someone is really looking for well documented instances of

burning texts then he needs to look upto the Dravidianist regimes. C

N Annadurai called for a campaign to burn Kamba Ramayanam in the

assembly. Thousands of copies and commentaries were burnt by the DMK

cadre. Annadurai was quite peeved at Kamban's (a non-brahmin poet)

positive presentation of Manusmriti and was alarmed (precursors of

the Taliban?) at the sensual depictions in the text. Apparently,

Annadurai alternated between fear and fascination of sex, and this

led him to turn his ire on a classic that was honest and sublime in

its portrayal of sensuality. Not content with writing a crude

pamphlet [4] denigrating Kambar's classic, he advocated burning the

original itself.

(DMK is anti-Romance and so finds even more reasons to hate Hindu religion. <snip> Don't know why the christian taliban - known as DMK - doesn't follow through with their aversion completely: stop reproducing altogether. That will also stop the number of anti-Hindu cryptos carrying Hindoo names like "Vel Murugan".

"Annadurai alternated between fear and fascination of sex" <- that's a peculiarly christo mentality.)



Interestingly, people tend to remember/assimilate facts shorter than

they remember/assimilate myths. :-)



Thanks.



Footnotes:



[1] Namakkal Kavijnar Ramalingam Pillai, Aryaravathu Dravidaravathu

(What is this myth of Aryans Dravidians?), 1947



[2] Kamil V Zvelebil, Companion Studies to the History of Tamil

Literature, 1989



[3] Atleast 3 of versions of Mahabharata



[4] Kamba Rasam

In TN at least, this accusation of "Book burning by Hindus" is becoming very common, courtesy christianism and its new best friend the neo-'Buddhists': the accusation that brahmins - the token symbol of 'Hinduism' (Hindus' religion is the real target) - burnt Buddhist and Jain books. Through the process of repetition, it is made into 'evidence' for 'persecution'.