Post 2/2
Still to do with BV's post from a couple of posts above.
Did Rajiv Sreenivasan not invoke Lokesh Chandra in that article where Rajeev donated the Hindoo God Ayyappa to Buddhism on the flimsiest grounds? That was a turn off. As I recall, LC was cited there for his statements on Tibetan Buddhism.
I'm *quite* disinterested in Indian authors writing about Buddhism in Tibet and Mongolia. Because (1) both Tibet and Mongolia are the famous cases of ruthless and total Buddhist replacement of native religion (aka what is considered a Buddhist success story); and (2) Indian authors* are notorious for either skipping past this, skimming over it or else alluding to it briefly (sometimes along with apologetics) before proceeding to write their aggrandising narrative on the "wonderful" history of Buddhism there. So, pass.
* Actually western authors in love with Buddhism are the same.
See, perhaps it's not so offensive if a horrid religion had been replaced with a better one - though modern Buddhists do argue that Bon and Mongolian Shamanism were replaced by the "enlightened" religion of Buddhism. But I never saw why Bon was evil (despite the old Buddhist dawaganda on the subject) and I haven't heard much to indicate that Mongolian religion was so peculiarly vile either, plus there is little to argue that Buddhism itself is such a swell religion (let alone true) and it's not even an ethnic/ancestral religion, just an ideology. And for all Buddhism's hissing against the Bon and Mongolian Gods and desperate attempts to destroy adherence to Bon among the laity, I note that yet again Buddhism hyper-hypocritically stole Bon (and Mongolian!) Gods and rituals by the truckloads and even plagiarised the originally Bon Tibetan Book of the Dead, added the usual Buddhist flourishes to it and passed this off as yet another "original Buddhist work, everyone please applaud Buddhism for it".
There's already a linked article in the Buddhism thread somewhere where an Indian author very lightly alludes to the Buddhist total-replacement of Bon in Tibet - by persecution until near-extinction. And the title of this next journal article seems to imply it will cover the Mongolian case - though I haven't read this paper myself (and don't really need to, because I've already read other stuff about Buddhist persecution-replacement of Mongolian Shamanism):
jstor.org/discover/10.2307/40453015?uid=3738776&uid=2&uid=4&sid=21104791013507
A Mongolian Source to the Lamaist Suppression of Shamanism in the 17th Century (Concluded)
by Walter Heissig, Goettingen (spelled with umlaut) - 1953
- "Lamaism" = Tibetan Buddhism
- And the visible extract mentions "Yellow Sect of Lamaism" = the particular flavour of Tibetan Buddhism of the known Dalai Lamas
- The following statement is also visible in the preview:
Also, I still remember Elst's footnote alluding to how things went down in Tibet and Mongolia:
web.archive.org/web/20140201223925/http://koenraadelst.voiceofdharma.com/books/acat/ch2.htm
[koenraadelst.voiceofdharma.com/books/acat/ch2.htm is down or maybe gone]
One never hears of such things from Indian scholars.
On this interesting bit:
"Children of the dawn"? Or specifically, "children of the Dawn Goddess"? Is this a reference to the Japanese? But why that choice of appellation? If adding a dirgham variant* to the end of Surya's name would make it female and not a grammatical faux-pas - I wouldn't know - wouldn't it then be better to call them suryAputras instead? (Or even Suryaputras would make more sense, since Japan has many solar Kamis, a number of which are male. Plus it is the sun the Japanese claimed descent from.)
* CORRECTED: not mahapranam but dirgham, obviously. My brain's not good at multi-tasking. That or the neurons are going dodo.
Unless the choice of Usha in Ushaputras was made in order to refer to Amaterasu? But then, that wouldn't make sense either. Things to consider:
1. "Land of the Rising Sun" is a mistranslation, but even so the reference would still not be to the Dawn but to the Sun.
"Nihon/Nippon" does not mean "Land of the rising sun", but means "[the land/region that is] the origin/source/home of the sun". Its meaning derives from the Japanese view that the Sun's/Sun Goddess' home is in Japan [and not elsewhere *], not merely that the Sun rises in what seemed to this E Asian population to be the eastern-most country in their part of the world.
* Because Amaterasu Okami is considered the ancient ancestor of the Japanese - and also of their ruling dynasty. Of course, the many other Sun-worshipping heathens in the world also often think that their Solar Gods are their very own and have rulers of solar dynasties (Hindus, Koreans, S and Central Americans, Emperor Julian traced his spirit to his father the GrecoRoman Sun God, etc).
2. Amaterasu is
- literally, specifically the *Sun* Goddess. Translations of her name in English tend to render it as "Great Heaven Shining Deity" or "Heavenly Shining Great August Deity", pointing out once again that she is the Sun;
- often distinct from even Goddess Wakahirume, the Morning (rising) Sun Kami. More on Wakahirume: eos.kokugakuin.ac.jp/modules/xwords/entry.php?entryID=169
- in any case *not* the Dawn Goddess of the Shintos, who is Ame-no-Uzume. Ame-no-Uzume is that distinct Kami who coaxed Amaterasu Okami out of the cave where Amaterasu's brother Susanoo-no-Mikoto's actions had led her. (The other sibling of Amaterasu and Susanoo is the male Moon Kami of Shinto, Tsukiyomi-no-Mikoto.)
Further, their Parent Kami Izanagi produced the Sun Goddess from one eye, the Moon God from another, and Susanoo the God of Seas & Summer Storms from his nose.*
So Amaterasu can't be equated with a Vedic Goddess, for the simple reason that she is not Vedic. She is Shinto, Japanese.
But for identifications that are looser than the more demanding equals sign, Surya would be closer to Amaterasu than Usha - since it's a primary Sun deity under consideration, after all - except that the genders don't align. But that's a secondary consideration anyway, seen as how the actual narratives of Amaterasu already don't match with those of either Surya or Usha.
* Note that the Shinto narratives concerning all these and other prominent Kamis originally derive from oral traditions of the Shinto laity/masses, and are even originally regional narratives. That is, several Kami were once somewhat more localised Japanese Gods - ancestral Gods of everyday, non-aristocratic, local Shinto communities - than they are at present. Over time, these Kami became better known to all in the nation at large.
As an aside, some modern Japanese scholars had proposed that Amaterasu might perhaps have been an amalgamation of several Shinto male solar deities (both regional and ancient pan-Japanese ones), though other Japanese scholars have since shown that a key Amaterasu narrative - as a female Sun God whose brother causes her to temporarily hide in a cave (possibly signifying solar eclipse) - has also existed since ancient times in a smallish Chinese community in China. [This is not unexpected: there are close and ancient ties between E Asian and - to a significant extent - SE Asian countries. Including between "tribal" communities there.]
Further, there are other ancient Japanese Solar Kami, often male ones. Next to those Kami that have uniquely-Japanese narratives, there are again also those with narratives similar to or related to Gods in other Asian countries like China/Taiwan (which has several Solar deities including the divine archer narrative), Korea (Chumong, solar prince of IIRC founding Korean dynasty born from an egg fathered by the Korean Sun God and a Goddess mother), and several SE Asian countries. I haven't yet come across a single ancient Japanese Solar Kami with a narrative that matches an Indian case, and must say that Usha (though not exactly a *solar* deity herself) and Surya are quite far removed from the solar Kami, especially compared to the striking resemblances several of the Japanese solar deities (including Amaterasu) bear to other Asian native religions' solar Gods.
Here's an example to support some of the above. (From "Cambridge History of Japan: Early Kami Worship", Cambridge University Press, 2008
Regarding the bold bit: if Amaterasu is related to the Vedic Dawn Goddess Usha, then - logically speaking - the Solar deity of the Southern Chinese Miao people who have a narrative similar to Amaterasu must be related to Usha too, surely. Equally related/unrelated.
3. Amaterasu is not actually identical to any male Vedic God either. But the following is the best argument for any [historical, non-modernist] attempts to make Amaterasu - the Kami under that exact name - male.* However, for such a purpose, it is both too late (i.e. not original view) and it is not canonical (not from established Shinto texts) but merely later interpretation.
* Not counting modern and admitted conjecture, though those will then put Amaterasu even further away from the definitely-female Usha.
eos.kokugakuin.ac.jp/modules/xwords/entry.php?entryID=27
As per the above, only "some" scholars** interpreted her as male - and in the medieval period what's more. But what happened in such a later time becomes irrelevant, since earlier views existed and the Shinto narratives on Amaterasu (under that name and connected with the narratives/oral traditions of that named Kami) had already defined her as a female.
** It does not mention the religion of these scholars. Have to wonder: any Buddhist impetus, by any chance? Considering that Buddhism has done drastic rewrites of Others' Gods elsewhere in order to force-fit a superficially-Vedic format onto non-Vedic Asian religions to make Bauddhicisation of the population easier.
4. Again: Amaterasu is not a Goddess of dawn. This is also seen in how she is daily ritually worshipped in Shinto Shrines during both mornings and evenings (probably to do with sunrise and sunset, as these are notable bookends of the Sun's daily journey). Next to that, there are shrines to Amaterasu in the west of Japan that are specifically for worshipping the evening (~setting) Sun, which further distances her from anything that is peculiarly dawn-related.
E.g. visitshimane.com/?p=8307
And since even Goddess Wakahirume - who is the Morning Sun Kami - is still distinct from the dawn and the Dawn Kami, Wakahirume can't be introduced as "Usha" to Hindus either. The closest to Usha would be Ame-no-Uzume, the Dawn Kami. Though of course, her narratives again differ from that of the Hindu Amman uShA, the same way that the narratives of many other heathens' Dawn Goddesses differ. (Else these numerous other populations could be called Ushaputras too. Starting especially with Hindus, obviously.)
5. And this next is just for comparison's sake:
+ (Heathen) Koreans traced their history to at least 5000 years back. The Koreans apparently had a very ancient origin-legend for how their land was discovered by a (IIRC divine, solar-derived) hero in a more eastern region, and how it was thereafter populated by his people. Because this land lay even further east than where they were living before *, the legends have the hero referring to that early Korea as the "Land of the Morning Sun".
[* Not sure that the lands they dwelt in before Korea was China or even Mongolia, though I have heard genetics discussions mention that Koreans have Chinese origins. I do know that the very prolific and once prominent/aristocratic Korean "Han" family name does get traced to Shang dynasty origins in China. Confirmed in wackypedia.]
+ So neither the Korea="Land of the Morning Sun" nor Japan="Homeland/Source/Origin of the Sun" refer to the Dawn but to the *Sun*. And further, in Korea's case the legend literally referred to the country using "Morning Sun", yet its main native Sun deity was still not a Dawn deity but remains a (male) Sun God. In Japan's case, the country name's reference is not even to the Sun at some particular time of day - unlike with Korea - but just to the Sun in general (i.e. at all times). And Japan's most prominent Sun Kami is a female God besides, yet still not the Dawn. All in all, this makes the Korean version slightly closer to the Vedic situation of a Sun God than the Japanese case - and the legendary naming of Korea as Morning Sun makes it closer to the meaning of Dawn than Japan's "Source/Origin of the Sun" name - but the Korean Solar God is still not more Vedic. Though this Korean Sun God does drive a wagon/chariot; however, even in this there are sufficient differences - repeating post 111:
[quote name='Husky' date='10 January 2014 - 07:57 PM' timestamp='1389363598' post='116971']The PIE encroachment brigade can keep their paws off: unlike the Hindoo Soorya and his ratha of 7 ashvas or Hellenistic Helios with a chariot of 4 horses, the Korean Sun God has a chariot with 5 dragons harnessed to it :grins: (or was it a 5-headed dragon, drat, can't even remember that much). And to be even more different: [in Korean religion] the orb of the Sun goes about in its fixed movement everyday, but the [Korean] Sun God himself travels to earth in his ratha meanwhile.[/quote](IIRC he is said to come down to earth on his chariot every day, while the Sun - that he presides over - still moves in the heavens.)
Interesting is also that the main Chinese Sun God (the God of the solar orb itself **) is male but different yet again: his defining features - not to mention his backstory - are different from the Korean one and of course from Japan's Amaterasu Okami.
[** At times distinct from the divine archer God - husband of Chang'e - who lives on the Sun.]
+ The ancient Koreans also had entire ruling dynasties - such as that of Chumong - tracing descent from their solar deity, as Koreans were Sun-worshippers too.
But then, to repeat, a great many human populations in the world - including C/S American, Egyptian - have central solar deities and consequently also tend to have human dynasties tracing themselves to their Solar Deities. The Sun is a very important part of human life, so the recognition of the Sun as one or more paternal or maternal deities - as an ancestral deity of entire lineages and nations - is a very natural occurrence.
Still to do with BV's post from a couple of posts above.
Quote:More recently Prof. Lokesh Chandra has written extensively on interactions with NE Asia & Mongolia but his focus is on Bauddha transmissions.
Did Rajiv Sreenivasan not invoke Lokesh Chandra in that article where Rajeev donated the Hindoo God Ayyappa to Buddhism on the flimsiest grounds? That was a turn off. As I recall, LC was cited there for his statements on Tibetan Buddhism.
I'm *quite* disinterested in Indian authors writing about Buddhism in Tibet and Mongolia. Because (1) both Tibet and Mongolia are the famous cases of ruthless and total Buddhist replacement of native religion (aka what is considered a Buddhist success story); and (2) Indian authors* are notorious for either skipping past this, skimming over it or else alluding to it briefly (sometimes along with apologetics) before proceeding to write their aggrandising narrative on the "wonderful" history of Buddhism there. So, pass.
* Actually western authors in love with Buddhism are the same.
See, perhaps it's not so offensive if a horrid religion had been replaced with a better one - though modern Buddhists do argue that Bon and Mongolian Shamanism were replaced by the "enlightened" religion of Buddhism. But I never saw why Bon was evil (despite the old Buddhist dawaganda on the subject) and I haven't heard much to indicate that Mongolian religion was so peculiarly vile either, plus there is little to argue that Buddhism itself is such a swell religion (let alone true) and it's not even an ethnic/ancestral religion, just an ideology. And for all Buddhism's hissing against the Bon and Mongolian Gods and desperate attempts to destroy adherence to Bon among the laity, I note that yet again Buddhism hyper-hypocritically stole Bon (and Mongolian!) Gods and rituals by the truckloads and even plagiarised the originally Bon Tibetan Book of the Dead, added the usual Buddhist flourishes to it and passed this off as yet another "original Buddhist work, everyone please applaud Buddhism for it".
There's already a linked article in the Buddhism thread somewhere where an Indian author very lightly alludes to the Buddhist total-replacement of Bon in Tibet - by persecution until near-extinction. And the title of this next journal article seems to imply it will cover the Mongolian case - though I haven't read this paper myself (and don't really need to, because I've already read other stuff about Buddhist persecution-replacement of Mongolian Shamanism):
jstor.org/discover/10.2307/40453015?uid=3738776&uid=2&uid=4&sid=21104791013507
A Mongolian Source to the Lamaist Suppression of Shamanism in the 17th Century (Concluded)
by Walter Heissig, Goettingen (spelled with umlaut) - 1953
- "Lamaism" = Tibetan Buddhism
- And the visible extract mentions "Yellow Sect of Lamaism" = the particular flavour of Tibetan Buddhism of the known Dalai Lamas
- The following statement is also visible in the preview:
Quote:Certain undercurrents of a popular Chinese Taoist mysticism, known there [in Mongolia somewhere] under the name of Bon-po, [...]
Also, I still remember Elst's footnote alluding to how things went down in Tibet and Mongolia:
web.archive.org/web/20140201223925/http://koenraadelst.voiceofdharma.com/books/acat/ch2.htm
[koenraadelst.voiceofdharma.com/books/acat/ch2.htm is down or maybe gone]
Quote:Contrary to Mukhopadhyaya's confident assertion, there are a few attested cases of Buddhist-Jain conflict. The Mahâvamsa says that the Buddhist king Vattagamini (2917 B. C.) in Sri Lanka destroyed a Jain vihara. In the Shravana-Belgola epitaph of Mallishena, the Jain teacher Akalanka says that after a successful debate with Buddhists, he broke a Buddha statue with his own foot.10 The same (rare, but not non-existent) phenomenon of Buddhist fanaticism can be found outside India: the introduction of Buddhism in Tibet and Mongolia is associated with a "forceful suppression" of the native Shamanism.11
[...]
11Piers Vitebsky: De sjamaan, Kosmos, Utrecht 1996 (1995), p. 135.
One never hears of such things from Indian scholars.
On this interesting bit:
Quote:uShAputra-s
"Children of the dawn"? Or specifically, "children of the Dawn Goddess"? Is this a reference to the Japanese? But why that choice of appellation? If adding a dirgham variant* to the end of Surya's name would make it female and not a grammatical faux-pas - I wouldn't know - wouldn't it then be better to call them suryAputras instead? (Or even Suryaputras would make more sense, since Japan has many solar Kamis, a number of which are male. Plus it is the sun the Japanese claimed descent from.)
* CORRECTED: not mahapranam but dirgham, obviously. My brain's not good at multi-tasking. That or the neurons are going dodo.
Unless the choice of Usha in Ushaputras was made in order to refer to Amaterasu? But then, that wouldn't make sense either. Things to consider:
1. "Land of the Rising Sun" is a mistranslation, but even so the reference would still not be to the Dawn but to the Sun.
"Nihon/Nippon" does not mean "Land of the rising sun", but means "[the land/region that is] the origin/source/home of the sun". Its meaning derives from the Japanese view that the Sun's/Sun Goddess' home is in Japan [and not elsewhere *], not merely that the Sun rises in what seemed to this E Asian population to be the eastern-most country in their part of the world.
* Because Amaterasu Okami is considered the ancient ancestor of the Japanese - and also of their ruling dynasty. Of course, the many other Sun-worshipping heathens in the world also often think that their Solar Gods are their very own and have rulers of solar dynasties (Hindus, Koreans, S and Central Americans, Emperor Julian traced his spirit to his father the GrecoRoman Sun God, etc).
2. Amaterasu is
- literally, specifically the *Sun* Goddess. Translations of her name in English tend to render it as "Great Heaven Shining Deity" or "Heavenly Shining Great August Deity", pointing out once again that she is the Sun;
- often distinct from even Goddess Wakahirume, the Morning (rising) Sun Kami. More on Wakahirume: eos.kokugakuin.ac.jp/modules/xwords/entry.php?entryID=169
- in any case *not* the Dawn Goddess of the Shintos, who is Ame-no-Uzume. Ame-no-Uzume is that distinct Kami who coaxed Amaterasu Okami out of the cave where Amaterasu's brother Susanoo-no-Mikoto's actions had led her. (The other sibling of Amaterasu and Susanoo is the male Moon Kami of Shinto, Tsukiyomi-no-Mikoto.)
Further, their Parent Kami Izanagi produced the Sun Goddess from one eye, the Moon God from another, and Susanoo the God of Seas & Summer Storms from his nose.*
So Amaterasu can't be equated with a Vedic Goddess, for the simple reason that she is not Vedic. She is Shinto, Japanese.
But for identifications that are looser than the more demanding equals sign, Surya would be closer to Amaterasu than Usha - since it's a primary Sun deity under consideration, after all - except that the genders don't align. But that's a secondary consideration anyway, seen as how the actual narratives of Amaterasu already don't match with those of either Surya or Usha.
* Note that the Shinto narratives concerning all these and other prominent Kamis originally derive from oral traditions of the Shinto laity/masses, and are even originally regional narratives. That is, several Kami were once somewhat more localised Japanese Gods - ancestral Gods of everyday, non-aristocratic, local Shinto communities - than they are at present. Over time, these Kami became better known to all in the nation at large.
As an aside, some modern Japanese scholars had proposed that Amaterasu might perhaps have been an amalgamation of several Shinto male solar deities (both regional and ancient pan-Japanese ones), though other Japanese scholars have since shown that a key Amaterasu narrative - as a female Sun God whose brother causes her to temporarily hide in a cave (possibly signifying solar eclipse) - has also existed since ancient times in a smallish Chinese community in China. [This is not unexpected: there are close and ancient ties between E Asian and - to a significant extent - SE Asian countries. Including between "tribal" communities there.]
Further, there are other ancient Japanese Solar Kami, often male ones. Next to those Kami that have uniquely-Japanese narratives, there are again also those with narratives similar to or related to Gods in other Asian countries like China/Taiwan (which has several Solar deities including the divine archer narrative), Korea (Chumong, solar prince of IIRC founding Korean dynasty born from an egg fathered by the Korean Sun God and a Goddess mother), and several SE Asian countries. I haven't yet come across a single ancient Japanese Solar Kami with a narrative that matches an Indian case, and must say that Usha (though not exactly a *solar* deity herself) and Surya are quite far removed from the solar Kami, especially compared to the striking resemblances several of the Japanese solar deities (including Amaterasu) bear to other Asian native religions' solar Gods.
Here's an example to support some of the above. (From "Cambridge History of Japan: Early Kami Worship", Cambridge University Press, 2008
Quote:Although it is undoubtedly true that the myths were revised and structured during the sixth and seventh centuries for political purposes and that the kami pantheon was arranged with the imperial ancestor kami (the Sun Goddess) at its apex, most scholars now maintain that these myths and kami originated among the people, that the kami began as nature spirits, and that the myths were originally animistic tales told by peasants and fishermen. Several factors point to this conclusion. Similar tales appear in popular folklore. Even today, we can pick out primitive elements in the shrine rituals that venerate these kami, and identify these elements with local beliefs and customs. These myths, moreover, manifest influence from other parts of Asia. For example, one Japanese myth about the marriage of the creator kami Izanagi and Izanami is similar to tales told in southeast Asian folklore.'3 The stories of how Izanami and Izanagi gave birth to the islands of Japan and how Izanami was killed and descended to the land of the dead also have their counterparts in Polynesia.1'* Folk tales of the Miao people of southern China resemble the tale of how the Sun Goddess became angry with her brother Susa no O's violence, retreating to a cave and remaining there until she was coaxed to come out.1' Korean myths contain motifs similar to that in the one about the descent to earth of the Sun Goddess's grandson (Hononinigi), whose descendants, according to the chronicles, became Japan's emperors.16 Moreover, the Kojiki tale of the marriage between a human maiden and the kami Omono Nushi is similar to Korean and Manchurian myths.'7 It thus is likely that these imported elements were transmitted through migrations and visits over a long period of time and were gradually incorporated into popular mythology.
Regarding the bold bit: if Amaterasu is related to the Vedic Dawn Goddess Usha, then - logically speaking - the Solar deity of the Southern Chinese Miao people who have a narrative similar to Amaterasu must be related to Usha too, surely. Equally related/unrelated.
3. Amaterasu is not actually identical to any male Vedic God either. But the following is the best argument for any [historical, non-modernist] attempts to make Amaterasu - the Kami under that exact name - male.* However, for such a purpose, it is both too late (i.e. not original view) and it is not canonical (not from established Shinto texts) but merely later interpretation.
* Not counting modern and admitted conjecture, though those will then put Amaterasu even further away from the definitely-female Usha.
eos.kokugakuin.ac.jp/modules/xwords/entry.php?entryID=27
Quote:Amaterasu is usually understood as a goddess. In an "alternate writing" quoted in Nihongi she calls herself a "woman" (taoyame), and her brother Susanoo also calls her his "elder sister" (ane). In the medieval period, however, some scholars interpreted Amaterasu as a male kami.
As per the above, only "some" scholars** interpreted her as male - and in the medieval period what's more. But what happened in such a later time becomes irrelevant, since earlier views existed and the Shinto narratives on Amaterasu (under that name and connected with the narratives/oral traditions of that named Kami) had already defined her as a female.
** It does not mention the religion of these scholars. Have to wonder: any Buddhist impetus, by any chance? Considering that Buddhism has done drastic rewrites of Others' Gods elsewhere in order to force-fit a superficially-Vedic format onto non-Vedic Asian religions to make Bauddhicisation of the population easier.
4. Again: Amaterasu is not a Goddess of dawn. This is also seen in how she is daily ritually worshipped in Shinto Shrines during both mornings and evenings (probably to do with sunrise and sunset, as these are notable bookends of the Sun's daily journey). Next to that, there are shrines to Amaterasu in the west of Japan that are specifically for worshipping the evening (~setting) Sun, which further distances her from anything that is peculiarly dawn-related.
E.g. visitshimane.com/?p=8307
Quote:Hinomisaki Shrine
This brightly coloured shrine is dedicated to the gods Amaterasu and Susano.
As it lies in the west, it was established as a shrine to protect the country after nightfall. It later became a holy site from which to worship the evening sun, and such rituals are held throughout the year.
And since even Goddess Wakahirume - who is the Morning Sun Kami - is still distinct from the dawn and the Dawn Kami, Wakahirume can't be introduced as "Usha" to Hindus either. The closest to Usha would be Ame-no-Uzume, the Dawn Kami. Though of course, her narratives again differ from that of the Hindu Amman uShA, the same way that the narratives of many other heathens' Dawn Goddesses differ. (Else these numerous other populations could be called Ushaputras too. Starting especially with Hindus, obviously.)
5. And this next is just for comparison's sake:
+ (Heathen) Koreans traced their history to at least 5000 years back. The Koreans apparently had a very ancient origin-legend for how their land was discovered by a (IIRC divine, solar-derived) hero in a more eastern region, and how it was thereafter populated by his people. Because this land lay even further east than where they were living before *, the legends have the hero referring to that early Korea as the "Land of the Morning Sun".
[* Not sure that the lands they dwelt in before Korea was China or even Mongolia, though I have heard genetics discussions mention that Koreans have Chinese origins. I do know that the very prolific and once prominent/aristocratic Korean "Han" family name does get traced to Shang dynasty origins in China. Confirmed in wackypedia.]
+ So neither the Korea="Land of the Morning Sun" nor Japan="Homeland/Source/Origin of the Sun" refer to the Dawn but to the *Sun*. And further, in Korea's case the legend literally referred to the country using "Morning Sun", yet its main native Sun deity was still not a Dawn deity but remains a (male) Sun God. In Japan's case, the country name's reference is not even to the Sun at some particular time of day - unlike with Korea - but just to the Sun in general (i.e. at all times). And Japan's most prominent Sun Kami is a female God besides, yet still not the Dawn. All in all, this makes the Korean version slightly closer to the Vedic situation of a Sun God than the Japanese case - and the legendary naming of Korea as Morning Sun makes it closer to the meaning of Dawn than Japan's "Source/Origin of the Sun" name - but the Korean Solar God is still not more Vedic. Though this Korean Sun God does drive a wagon/chariot; however, even in this there are sufficient differences - repeating post 111:
[quote name='Husky' date='10 January 2014 - 07:57 PM' timestamp='1389363598' post='116971']The PIE encroachment brigade can keep their paws off: unlike the Hindoo Soorya and his ratha of 7 ashvas or Hellenistic Helios with a chariot of 4 horses, the Korean Sun God has a chariot with 5 dragons harnessed to it :grins: (or was it a 5-headed dragon, drat, can't even remember that much). And to be even more different: [in Korean religion] the orb of the Sun goes about in its fixed movement everyday, but the [Korean] Sun God himself travels to earth in his ratha meanwhile.[/quote](IIRC he is said to come down to earth on his chariot every day, while the Sun - that he presides over - still moves in the heavens.)
Interesting is also that the main Chinese Sun God (the God of the solar orb itself **) is male but different yet again: his defining features - not to mention his backstory - are different from the Korean one and of course from Japan's Amaterasu Okami.
[** At times distinct from the divine archer God - husband of Chang'e - who lives on the Sun.]
+ The ancient Koreans also had entire ruling dynasties - such as that of Chumong - tracing descent from their solar deity, as Koreans were Sun-worshippers too.
But then, to repeat, a great many human populations in the world - including C/S American, Egyptian - have central solar deities and consequently also tend to have human dynasties tracing themselves to their Solar Deities. The Sun is a very important part of human life, so the recognition of the Sun as one or more paternal or maternal deities - as an ancestral deity of entire lineages and nations - is a very natural occurrence.