Post 8/?
Mahabharatam ~ Harivamsha
(MBh is actually the oldest and hence only relevant "source" for kRiShNa's context. Harivamsha being an "appendix" to the MBh, I decided to search in there too.)
[color="#0000FF"]1. Mahabharatam.[/color]
Repeat from much earlier:
I also searched for nirgrant(h)a in the English translation. No hits either.
* But important note: the word shramaNa has a general meaning in Vedic Skt (its original meaning), as already brought up in post 167 on the topic "ur-Shramanism" earlier in this thread. Back then, when searching in the transliterated *Skt* text of the MBh instead of its English translation, the word "shramaNa" occurred only in that original general Skt meaning, the same sense in which the word occurs in the Ramayanam too. So, also confirmed in Ganguly's MBh translation, there is certainly no remote indication of the use of the word "shramaNa" in the text having anything to do with Jainism/Buddhism/any other "Shramanism" - capital S. (Let alone the newly-concocted backward-projected ur-Shramanism.) So interested parties can't *make* it refer to them in any way, regardless of how desperate they may be.
**Note: Ajeevikas are an extinct type of Shramana - capital S - distinct from Jains and Buddhists. IIRC it was generally claimed - at least, when I last checked - that they started/existed chronologically before Jains and Buddhists. But even if Ajeevikas had been mentioned in the MBh, it is naturally no evidence for Jainism.]
Next to "shramaNa" (see note above), searched the available Skt full-text (transliterated) of the MBh for:
+ neminatha: no occurrence
+ tIrtha~Nkara: no occurrence
+ jaina: no occurrence of the relevant word. (Occurs as a mere substring of larger Skt words with distinct meanings, or as part of verb forms of visR^ijati and utsR^ijati (sp?) and the like joined with succeeding words. Searching for jina was not meaningful [while jIna bears little or no relation, apparently]: -jina- occurs as mere substring of actual Skt words all over the place. Plus apparently "jina" as a proper word in its own right also happens to be a reference to Vishnu, since its basic/literal meaning is listed as "victorious". But there was no need to look through all occurrences of the (sub)string anyway, as the search results from Ganguly's English translation of the MBh didn't show up a ref to Jaina or Jina anywhere.)
+ ajIvika: no occurrence of the relevant word (the substring occurred, but again as part of larger words that have distinct meanings in Skt.)
+ nirgrantha: no occurrence
[color="#0000FF"]2. MBh's "appendix", the Harivamsha[/color]
Searched an online version of (the original, hence implicitly Hindu) Harivamsha, itrans-transliterated version. Various recensions appear to be included, so it seemed like a ~relatively thorough place to perform the necessary searches.
First of all,
+ No results for case insensitive searches on: jain*, jina, shramaNa (even zramana), nirgrantha (I don't think nigantha - without the r - is Skt. It seems Prakrit, so I may have not have searched for it in the HV), also searched teerthan/~N/kara and tIrthan/~Nkara, neminAtha.
Note once more: even if shramaNa had occurred, it need not remotely imply Jainism, since it could be a reference once more to the word's original, plain Skt meaning.
And turns out, even if the word nirgrantha *had* occurred, it too has a more general Skt meaning apparently - being a Skt word and all - (and apparently has been used by Hindus in some Hindu texts in that plain meaning) and thus need not necessarily imply Jainism/Buddhism:
Next,
[color="#0000FF"]All[/color] the Harivamsha shlokas that mention an [color="#0000FF"]ariShTanemi[/color] are covered in this post and the next (the next post being the relevant one):
+ HV Bhavishyaparva, where both 3.36.43 and 3.70.28 speak of the Vedic ariShTanemi who, along with his brothers the famous Vedic tArkShya, *Da* GaruDa, AruNi and AruNa, are the sons of Vinata. Clearly not the same as the family tree of the Jain Neminatha.
+ HV (Harivamsha-parva) 1.3.29-1.3.30 speaks of how the Vedic Rishi ariShTanemi prajApati married 4 of (Vedic God) Daksha's many many daughters. (DakSha gave some of his other daughters to further Vedic Rishis of founding lineages like Bhrigu, Angirasa and Kashyapa. And another 27 of Daksha's daughters - the constellations - were given to Vedic God Chandra.) Clearly this ariShTanemi can't be confused with Jainism's Neminatha who never married, forget having multiple wives.
+ HV 1.15.2-1.15.3: mentions the daughter of one ariShTanemi. Once more: can't mistake this one with Jainism's Neminatha who never married and remained celibate, I understand, and so didn't have children.
[color="#0000FF"]+ But it is HV chapters 1.34 and 1.38 that are relevant to the topic.[/color]
continued in the next post
[color="#FF0000"](Post edited to add search result summary of searching itrans of the *Skt* text of MBh.)[/color]
Mahabharatam ~ Harivamsha
(MBh is actually the oldest and hence only relevant "source" for kRiShNa's context. Harivamsha being an "appendix" to the MBh, I decided to search in there too.)
[color="#0000FF"]1. Mahabharatam.[/color]
Repeat from much earlier:
Quote:I did a brief search over that English translation of Mahabharata by Ganguly, for occurrences of:
- sramana/shramana *
- ajeevika/ajivika **
- jain/jaina/jina
- tirt(h)ankar(a)/teert(h)ankar(a)
- tirt(h)amkar(a)/teert(h)amkar(a)
- neminat(h)(a)
None of the above turned up.
[...]
Several mentions of the name Aris(h)t(h)anemi do occur in the MBh, BUT none of these are referred to as the cousin of Sri Krishna (and no mention at all of Jainas, see above).
- One occurrence of it is the name that Sahadeva gives when in disguise.
- In a section specifically on *Brahmanas* (i.e. a type of Hindus): another is described as the brahmana son of Kashyapa/muni Tarkshya and specifically addressed as a Brahmana (Vedic Hindu Rishis are Brahmanas. Vaidika automatically implies not a Jaina either. And Rishis are certainly NOT Jainas no matter who stands on their head with the wish to make it so.)
- In another instance too, "Arishtanemi" is addressed as a Brahmana, related to Tarkhshya.
- Arishtanemi, as the progeny of Vinata along with Tark(s?)hya, Garuda and others, appears again when the descendants of various Suras and Asuras are being listed.
- And again, here an Arishtanemi is listed along with Tarkshya and Garuda etc.
I also searched for nirgrant(h)a in the English translation. No hits either.
* But important note: the word shramaNa has a general meaning in Vedic Skt (its original meaning), as already brought up in post 167 on the topic "ur-Shramanism" earlier in this thread. Back then, when searching in the transliterated *Skt* text of the MBh instead of its English translation, the word "shramaNa" occurred only in that original general Skt meaning, the same sense in which the word occurs in the Ramayanam too. So, also confirmed in Ganguly's MBh translation, there is certainly no remote indication of the use of the word "shramaNa" in the text having anything to do with Jainism/Buddhism/any other "Shramanism" - capital S. (Let alone the newly-concocted backward-projected ur-Shramanism.) So interested parties can't *make* it refer to them in any way, regardless of how desperate they may be.
**Note: Ajeevikas are an extinct type of Shramana - capital S - distinct from Jains and Buddhists. IIRC it was generally claimed - at least, when I last checked - that they started/existed chronologically before Jains and Buddhists. But even if Ajeevikas had been mentioned in the MBh, it is naturally no evidence for Jainism.]
Next to "shramaNa" (see note above), searched the available Skt full-text (transliterated) of the MBh for:
+ neminatha: no occurrence
+ tIrtha~Nkara: no occurrence
+ jaina: no occurrence of the relevant word. (Occurs as a mere substring of larger Skt words with distinct meanings, or as part of verb forms of visR^ijati and utsR^ijati (sp?) and the like joined with succeeding words. Searching for jina was not meaningful [while jIna bears little or no relation, apparently]: -jina- occurs as mere substring of actual Skt words all over the place. Plus apparently "jina" as a proper word in its own right also happens to be a reference to Vishnu, since its basic/literal meaning is listed as "victorious". But there was no need to look through all occurrences of the (sub)string anyway, as the search results from Ganguly's English translation of the MBh didn't show up a ref to Jaina or Jina anywhere.)
+ ajIvika: no occurrence of the relevant word (the substring occurred, but again as part of larger words that have distinct meanings in Skt.)
+ nirgrantha: no occurrence
[color="#0000FF"]2. MBh's "appendix", the Harivamsha[/color]
Searched an online version of (the original, hence implicitly Hindu) Harivamsha, itrans-transliterated version. Various recensions appear to be included, so it seemed like a ~relatively thorough place to perform the necessary searches.
First of all,
+ No results for case insensitive searches on: jain*, jina, shramaNa (even zramana), nirgrantha (I don't think nigantha - without the r - is Skt. It seems Prakrit, so I may have not have searched for it in the HV), also searched teerthan/~N/kara and tIrthan/~Nkara, neminAtha.
Note once more: even if shramaNa had occurred, it need not remotely imply Jainism, since it could be a reference once more to the word's original, plain Skt meaning.
And turns out, even if the word nirgrantha *had* occurred, it too has a more general Skt meaning apparently - being a Skt word and all - (and apparently has been used by Hindus in some Hindu texts in that plain meaning) and thus need not necessarily imply Jainism/Buddhism:
Quote:nirgrantha mfn. free from all ties or hindrances BhP. ; without possessions , poor L. ; a saint who has withdrawn from the world and lives either as a hermit or a religious mendicant wandering about naked Var. Buddh. ; a fool , idiot L. ; a gam. bler L. ; murder , manslaughter Gal. ; %{-thaka} mfn. unattended , deserted , alone L. ; fruitless L. ; clever , expert L. ; m. a naked Jaina or Buddhist mendicant L. ; n. (?) Jainism or Buddhism MW. ; %{-thana} n. killing , slaughter L. ; %{-tha-zAstra} n. N. of wk. ; %{-thi} mfn. free from knots , knotless L. ; without blemish , perfect (%{-thi-ramaNIyatA} , Can2d2ak.) ; %{-thika} mfn. clever , conversant L. ; = %{hIna} L. ; m. = %{-thaka} m.
Next,
[color="#0000FF"]All[/color] the Harivamsha shlokas that mention an [color="#0000FF"]ariShTanemi[/color] are covered in this post and the next (the next post being the relevant one):
+ HV Bhavishyaparva, where both 3.36.43 and 3.70.28 speak of the Vedic ariShTanemi who, along with his brothers the famous Vedic tArkShya, *Da* GaruDa, AruNi and AruNa, are the sons of Vinata. Clearly not the same as the family tree of the Jain Neminatha.
+ HV (Harivamsha-parva) 1.3.29-1.3.30 speaks of how the Vedic Rishi ariShTanemi prajApati married 4 of (Vedic God) Daksha's many many daughters. (DakSha gave some of his other daughters to further Vedic Rishis of founding lineages like Bhrigu, Angirasa and Kashyapa. And another 27 of Daksha's daughters - the constellations - were given to Vedic God Chandra.) Clearly this ariShTanemi can't be confused with Jainism's Neminatha who never married, forget having multiple wives.
+ HV 1.15.2-1.15.3: mentions the daughter of one ariShTanemi. Once more: can't mistake this one with Jainism's Neminatha who never married and remained celibate, I understand, and so didn't have children.
[color="#0000FF"]+ But it is HV chapters 1.34 and 1.38 that are relevant to the topic.[/color]
continued in the next post
[color="#FF0000"](Post edited to add search result summary of searching itrans of the *Skt* text of MBh.)[/color]