Oh how could I have missed the best bit of all? IE-ism develops in unexpected directions sometimes.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vedism
The "Anthony, 2007" reference is to:
Respekt man. What a grand oryan title for storytelling that is: the oryans "shaped the world" - and the "modern world" what's more, i.e. their influence is to be ongoing still - complete with Pretzel's I mean Witzel's "oryan tank" and all ("the horse, the wheel", the spiel).
Oh well, the title doesn't claim they called themselves oryans. Just "anonymous" 'bronze-age riders from the Eurasian Steppes' <- look, Anthony identifies the Urheimat in the title itself! Everyone by now is familiar with Indo-Europods="bronze-age riders from the Eurasian Steppes", so Anthony knew there was no need for him to make explicit mention.
(By the way, when they threaten that "The Wheel" was a product of these Steppe people and shaped the world, do they mean to imply these Steppe people *invented* the wheel? Because Mesopotamia - say - had the wheel a long time ago too... <- Apparently who first came up with that is also a contentious issue.
Or maybe Anthony just means that the Indo-Europds were to have used "the horse, the wheel" to get about so that they could then "shape the modern world" with their "language"?)
But to get to the actual point: So Indra is now non-IE? And Soma too? Who saw this coming from the direction of IE-ism/oryanism? (Not me, BTW.)
They're introducing words like "syncretic" etc. Sounds like the development of excuses to explain away problematic situations like say things that exist in Hindu religion but are missing from alien religions? But until ... "yesterday", aliens insisted that Thor=Indra. So what happened/Who died? (Anyway, Thor is not Indra.)
The "Vedism" wacky page - which is also titled the "Historical Vedic Religion" - claims that historical Vedic religion has everything to do with This, That and The Other Thing of "Kurgan culture" and further links to PIE pages for "more info". Kurgan culture. <- Isn't that the most oryan-supremacist urheimat theory remaining of all the current urheimat theories? [Complete with patriarchal warlike-for-the-sake-of-it societies invading left and right.] Also notable is that not even the Anatolian hypothesis of Renfrew (was it?) got a mention on this wacky page, though it's been some time since the "Kurgan" theory of Marija Gimbutas' (was it not her?) was regarded suspect - IIRC for being obvious (feminist?) history revisionism - in favour of considering alternatives that at least sounded "more scholarly/more likely because less B-fantasy-movie" by post-Gimbutas IE-ists. Or have they reverted back to Gimbutas' Kurgans? I suppose The Oryans simply weren't interesting enough in all those other theories. "B-fantasy-movie it IS."
I'm still waiting for Oryanists to fall over themselves - as they must - to claim Gobekli Tepe. I mean, come on: already dubbed "oldest civilisation" (by several millennia) PLUS it's said to be the genetic origin for the ancestral wheat form used in human cultivation/agro (farming!), AND it's found smack in Turkey, which is only the nth favoured Oryan Urheimat (if the former Soviet Republic et al can't provide, and since Scandinavia was 'sadly' disqualified as urheimat in early rounds :oh-woe
.
Tragically, at 12000 BP the inhabitants of Gobekli Tepe were likely to have been even more African-looking than the 7000 BP "African skintoned" La Brana Stone Age European man whose genes were "otherwise" specifically-Scandinavian.
Ooh, the full import of the above wackypedia excerpt just hit me. (I'm slow, what can I say. If the world exploded now, I'd still be here tomorrow because it wouldn't have sunk in yet.)
As per the 'Anthony' citation in wackypedia's own IE-ist page for "Vedism":
- It seems aliens in IE-ism itself have started theorising that Indran is now specific to Indians. And that he is in fact non-IE even. (Not that Indran being ours was news to Hindoos. But the point is that now, AIT or not, Indran isn't oryan/IE. That is, he remains Vedic, just not IE.)
- And so, since Indran is not IE as per some IE-ists themselves apparently, can tell all the delusional alien "vedicists" - who are regularly pretending that Indran must have been *their* "ancestral" God (by Argumentum ad Oryanism) and that they "therefore" have the "Oryan Right To Dabble in the Vedam" -
again, can tell the delusional oryanist dabblers that :oh-so-tragically: Indra is exclusively our [as in: the "miscegenated Indians", from the alien POV] ancestral God, and that the alien dabblers can therefore Drop Dead Already. And since much of the Vedam is in praise of Indran moreover ("1/4 of the Rig Vedam" as per the above excerpt, and IE-ism further declares the Rig the oldest of the chaturvedam), that makes the aliens'/oryanists' pretensions to dabbling in the Vedam out of bounds for them even by oryanist arguments. I mean, with Indran being non-IE even from an IE point of view, he and the Riks to him - if not all the Vedam, since "Indra is the Bull (coursing through the entirety) of the Vedam" - are officially no longer to do with the aliens/oryanists. :Score:
Indran and hence the Vedam - at a mimimum all the parts of the Vedam praising him - are not "Indo-European" anymore: because it has now become liturgy significantly-centred on a non-IE God that is merely written in an allegedly "IE" language, Sanskrit. That is, the language employed may still be claimed as IE, but the contents - Indran Himself and the praise to Indran - are not IE. (So much for the "Pure Vedism" reconstructionist movement by alien dabblers/oryanists. Sadly, the Vedam is apparently not "pure IE" on even important points. But it is rather impure "miscegenated Indian". So die.)
But proof of supreme greatness of Mahendra: What other God can claim to have beaten the evil, encroaching clutches of oryanism? [Well yeah, okay, Aphrodite admittedly. <- The oryanists weren't happy at all with the British scholarly books by IIRC Classicists, featuring - among other 'small' discoveries/proofs - how Aphrodite is -demonstrably- not IE. IE-ists commenting showed marked displeasure concerning the import of the relevant discovery: it didn't escape them that the direct implication was that Aphrodite is not IE. But they couldn't actually argue away the valid points raised either, and trailed off lamely with "of course she is (must be) IE" type retorts instead, which uh...doesn't actually constitute a valid argument. Anyway, it's not like Hellenes ever claimed their Goddess was "IE". She was just native to their space, and which she remains as per the findings. And even today you have Hellenes at ysee.gr deriving Olympos from IIRC the native Pelasgian, of which it is not known that it is IE and it is further even thought to not be IE.]
The interesting stuff was:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vedism
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vedism
Quote:The Vedic beliefs and practices of the pre-classical era were closely related to the hypothesised Proto-Indo-European religion,[25][26] and the Indo-Iranian religion.[27] According to Anthony, the Old Indic religion probably emerged among Indo-European immigrants in the contact zone between the Zeravshan River (present-day Uzbekistan) and (present-day) Iran.[28] It was "a syncretic mixture of old Central Asian and new Indo-European elements",[28] which borrowed "distinctive religious beliefs and practices"[29] from the Bactriaââ¬âMargiana Culture.[29] At least 383 non-Indo-European words were borrowed from this culture, including the god Indra and the ritual drink Soma.[30] According to Anthony,
Quote:Many of the qualities of Indo-Iranian god of might/victory, Verethraghna, were transferred to the adopted god Indra, who became the central deity of the developing Old Indic culture. Indra was the subject of 250 hymns, a quarter of the Rig Veda. He was associated more than any other deity with Soma, a stimulant drug (perhaps derived from Ephedra) probably borrowed from the BMAC religion. His rise to prominence was a peculiar trait of the Old Indic speakers.[21]
The "Anthony, 2007" reference is to:
Quote:Anthony, David W. (2007), The Horse The Wheel And Language. How Bronze-Age Riders From the Eurasian Steppes Shaped The Modern World, Princeton University Press
Respekt man. What a grand oryan title for storytelling that is: the oryans "shaped the world" - and the "modern world" what's more, i.e. their influence is to be ongoing still - complete with Pretzel's I mean Witzel's "oryan tank" and all ("the horse, the wheel", the spiel).
Oh well, the title doesn't claim they called themselves oryans. Just "anonymous" 'bronze-age riders from the Eurasian Steppes' <- look, Anthony identifies the Urheimat in the title itself! Everyone by now is familiar with Indo-Europods="bronze-age riders from the Eurasian Steppes", so Anthony knew there was no need for him to make explicit mention.
(By the way, when they threaten that "The Wheel" was a product of these Steppe people and shaped the world, do they mean to imply these Steppe people *invented* the wheel? Because Mesopotamia - say - had the wheel a long time ago too... <- Apparently who first came up with that is also a contentious issue.
Or maybe Anthony just means that the Indo-Europds were to have used "the horse, the wheel" to get about so that they could then "shape the modern world" with their "language"?)
But to get to the actual point: So Indra is now non-IE? And Soma too? Who saw this coming from the direction of IE-ism/oryanism? (Not me, BTW.)
They're introducing words like "syncretic" etc. Sounds like the development of excuses to explain away problematic situations like say things that exist in Hindu religion but are missing from alien religions? But until ... "yesterday", aliens insisted that Thor=Indra. So what happened/Who died? (Anyway, Thor is not Indra.)
The "Vedism" wacky page - which is also titled the "Historical Vedic Religion" - claims that historical Vedic religion has everything to do with This, That and The Other Thing of "Kurgan culture" and further links to PIE pages for "more info". Kurgan culture. <- Isn't that the most oryan-supremacist urheimat theory remaining of all the current urheimat theories? [Complete with patriarchal warlike-for-the-sake-of-it societies invading left and right.] Also notable is that not even the Anatolian hypothesis of Renfrew (was it?) got a mention on this wacky page, though it's been some time since the "Kurgan" theory of Marija Gimbutas' (was it not her?) was regarded suspect - IIRC for being obvious (feminist?) history revisionism - in favour of considering alternatives that at least sounded "more scholarly/more likely because less B-fantasy-movie" by post-Gimbutas IE-ists. Or have they reverted back to Gimbutas' Kurgans? I suppose The Oryans simply weren't interesting enough in all those other theories. "B-fantasy-movie it IS."
I'm still waiting for Oryanists to fall over themselves - as they must - to claim Gobekli Tepe. I mean, come on: already dubbed "oldest civilisation" (by several millennia) PLUS it's said to be the genetic origin for the ancestral wheat form used in human cultivation/agro (farming!), AND it's found smack in Turkey, which is only the nth favoured Oryan Urheimat (if the former Soviet Republic et al can't provide, and since Scandinavia was 'sadly' disqualified as urheimat in early rounds :oh-woe

Tragically, at 12000 BP the inhabitants of Gobekli Tepe were likely to have been even more African-looking than the 7000 BP "African skintoned" La Brana Stone Age European man whose genes were "otherwise" specifically-Scandinavian.
Ooh, the full import of the above wackypedia excerpt just hit me. (I'm slow, what can I say. If the world exploded now, I'd still be here tomorrow because it wouldn't have sunk in yet.)
As per the 'Anthony' citation in wackypedia's own IE-ist page for "Vedism":
- It seems aliens in IE-ism itself have started theorising that Indran is now specific to Indians. And that he is in fact non-IE even. (Not that Indran being ours was news to Hindoos. But the point is that now, AIT or not, Indran isn't oryan/IE. That is, he remains Vedic, just not IE.)
- And so, since Indran is not IE as per some IE-ists themselves apparently, can tell all the delusional alien "vedicists" - who are regularly pretending that Indran must have been *their* "ancestral" God (by Argumentum ad Oryanism) and that they "therefore" have the "Oryan Right To Dabble in the Vedam" -
again, can tell the delusional oryanist dabblers that :oh-so-tragically: Indra is exclusively our [as in: the "miscegenated Indians", from the alien POV] ancestral God, and that the alien dabblers can therefore Drop Dead Already. And since much of the Vedam is in praise of Indran moreover ("1/4 of the Rig Vedam" as per the above excerpt, and IE-ism further declares the Rig the oldest of the chaturvedam), that makes the aliens'/oryanists' pretensions to dabbling in the Vedam out of bounds for them even by oryanist arguments. I mean, with Indran being non-IE even from an IE point of view, he and the Riks to him - if not all the Vedam, since "Indra is the Bull (coursing through the entirety) of the Vedam" - are officially no longer to do with the aliens/oryanists. :Score:
Indran and hence the Vedam - at a mimimum all the parts of the Vedam praising him - are not "Indo-European" anymore: because it has now become liturgy significantly-centred on a non-IE God that is merely written in an allegedly "IE" language, Sanskrit. That is, the language employed may still be claimed as IE, but the contents - Indran Himself and the praise to Indran - are not IE. (So much for the "Pure Vedism" reconstructionist movement by alien dabblers/oryanists. Sadly, the Vedam is apparently not "pure IE" on even important points. But it is rather impure "miscegenated Indian". So die.)
But proof of supreme greatness of Mahendra: What other God can claim to have beaten the evil, encroaching clutches of oryanism? [Well yeah, okay, Aphrodite admittedly. <- The oryanists weren't happy at all with the British scholarly books by IIRC Classicists, featuring - among other 'small' discoveries/proofs - how Aphrodite is -demonstrably- not IE. IE-ists commenting showed marked displeasure concerning the import of the relevant discovery: it didn't escape them that the direct implication was that Aphrodite is not IE. But they couldn't actually argue away the valid points raised either, and trailed off lamely with "of course she is (must be) IE" type retorts instead, which uh...doesn't actually constitute a valid argument. Anyway, it's not like Hellenes ever claimed their Goddess was "IE". She was just native to their space, and which she remains as per the findings. And even today you have Hellenes at ysee.gr deriving Olympos from IIRC the native Pelasgian, of which it is not known that it is IE and it is further even thought to not be IE.]
The interesting stuff was:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vedism
Quote:The Vedic beliefs and practices of the pre-classical era were closely related to the hypothesised Proto-Indo-European religion,[25][26] and the Indo-Iranian religion.[27] According to Anthony, the Old Indic religion probably emerged among Indo-European immigrants in the contact zone between the Zeravshan River (present-day Uzbekistan) and (present-day) Iran.[28] It was "a syncretic mixture of old Central Asian and new Indo-European elements",[28] which borrowed "distinctive religious beliefs and practices"[29] from the Bactriaââ¬âMargiana Culture.[29] At least 383 non-Indo-European words were borrowed from this culture, including the god Indra and the ritual drink Soma.[30] According to Anthony,
Quote:Many of the qualities of Indo-Iranian god of might/victory, Verethraghna, were transferred to the adopted god Indra, who became the central deity of the developing Old Indic culture. Indra was the subject of 250 hymns, a quarter of the Rig Veda. He was associated more than any other deity with Soma, a stimulant drug (perhaps derived from Ephedra) probably borrowed from the BMAC religion. His rise to prominence was a peculiar trait of the Old Indic speakers.[21]
[...]
Anthony, David W. (2007), The Horse The Wheel And Language. How Bronze-Age Riders From the Eurasian Steppes Shaped The Modern World, Princeton University Press