Unmasking AIT

[Husky]

Post 1/?



Not about AIT. But PIE. In particular things claimed for PIE mythology / as "originating" in PIE mythology. And hence leading to IE encroachment on others heathenisms. (Yet, with no actual evidence provided by PIE-ists. Only the word "potentially".)



In another thread, had mentioned the famous Shinto sacred narrative of Heavenly Sea Kami Susano-o-no-mikoto subduing the Orochi. I got confused: it was an 8-headed and 8-tailed snake not a dragon.





Wacky on Susanowo vs Orochi:

Mythology[edit]

Yamata no Orochi legends are originally recorded in two ancient texts about Japanese mythology and history. The ca. 680 AD Kojiki transcribes this dragon name as 八岐遠呂智 and ca. 720 AD Nihongi writes it as 八岐大蛇. In both versions of the Orochi myth, Susanoo or Susa-no-Ō is expelled from Heaven for tricking his sister Amaterasu the sun-goddess.



After expulsion from Heaven, Susanoo encounters two "Earthly Deities" (國神, kunitsukami) near the head of the Hi River (簸川), now called the Hii River (ja:斐伊川), in Izumo Province. They are weeping because they were forced to give the Orochi one of their daughters every year for seven years, and now they must sacrifice their eighth, Kushi-inada-hime (櫛名田比売 "comb/wondrous rice-field princess", who Susanoo transforms into a kushi 櫛 "comb" for safekeeping). The Kojiki tells the following version.

So, having been expelled, [His-Swift-impetuous-Male-Augustness] descended to a place [called] Tori-kami (鳥髪, now 鳥上) at the head-waters of the River Hi in the Land of Idzumo. At this time some chopsticks came floating down the stream. So His-Swift-Impetuous-Male-Augustness, thinking that there must be people at the head-waters of the river, went up it in quest of them, when he came upon an old man and an old woman, --two of them,--who had a young girl between them, and were weeping. Then he deigned to ask: "Who are ye?" So the old man replied, saying: "I am an Earthly Deity, child of the Deity Great-Mountain-Possessor. I am called by the name of Foot-Stroking-Elder, my wife is called by the name of Hand-Stroking Elder, and my daughter is called by the name of Wondrous-Inada-Princess." Again he asked: What is the cause of your crying?" [The old man answered] saying: "I had originally eight young girls as daughters. But the eight-forked serpent of Koshi has come every year and devoured [one], and it is now its time to come, wherefore we weep." Then he asked him: "What is its form like?" [The old man] answered, saying: "Its eyes are like akahagachi, it has one body with eight heads and eight tails. Moreover on its body grows moss, and also chamaecyparis and cryptomerias. Its length extends over eight valleys and eight hills, and if one look at its belly, it is all constantly bloody and inflamed." (What is called here akahagachi is the modern hohodzuki [winter-cherry]) Then His-Swift-Impetuous-Male-Augustness said to the old man: "If this be thy daughter, wilt thou offer her to me?" He replied, saying: "With reverence, but I know not thine august name." Then he replied, saying: "I am elder brother to the Heaven-Shining-Great-August-Deity. So I have now descended from Heaven." Then the Deities Foot-Stroker-Elder and Hand-Stroking-Elder said: "If that be so, with reverence will we offer [her to thee]." So His-Swift-Impetuous-Male-Augustness, at once taking and changing the young girl into a multitudinous and close-toothed comb which he stuck into his august hair-bunch, said to the Deities Foot-Stroking-Elder and Hand-Stroking-Elder: "Do you distill some eight-fold refined liquor. Also make a fence round about, in that fence make eight gates, at each gate tie [together] eight platforms, on each platform put a liquor-vat, and into each vat pour the eight-fold refined liquor, and wait." So as they waited after having thus prepared everything in accordance with his bidding, the eight-forked serpent came truly as [the old man] had said, and immediately dipped a head into each vat, and drank the liquor. Thereupon it was intoxicated with drinking, and all [the heads] lay down and slept. Then His-Swift-Impetuous-Male-Augustness drew the ten-grasp sabre, that was augustly girded on him, and cut the serpent in pieces, so that the River Hi flowed on changed into a river of blood. So when he cut the middle tail, the edge of his august sword broke. Then, thinking it strange, he thrust into and split [the flesh] with the point of his august sword and looked, and there was a great sword [within]. So he took this great sword, and, thinking it a strange thing, he respectfully informed the Heaven-Shining-Great-August-Deity. This is the Herb-Quelling Great Sword. (tr. Chamberlain 1919:71-3)

Compare the Nihongi description of the Yamata no Orochi (tr. Aston 1896:1:52-53).

"It had an eight-forked head and an eight-forked tail; its eyes were red, like the winter-cherry; and on its back firs and cypresses were growing. As it crawled it extended over a space of eight hills and eight valleys." These botanical names used to describe this Orochi are akahagachi or hoozuki ("winter cherry or Japanese lantern, Physalis alkekengi"), hikage ("club moss, Lycopodiopsida), hinoki ("Japanese cypress, Chamaecyparis obtusa), and sugi ("Japanese cedar, Cryptomeria").

This legendary sword Kusanagi-no-Tsurugi, along with the Yata no Kagami mirror and Yasakani no Magatama jewel or orb, are the three sacred Imperial Regalia of Japan.

The above is just part of Susano-o's narrative, he goes on to more after that. Still, so far so good, but to make it clear: each of the 8 heads entered by a different gate out of the 8 gates, where each head was trapped by Susano-o for easy dispatching (and which the head didn't notice because it was intoxicated from the ricewine/sake).



As indicated above, it was the divine sword that he found in Orochi - which he gave to his sister Goddess Amaterasu to make amends and which eventually passed down to Japan's emperors - that became the Japanese treasure, not (as I had misremembered) Susano-o's own sacred sword.



The reason for this set of posts is in the following:

Etymology[edit]

[color="#0000FF"]The Japanese name orochi 大蛇 derives from Old Japanese woröti (with a regular o- from wo- shift, Miller 1971:25-7), but its etymology is enigmatic. Besides this ancient orochi reading, the kanji 大蛇 are commonly pronounced daija "big snake; large serpent".



Carr (1990:169) notes that Japanese scholars have proposed "more than a dozen" orochi < woröti etymologies, while Western linguists have suggested loanwords from Austronesian, Tungusic, and Indo-European languages. The most feasible native etymological proposals are Japanese o- from o 尾 "tail" (which is where Susanoo discovered the sacred sword), ō 大 "big; great", or oro 峰 "peak; summit"; and -chi meaning "god; spirit", cognate with the mizuchi river-dragon. Benedict (1985:167) originally proposed woröti "large snake" was suffixed from Proto-Austro-Japanese *(w)oröt-i acquired from Austronesian *[q]uḷəj "snake; worm"; which he later (1990:243) modified to *(u-)orot-i from *[q,ʔ]oḷəj. Miller (1987:647) criticized Benedict for overlooking Old Japanese "worö 'tail' + suffix -ti — as well as an obvious Tungus etymology, [Proto-Tungus] *xürgü-či 'the tailed one'", and notes "this apparently well-traveled orochi has now turned up in the[/color] speculation of the [Indo-European] folklorists (Littleton 1981)." Littleton's hypothesis involves the 3-headed monster Trisiras or Viśvarūpa, which has a mythological parallel because Indra killed it after giving it soma, wine, and food, but lacks a phonological connection.



Polycephalic or multi-headed animals are rare in biology but common in mythology and heraldry. Multi-headed dragons, like the 8-headed Orochi and 3-headed Trisiras above, are a common motif in comparative mythology. For instance, multi-headed dragons in Greek mythology include the wind-god Typhon who had several polycephalic offspring, including the 9-headed Lernaean Hydra and the 100-headed Ladon, both slain by Hercules.



Two other Japanese examples derive from Buddhist importations of Indian [color="#800080"](code for Hindu**)[/color] dragon myths. Benzaiten, the Japanese name of Saraswati, supposedly killed a 5-headed dragon at Enoshima in 552 AD. Kuzuryū 九頭龍 "9-headed dragon", deriving from the Nagaraja snake-kings Vasuki and Shesha, is worshipped at Togakushi Shrine in Nagano Prefecture. (Compare the Jiutouniao 九頭鳥 "nine-headed bird" in Chinese mythology.)

[color="#800080"](** Although I'm not sure Hindus have "dragons". Hindus have serpents, cosmic serpents perhaps, mysterious ocean serpents too, but no dragons as far as I know. Don't really know "what" - as in, what type of animal other than fantastical - Yazhis are.)[/color]



Comparing folklore about polycephalic dragons and serpents, 8-headed creatures are less common than 7- or 9-headed ones. Among Japanese numerals, ya or hachi 八 can mean "many; varied" (e.g., yaoya 八百屋 [lit. "800 store"] "greengrocer; jack-of-all-trades"). De Visser (1913:150) says the number 8 is "stereotypical" in legends about kings or gods riding dragons or having their carriages drawn by them. Smith (1919:212), who quotes the orochi myth with "seven or eight heads" and compares a Celtic dragon, says, "The seven-headed dragon is found also in the Scottish dragon-myth, and the legends of Cambodia, India, Persia, Western Asia, East Africa, and the Mediterranean area." Smith (1919:215) identifies the mythic 7- or 8-headed dragons with the 7-spiked Pteria spider shell or 8-tentacled octopus.



The myth of a Storm God fighting a Sea Serpent is itself a popular mythic trope potentially originating with the Proto-Indo-European religion[3] and later transmitted into the religions of the Ancient Near East most likely initially through interaction with Hittite speaking peoples into Syria and the Fertile Crescent.[4] This motif, known as chaoskampf (German for "struggle against chaos") represents the clash between order and chaos. Often as these myths evolve from their original source, the role of the storm god (himself often the head of a pantheon) is adopted by culture heroes or a personage symbolizing royalty. A non-exclusive list of mythological parallels to the story of Susanoo vs. Orochi include:



Indo-European



•Thor vs. Jörmungandr (Norse)

•Tarhunt vs. Illuyanka (Hittite)

•Zeus vs. Typhon (Greek)

â—¦Hercules vs. The Lernaean Hydra (Greek)

•Indra vs. Vritra ([color="#FF0000"]Vedic[/color])

◦Krishna vs. Kāliyā ([color="#FF0000"]Indian[/color])

[color="#800080"](Note interesting distinction. Vedic is not used as a religion here, else why Indian not Hindu used thereafter? Whereas Zoroastrian is used for the next example below, which is a religion. And if Vedic is an ethnicity here - odd - why is it magically distinct from Indian? And if Vedic used as culture, Krishna vs Kaaliya is still exclusively Hindu and not general "Indian" whatever that is supposed to be. Still, since when are the two distinct? A: since aliens decided the Vedas are theirs and that Indians are miscegeneated with a miscegenated distinct religion called Hinduism.)[/color]

•Θraētaona vs. Aži Dahāka (Zorastrian)

â—¦Garshasp vs. Zahhak (Iranian)

•Dobrynya Nikitich vs. Zmey Gorynych (Slavic)

â—¦Saint George vs. The Dragon (Christian)

•Făt-Frumos vs. Balaur (Romanian)



Afro-Asiatic



•Baʿal vs. Yam (Canaanite)

•Yu the Great vs. Xiang Liu of Gong Gong (Chinese)

•Marduk vs. Tiamat (Babylonian)

•Atum vs. Nehebkau (Egyptian)

â—¦Ra vs. Apep (Egyptian)

•Yahweh vs. Leviathan (Jewish)

â—¦Gabriel vs. Rahab (Jewish)

â– Christ vs. Satan (Christian)

In many of these examples, the serpent god is often seen as multi-headed or multi-tailed.

Since multiple heads/tails aren't necessary to the pattern claimed for IE and since they're conflating dragon with serpent - thus allowing both kinds of creatures - I note they left several other famous Chinese cases that are in some ways more similar to Orochi's case - and of course have left out traditional African narratives (including one about a hero that I familiar was with from an African tales anthology). Also left out is the famous instance of Apollo vs the Python at Delphi and Apollo thereafter making it his own sacred seat/dwelling.



[And concerning the Babylonian case of Tiamat, though, even the wacky page for Tiamat admits the following, which implies attempt to force it into the pattern:

"Though Tiamat is often described by modern authors as a sea serpent or dragon, no ancient texts exist in which there is a clear association with those kinds of creatures, and the identification is debated.[9]"

]



The problem:

- How PIE-ists claim - via words like "potentially" - that the motif "must" be PIE originally and hence borrowed by others (non-IE populations) from them. Ref the statement: "The myth of a Storm God fighting a Sea Serpent is itself a popular mythic trope potentially originating with the Proto-Indo-European religion[3] and later transmitted into the religions of the Ancient Near East"



The whole pretence that such things "must" be IE - when it is common to a lot of people throughout the world, the examples will follow - is the usual PIE arrogance coupled with the usual ignorance of PIE-ists in not bothering to check various independent non-IE traditions first in order to see if these have something similar or if a larger pattern emerges that undermines the limited selection of features conveniently identified as forming the trope for consideration.



They've even named it. "Chaoskampf". There's the implication that its origins are more in a sort of kosmic struggle (order vs chaos in religio is generally cosmic) - and certainly, Indra wasn't fighting some garden snake: Vritra was supposed to hogging the Cosmic Waters and causing drought that way.



[Moreover, they admit they can't even force a phonological connection to Indra vs [IIRC TvaShtaa's son?] Trishiras in Susano-o's case. The Sake and Soma are - on surface - good excuses for PIE-ists to fasten thesmelves on, but what about other "motifs" - as in, elements common to similar serpent/dragon related narratives elsewhere - that don't appear to feature in PIE's limited set of defining features for this trope which yet occur in Susano-o's exploit against Orochi?]



Miller's use of "speculation" is appropriate, in this statement again from above:

Miller (1987:647) criticized Benedict for overlooking Old Japanese "worö 'tail' + suffix -ti [/b]— as well as an obvious Tungus etymology, [Proto-Tungus] *xürgü-či 'the tailed one'", and notes "this apparently well-traveled orochi has now turned up in the[/color] [color=red]speculation [color=blue][b]of the [Indo-European] folklorists (Littleton 1981)."

Why don't PIE-ists get PROOF of transmission first, before jumping to the conclusion that the Shinto narrative about Susanoo must be derived (or inspired)? If insinuating derivation, there are other cases that have far more similarities that can be considered as a better model for the original.



Following posts will go over

- more concerning Susano'o including the rest of the narrative

- cases from other countries

- snakes, dragons in environmental water control

- the elements of similarity in Susanoo vs Orochi to cases outside of the PIE trope that are being ignored in order to forcefit the Shinto instance as a PIE-derivative (from where the PIEists make the claim)