[quote name='Bharatvarsh2' date='27 October 2014 - 03:44 AM' timestamp='1414361186' post='117415']
Marishiten evolved from Ushas & she was popular among Samurai in medieval period who sometimes identified her with Amaterasu.
[/quote]
Sounds like a familiar Buddhism (Bauddhicisation) to me. Because Buddhism in China deliberately tried to merge the Buddhist Marichi* with IIRC the supreme Taoist Mother Goddess of the Big Dipper. Perhaps Buddhism had few other female deities available to encroach on the Big Dipper Goddess with? Since Marichi is one of the few female deities Buddhism came up with - though not all Buddhisms have her of course, and not the older forms of Buddhism. In Chang-e's case, Buddhism resorted to simply inventing a clone (different name) for the Chinese female moon Goddess in order to have a Buddhist variant, because Buddhism provided a Bauddhicised variant for all the native Gods when the originals could not be taken over from the adherents of the native religion.
* Have here been assuming - though I'm practically sure - that Marishiten is the Japanese version of the Buddhist Marichi.
Am aware that in Hindus' religion, Marichi is the name of a (male) Prajapati. The (Mahayana) Buddhist/Bauddhified Marichi is female. And I'm guessing the Buddhist Marichi relation to Usha might have been made because the word/name Marichi meant "a ray of light", unless it turns out the Buddhist Marichi was simply created from the ground up to be the Buddhist clone of Usha - the way Manjushri is the Buddhist clone of Kamadeva with a new name, and Vajrapani is a Buddhist clone of Indra, etc. (The name may additionally already have been associated with Usha in earlier Hindu literature, for all I know. But if so, then it would fit with how the Buddhist "Vaishravana" is the Buddhist clone of the Vedic God Kubera whose famous names in ancient Hindu literature already included Vaishravana, etc. <= Buddhism often uses a secondary popular name of a Vedic God to popularise the Buddhist clone-character with.)
Q: Shintos in Japan knew a lot of Vedic Gods - with associated rituals - before Buddhism came along and Bauddhicised these. So my question is: from your mention of Usha in the context of Marichi, was (the Hindu version of) the Hindu Goddess Usha in particular already known to the native Japanese too, before Buddhism brought in Marishiten? That is, did Buddhism in Japan bauddhify/swallow Vedic Usha's presence there first, under the Buddhist Marichi (the way other Vedic Gods in Japan got Bauddhified/got converted into their Buddhist clone counterparts along predictable lines*), and did Buddhism then use that to encroach on Amaterasu?
[* Buddhism seems to have a ... table for mapping between Vedic Gods and Buddhist clones. That is, Buddhism often uses the same mappings whenever it finds the Hindu/Vedic pantheon in any Asian country and wishes to start Bauddhicising these/wishes to organise (absorb) them into Buddhism in order to absorb Hindu religion into Buddhism thereby. (Mahayana) Buddhism even has a particular procedure to Bauddhicise any Hindu ("brahminical") ritual texts in Asia. Eventually Buddhism even developed a set of standard conversion mappings for Taoism too, to do the same to Taoism whenever Buddhism found Taoist deities outside of China/Taiwan.]
The attempted merger of *Marishiten* - that name - with Amaterasu seems very much a Buddhist attempt, rather than a Shinto or Hindu choice to conflate. Considering that, if it were Hindus, they'd have simply called the Indian Goddess by the primary name Usha, and if it was Shintos, they'd still have retained the primary Hindu name - or created a Japanese variant of it - and not used a Buddhist clone deity's name as intermediary/unnecessary additional variable.
Note: The Taoist Big Dipper Goddess is NOT Marichi. Also, the Taoist Goddess of the Big Dipper is NOT Amaterasu. (<- Also apparent from the small fact that the Big Dipper is NOT the Sun... The Taoist Goddess, while visible in the skies as the Big Dipper, is actually the Mother of all the Stars in the universe. And the well-known Taoist God who is her husband/consort is the Father of all the Stars.)
It is only Buddhist opportunism that chose to merge the rare female deity in Buddhism - present in Mahayana Buddhism - with a major native Goddess of China, and then tried to merge the same female Buddhist deity with another major Goddess of Japan. Neither of which is the dawn, btw, though even Amaterasu being the Sun is at least closer to the dawn than the Taoist Big Dipper Goddess is. This sort of thing is typical of why Buddhism makes No Sense in heathen Asian lands: Buddhism just wanted converts, for which purpose it was ready to indulge in blatant nonsense.
Edited to remove the Taoist Amman's Chinese name.
[quote name='Bharatvarsh2' date='27 October 2014 - 03:44 AM' timestamp='1414361186' post='117415']
Aizawa Seishisai was one of those who seem to have identified Amaterasu as a man as late as the 19th century.
[/quote]
I looked him up. Aizawa is mentioned as a "Confucian scholar" at eos.kokugakuin.ac.jp/modules/xwords/entry.php?entryID=405 In China at least, Confucianists often still worshipped the Gods, though they didn't seem to bother to notice that their restructuring of the Chinese=Taoist pantheon to make it fit more with their views was problematic. (Can't change the nature of Taoist Gods.)
In any case, he is not the last to consider Amaterasu as male. Even within the last 3 decades, (non-Shinto) Japanese writers have conjectured - to use their own words - that Amaterasu may have been an amalgamation of several, old, locally-worshipped, male Solar Kami. While the Kami called Amateru, for instance, was probably a male solar Kami. His name apparently has a solar meaning as does Amaterasu's, so it does not imply that Amaterasu's name derived/evolved from his. And while, conceivably, some of Amateru's centres of worship could have got conflated with Amaterasu too (though this too was IIRC a mere supposition that had been advanced), other Japanese scholars have argued that there are indications of an earlier origin for Amaterasu as a female solar Kami, and these scholars used the existence of similar narratives in China - narratives similar to that of Amaterasu - to make the case for an independent early identity of Amaterasu, distinct from that of the male solar Kamis under consideration who were also already worshipped then. [This is separate from how Shintos and Shinto organisations in the present do not view Amaterasu as having been male or even derived.]
Marishiten evolved from Ushas & she was popular among Samurai in medieval period who sometimes identified her with Amaterasu.
[/quote]
Sounds like a familiar Buddhism (Bauddhicisation) to me. Because Buddhism in China deliberately tried to merge the Buddhist Marichi* with IIRC the supreme Taoist Mother Goddess of the Big Dipper. Perhaps Buddhism had few other female deities available to encroach on the Big Dipper Goddess with? Since Marichi is one of the few female deities Buddhism came up with - though not all Buddhisms have her of course, and not the older forms of Buddhism. In Chang-e's case, Buddhism resorted to simply inventing a clone (different name) for the Chinese female moon Goddess in order to have a Buddhist variant, because Buddhism provided a Bauddhicised variant for all the native Gods when the originals could not be taken over from the adherents of the native religion.
* Have here been assuming - though I'm practically sure - that Marishiten is the Japanese version of the Buddhist Marichi.
Am aware that in Hindus' religion, Marichi is the name of a (male) Prajapati. The (Mahayana) Buddhist/Bauddhified Marichi is female. And I'm guessing the Buddhist Marichi relation to Usha might have been made because the word/name Marichi meant "a ray of light", unless it turns out the Buddhist Marichi was simply created from the ground up to be the Buddhist clone of Usha - the way Manjushri is the Buddhist clone of Kamadeva with a new name, and Vajrapani is a Buddhist clone of Indra, etc. (The name may additionally already have been associated with Usha in earlier Hindu literature, for all I know. But if so, then it would fit with how the Buddhist "Vaishravana" is the Buddhist clone of the Vedic God Kubera whose famous names in ancient Hindu literature already included Vaishravana, etc. <= Buddhism often uses a secondary popular name of a Vedic God to popularise the Buddhist clone-character with.)
Q: Shintos in Japan knew a lot of Vedic Gods - with associated rituals - before Buddhism came along and Bauddhicised these. So my question is: from your mention of Usha in the context of Marichi, was (the Hindu version of) the Hindu Goddess Usha in particular already known to the native Japanese too, before Buddhism brought in Marishiten? That is, did Buddhism in Japan bauddhify/swallow Vedic Usha's presence there first, under the Buddhist Marichi (the way other Vedic Gods in Japan got Bauddhified/got converted into their Buddhist clone counterparts along predictable lines*), and did Buddhism then use that to encroach on Amaterasu?
[* Buddhism seems to have a ... table for mapping between Vedic Gods and Buddhist clones. That is, Buddhism often uses the same mappings whenever it finds the Hindu/Vedic pantheon in any Asian country and wishes to start Bauddhicising these/wishes to organise (absorb) them into Buddhism in order to absorb Hindu religion into Buddhism thereby. (Mahayana) Buddhism even has a particular procedure to Bauddhicise any Hindu ("brahminical") ritual texts in Asia. Eventually Buddhism even developed a set of standard conversion mappings for Taoism too, to do the same to Taoism whenever Buddhism found Taoist deities outside of China/Taiwan.]
The attempted merger of *Marishiten* - that name - with Amaterasu seems very much a Buddhist attempt, rather than a Shinto or Hindu choice to conflate. Considering that, if it were Hindus, they'd have simply called the Indian Goddess by the primary name Usha, and if it was Shintos, they'd still have retained the primary Hindu name - or created a Japanese variant of it - and not used a Buddhist clone deity's name as intermediary/unnecessary additional variable.
Note: The Taoist Big Dipper Goddess is NOT Marichi. Also, the Taoist Goddess of the Big Dipper is NOT Amaterasu. (<- Also apparent from the small fact that the Big Dipper is NOT the Sun... The Taoist Goddess, while visible in the skies as the Big Dipper, is actually the Mother of all the Stars in the universe. And the well-known Taoist God who is her husband/consort is the Father of all the Stars.)
It is only Buddhist opportunism that chose to merge the rare female deity in Buddhism - present in Mahayana Buddhism - with a major native Goddess of China, and then tried to merge the same female Buddhist deity with another major Goddess of Japan. Neither of which is the dawn, btw, though even Amaterasu being the Sun is at least closer to the dawn than the Taoist Big Dipper Goddess is. This sort of thing is typical of why Buddhism makes No Sense in heathen Asian lands: Buddhism just wanted converts, for which purpose it was ready to indulge in blatant nonsense.
Edited to remove the Taoist Amman's Chinese name.
[quote name='Bharatvarsh2' date='27 October 2014 - 03:44 AM' timestamp='1414361186' post='117415']
Aizawa Seishisai was one of those who seem to have identified Amaterasu as a man as late as the 19th century.
[/quote]
I looked him up. Aizawa is mentioned as a "Confucian scholar" at eos.kokugakuin.ac.jp/modules/xwords/entry.php?entryID=405 In China at least, Confucianists often still worshipped the Gods, though they didn't seem to bother to notice that their restructuring of the Chinese=Taoist pantheon to make it fit more with their views was problematic. (Can't change the nature of Taoist Gods.)
In any case, he is not the last to consider Amaterasu as male. Even within the last 3 decades, (non-Shinto) Japanese writers have conjectured - to use their own words - that Amaterasu may have been an amalgamation of several, old, locally-worshipped, male Solar Kami. While the Kami called Amateru, for instance, was probably a male solar Kami. His name apparently has a solar meaning as does Amaterasu's, so it does not imply that Amaterasu's name derived/evolved from his. And while, conceivably, some of Amateru's centres of worship could have got conflated with Amaterasu too (though this too was IIRC a mere supposition that had been advanced), other Japanese scholars have argued that there are indications of an earlier origin for Amaterasu as a female solar Kami, and these scholars used the existence of similar narratives in China - narratives similar to that of Amaterasu - to make the case for an independent early identity of Amaterasu, distinct from that of the male solar Kamis under consideration who were also already worshipped then. [This is separate from how Shintos and Shinto organisations in the present do not view Amaterasu as having been male or even derived.]