X-posting this from the Judaism thread where an article declared that Hinduism was idolatry but that Daoism is acceptable because it supposedly had no deity and that "therefore" Judaism can turn Daoism into a pick-and-choose buffet.
But they're All Wrong about Daoism.
[quote name='Husky' date='02 January 2013 - 06:16 PM' timestamp='1357130294' post='116378']
1. Daoism most definitely has Gods (who are very much real) in the Hindu, Hellenistic and other such heathen sense. (Note that Hellenismos can be held up as the "western" definition for "real deity".)
The Daoist Gods are not merely real they are also central in Daoism.
Also, if "Hinduism is idolatry", as in the above article, then Daoism is JUST AS MUCH idolatry.
Traditional Daoists, not being cowards, insist they have very real Gods. They insist they have x numbers of Gods and x numbers of Goddesses (e.g. I think some 9 Divine Emperors, and over 80,000 Longs=Chinese Dragons of which 5 or so are the main ones). And just as important to Daoists as acknowledging the existence of their Gods, these loyal insubvertible heathens find it paramount to worship their Gods. Correctly. They are VERY pedantic about the correct worship (the correct times, the correct arrangement of all the moortis of the Gods with respect to each others' positions, the correct vahanas, dhootas and dvarapalakas for each, the correct body-position of each God including "mudras", the correct "mantras" and "stotras" pertaining to each God, the correct "yantras" for each God and "tantra"/ritual practices to be performed with these, and the correct arrangement of various Gods in the "yantras" in the form of "mandalas". [Many Gods are manifest in forms of beings, while what seems to me to be no more than a few Daoist Gods are merely symbolised (special sacred symbols). The Chinese written akSharas are themselves sacred so the written 'secret' names of these Gods are doubly sacred.]
* I am using Hindoo terms for what are not Hindoo but Daoist matters in the above ONLY because 1. there are no (respectable) English words that even approach the meaning and 2. because Hindoo words are what a Hindoo audience can easily understand.
Even the traditional Daoists that do not worship Hindoo Gods speak respectfully of the Hindoo Gods and Goddesses, knowing them by name and depiction and with a willingness to understand their divine nature. Even those traditional Daoists that know to make a clear distinction between where their religion ends and Hindoo religion begins (or vice-versa) speak of Hindus' religion as a very ancient religion (too). (They actually sounded like they are pre-empting any thought of encroachment on Hindu religion from their end. <img src='http://www.india-forum.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='
' /> )
Traditional Daoists (consciously) identify their religion - in terms of being able to *relate* - with Hindu religion among the various religions in the world, and far more than they ever would with Judaism which bears not even a passing resemblance to Daoism. Traditional Daoists never say they are monotheists (because they insist they know many Gods). Further, there's something quite like what Hindoos call Advaitam in Daoism (it has ever been a part of Daoism, and its intrinsic presence in Daoism is utterly independent of Hindu and all Indian religion and influence <- Indian would-be encroachers are thereby pre-emptively told to stay away). This monism of Daoism is intrinsically related to the Daoist Gods - i.e. both being inseparable elements of the same religion (actually dvaitam in Daoism seems to be inseparable from Daoism's advaitam too).
To summarise, in the paragraphs above I just gave some of the descriptions that underline how [color="#0000FF"]Daoism is a/the textbook case of heathenism, consciously recognises itself as a heathenism, and is able to recognise - and hence 'identify' (comraderie in) - other heathenisms that are "like" it in some important ways in the heathen sense (in particular, Daoists choose to make such 'identifications' with Asian heathenisms such as Hindus' religion).[/color]
Daoism is a very private religion: the Daoist heathens are VERY protective of their religion (for many reasons, including some paramount ones). Which is why non-heathens do not know it and continue to be so ignorant of it (which can only be good news). Heathens, however, upon learning about some of the basics of Daoism, will not fail to recognise direct kinship. A kinship far more potent - and more trustworthy - than any mere genetic relationship. No it's not the same religion and not the same Gods - but Daoists (etc) are so "like" Hindoos: they think about/go about their heathenism in a manner Hindoos can relate to, which is: relatable to the way Hindoos think about/go about their own heathenism. (You know what I mean.) But both of which is utterly different from non-heathenisms <- which last are in turn completely alien to what comes natural to heathen comprehension.
2. I wanted to elaborate on this next in the Buddhism thread, but in case I forget to -
Traditional Daoists - and more importantly their Gods, which is where the Daoists get this stipulation from - do NOT approve of mixing-and-matching using their religion. To be more explicit, [color="#0000FF"]as traditional Daoists explain, Daoism [color="#0000FF"]disallows[/color] applying their Ritual Practices in the context of other religions and other Gods. That is, Daoist Rituals are NOT to be applied when practising Buddhism or in the worship of Buddhist or Bauddhified characters, etc. Traditional Daoists (you know, the kind that sees/directly interacts with their Gods) state categorically that Daoist ritual practices are only for Daoist ends, and Daoist ritual practices for worship are only to be applied to Daoist Gods (and not to Buddhist characters). What to say of Judaism etc.[/color]
(Some Daoists have enabled interested lay Chinese Buddhists to continue worshipping the latter's ancestral Daoist Gods and have, to this end, intimated some Daoist rituals pertaining to/belonging with these Gods to their countrymen. But besides the above stipulations - such as ensuring a pooja area for the Daoist Gods that is entirely separate from the worship area of Buddhist characters, and the ban on transferral of rituals, mantras and stotras from Daoism to Buddhism, and the ban of Buddhist "mantras and rituals" from being applied to Daoist Gods - Daoists can even be seen further insisting that these lay Buddhists should leave some time between the worship of Buddhist characters and the worship of Daoist Gods. This is all actually the insistence of the Daoist Gods and hence Daoist religion. As a mere but very useful side-effect, such stipulations also prevent lay Buddhists from the grave error of mixing up the two utterly-unrelated religions, which thus also prevents that great crime of opportunistic and conscious Bauddhification of=inculturation on Daoism by non-lay Buddhists, as happened in the past.)
Also:
As traditional Daoists explain it - and who else should be allowed to explain it - Daoism sounds very much like an ethnic religion to me.
- Traditional Daoists do NOT recognise alien "converts" let alone dabblers and new-ageists - for a very serious reason to do with what their religion allows. They don't recognise alien pretences at "expertise" either.
- Fraudsters/charlatans and even semi-trained=half-baked religion-salesmen do exist in Daoist society too in the modern era. These are ethnic Chinese of Daoist origins/ancestry who treacherously sell I mean "train" aliens in any Daoist practices they may know - but they are specifically avoided and not recognised by traditional Daoists, and are instead seriously considered as doing great harm (on a large scale).
- Traditional Daoists are known to be willing - again, for a reason* - to destroy their religion and its practices rather than let it fall into the hands of the aliens and all others unworthy.
Fortunately, the Daoist Gods have apparently built a defence-mechanism into the Daoist ritual practices/religion <img src='http://www.india-forum.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' /> Further, the Daoist Gods themselves are - as they needs must be* - the guardians of their religion: it seems they also *actively* help protect the religion from dabblers, who are apparently led around the more they would dabble <img src='http://www.india-forum.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='
' />
* It's because Daoism is a VERY powerful religion <- in the sense that I imagine Hindoos might use that word in such a context (I'm being deliberately vague in wording, read between the lines).
Anyway, it's a common theme among aliens to try and take the theism out of heathenisms prior to ingesting 'acceptable' parts of that heathenism for their own purposes and ideologies. (I'm just surprised any Jews would be into doing such things though.)[/quote]
But they're All Wrong about Daoism.
[quote name='Husky' date='02 January 2013 - 06:16 PM' timestamp='1357130294' post='116378']
1. Daoism most definitely has Gods (who are very much real) in the Hindu, Hellenistic and other such heathen sense. (Note that Hellenismos can be held up as the "western" definition for "real deity".)
The Daoist Gods are not merely real they are also central in Daoism.
Also, if "Hinduism is idolatry", as in the above article, then Daoism is JUST AS MUCH idolatry.
Traditional Daoists, not being cowards, insist they have very real Gods. They insist they have x numbers of Gods and x numbers of Goddesses (e.g. I think some 9 Divine Emperors, and over 80,000 Longs=Chinese Dragons of which 5 or so are the main ones). And just as important to Daoists as acknowledging the existence of their Gods, these loyal insubvertible heathens find it paramount to worship their Gods. Correctly. They are VERY pedantic about the correct worship (the correct times, the correct arrangement of all the moortis of the Gods with respect to each others' positions, the correct vahanas, dhootas and dvarapalakas for each, the correct body-position of each God including "mudras", the correct "mantras" and "stotras" pertaining to each God, the correct "yantras" for each God and "tantra"/ritual practices to be performed with these, and the correct arrangement of various Gods in the "yantras" in the form of "mandalas". [Many Gods are manifest in forms of beings, while what seems to me to be no more than a few Daoist Gods are merely symbolised (special sacred symbols). The Chinese written akSharas are themselves sacred so the written 'secret' names of these Gods are doubly sacred.]
* I am using Hindoo terms for what are not Hindoo but Daoist matters in the above ONLY because 1. there are no (respectable) English words that even approach the meaning and 2. because Hindoo words are what a Hindoo audience can easily understand.
Even the traditional Daoists that do not worship Hindoo Gods speak respectfully of the Hindoo Gods and Goddesses, knowing them by name and depiction and with a willingness to understand their divine nature. Even those traditional Daoists that know to make a clear distinction between where their religion ends and Hindoo religion begins (or vice-versa) speak of Hindus' religion as a very ancient religion (too). (They actually sounded like they are pre-empting any thought of encroachment on Hindu religion from their end. <img src='http://www.india-forum.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='
' /> )Traditional Daoists (consciously) identify their religion - in terms of being able to *relate* - with Hindu religion among the various religions in the world, and far more than they ever would with Judaism which bears not even a passing resemblance to Daoism. Traditional Daoists never say they are monotheists (because they insist they know many Gods). Further, there's something quite like what Hindoos call Advaitam in Daoism (it has ever been a part of Daoism, and its intrinsic presence in Daoism is utterly independent of Hindu and all Indian religion and influence <- Indian would-be encroachers are thereby pre-emptively told to stay away). This monism of Daoism is intrinsically related to the Daoist Gods - i.e. both being inseparable elements of the same religion (actually dvaitam in Daoism seems to be inseparable from Daoism's advaitam too).
To summarise, in the paragraphs above I just gave some of the descriptions that underline how [color="#0000FF"]Daoism is a/the textbook case of heathenism, consciously recognises itself as a heathenism, and is able to recognise - and hence 'identify' (comraderie in) - other heathenisms that are "like" it in some important ways in the heathen sense (in particular, Daoists choose to make such 'identifications' with Asian heathenisms such as Hindus' religion).[/color]
Daoism is a very private religion: the Daoist heathens are VERY protective of their religion (for many reasons, including some paramount ones). Which is why non-heathens do not know it and continue to be so ignorant of it (which can only be good news). Heathens, however, upon learning about some of the basics of Daoism, will not fail to recognise direct kinship. A kinship far more potent - and more trustworthy - than any mere genetic relationship. No it's not the same religion and not the same Gods - but Daoists (etc) are so "like" Hindoos: they think about/go about their heathenism in a manner Hindoos can relate to, which is: relatable to the way Hindoos think about/go about their own heathenism. (You know what I mean.) But both of which is utterly different from non-heathenisms <- which last are in turn completely alien to what comes natural to heathen comprehension.
2. I wanted to elaborate on this next in the Buddhism thread, but in case I forget to -
Traditional Daoists - and more importantly their Gods, which is where the Daoists get this stipulation from - do NOT approve of mixing-and-matching using their religion. To be more explicit, [color="#0000FF"]as traditional Daoists explain, Daoism [color="#0000FF"]disallows[/color] applying their Ritual Practices in the context of other religions and other Gods. That is, Daoist Rituals are NOT to be applied when practising Buddhism or in the worship of Buddhist or Bauddhified characters, etc. Traditional Daoists (you know, the kind that sees/directly interacts with their Gods) state categorically that Daoist ritual practices are only for Daoist ends, and Daoist ritual practices for worship are only to be applied to Daoist Gods (and not to Buddhist characters). What to say of Judaism etc.[/color]
(Some Daoists have enabled interested lay Chinese Buddhists to continue worshipping the latter's ancestral Daoist Gods and have, to this end, intimated some Daoist rituals pertaining to/belonging with these Gods to their countrymen. But besides the above stipulations - such as ensuring a pooja area for the Daoist Gods that is entirely separate from the worship area of Buddhist characters, and the ban on transferral of rituals, mantras and stotras from Daoism to Buddhism, and the ban of Buddhist "mantras and rituals" from being applied to Daoist Gods - Daoists can even be seen further insisting that these lay Buddhists should leave some time between the worship of Buddhist characters and the worship of Daoist Gods. This is all actually the insistence of the Daoist Gods and hence Daoist religion. As a mere but very useful side-effect, such stipulations also prevent lay Buddhists from the grave error of mixing up the two utterly-unrelated religions, which thus also prevents that great crime of opportunistic and conscious Bauddhification of=inculturation on Daoism by non-lay Buddhists, as happened in the past.)
Also:
As traditional Daoists explain it - and who else should be allowed to explain it - Daoism sounds very much like an ethnic religion to me.
- Traditional Daoists do NOT recognise alien "converts" let alone dabblers and new-ageists - for a very serious reason to do with what their religion allows. They don't recognise alien pretences at "expertise" either.
- Fraudsters/charlatans and even semi-trained=half-baked religion-salesmen do exist in Daoist society too in the modern era. These are ethnic Chinese of Daoist origins/ancestry who treacherously sell I mean "train" aliens in any Daoist practices they may know - but they are specifically avoided and not recognised by traditional Daoists, and are instead seriously considered as doing great harm (on a large scale).
- Traditional Daoists are known to be willing - again, for a reason* - to destroy their religion and its practices rather than let it fall into the hands of the aliens and all others unworthy.
Fortunately, the Daoist Gods have apparently built a defence-mechanism into the Daoist ritual practices/religion <img src='http://www.india-forum.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='
' /> Further, the Daoist Gods themselves are - as they needs must be* - the guardians of their religion: it seems they also *actively* help protect the religion from dabblers, who are apparently led around the more they would dabble <img src='http://www.india-forum.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' />* It's because Daoism is a VERY powerful religion <- in the sense that I imagine Hindoos might use that word in such a context (I'm being deliberately vague in wording, read between the lines).
Anyway, it's a common theme among aliens to try and take the theism out of heathenisms prior to ingesting 'acceptable' parts of that heathenism for their own purposes and ideologies. (I'm just surprised any Jews would be into doing such things though.)[/quote]