Post 3/3
This is the only post relevant to this thread.
3. While modern physics' alignment with Hindoos' Vedic religion does not entirely count as an independent source of verification, modelled as it is - to some extent and at the very least indirectly - on assumptions/ideas from HindOO religion, we can all however use the findings of modern physics as independent proof of a different, non-related religion. Taoism.
And indeed, traditional Taoists have found it to align so very well that they have shown how well modern physics compares to the 'Evolution of the Cosmos in stages, as revealed by Taoism' (Taoist cosmology).
Taoism has a cosmology somewhat like that of Hindu religion (but specifically unlike Buddhism or Jainism etc).
+ In Taoism, from no manifest precursor [i.e. from the unmanifest state of the Tao] comes Taoist God WJ from whom comes TJ from whom comes Yin Yang. (Names of Taoist Gods abbreviated.) In this sequence somewhere comes also the Chi. And the 5 bhootas (elements) of Taoism also are eventually evolved in the process. This is ancient Taoist religion.
Taoism is VERY MUCH concerned with the elements and its relation to the pursuit of immortality and bhukti too, etc. Taoism is of course very much concerned with Yin Yang (duh). And the First Origins mentioned above are IIRC the very Three Pure Ones of Taoism, i.e. emanating from the Tao itself, who are the very foundation of the religion.
If, in large outline, it sounds like Hindoo religion, because of similarities in general cosmological perception (like in its "evolution in stages" aspect) - just like the founding Kamis of Shinto cosmology sounded similar for these reasons - then it should be made clear that in details Taoism varies, as always. Therefore, Do Not Encroach. <- Again, that is not a request I'm making, that's a threat.
+ Somewhere in the middle of this Taoist process of the evolution of the universe from WJ all the way to the bhootas, is another God S-something, who is the ancestor of that famous Taoist Goddess who is the Mother of All the Stars - who, in combination with her husband (who is the Father of all the Stars) - brought forth all the stars. A knowledgeable traditional Taoist source explained that this occurrence was a specific cosmic event, and showed how this is indicated even in the clearly-descriptive multiple names of these Divine Parents of Stars. The last further explained that in S's lineage also follow the Gods presiding over the various realms, such as the Jade Emperor (Jade Emperor furthermore governs the Taoist Cosmic Order, and ensuring it adheres to the Taoist Cosmic Law. Sort of like what Hindoos might think of as a Taoist Rta).
Note that the Mother and Father of all the Stars - of which the 9 Emperors are specifically recalled - are naturally Divine Parents of all things living, since all life comes from (evolved from, is made possible by) the Stars, and hence the Taoist Mother and Father of the Stars are naturally recognised as the Ancestors of all life and worshipped as such in Taoism.
What does all the above have to do with [physics] cosmology?
*Everything*. Taoism is all about space/kosmos, about the origin of the universe - the Gods who gave rise to the universe in its various stages, and who are thus the Ancestors of the All - to the Gods who are embodied in the current generation of Stars and constellations, to the Gods of our planet and other planets in the solar system. I.e. Taoism describes the evolution of the universe from the beginning to the present stage. (<- I suspect this is actually what western people labelled the Taoist influence behind [some of] the formative Kamis in Shinto cosmology [Kotoamatsukami]. Also, when the Shintos say some Shinto Kami who were involved in the original stages of creation "hid" themselves thereafter - see post 119 - I think that they mean that that stage of the cosmic evolutionary process had finished, and that, from the Shinto Gods presiding over these intermediate stages, further Gods/stages of formation evolved in the process of the Shinto creation of the universe/cosmology.) Likewise with Taoism, which also anticipates further evolutionary stages to the universe, accompanied by the emergence [appearance] of further Taoist Gods.
Taoism is associated with both space and time: already seen in how the Taoist trimoorti preside over the past, present and future. The appearance of the Gods follows the stages of the evolution of the universe: from the 3 Pure Ones (who are the primordial Tao's manifestation) to the multiple generations of the stars, to the current generation of stars, to the present lives on the planet, as well as the elements, as mentioned before. Note how - similar to Hindoo-dom - both consciousness and matter are covered in Taoism too.
In fact, the sudden manifestation of WJ without visible precursor (i.e. directly from the primordial unmanifest Tao) matches with Hawking et al's sudden appearance of the electron-sized particle that expanded to become our universe.
This last is a reference to the problem with modern western arguments against Gods: much of the west isn't familiar with the various heathen cosmological views and hence think/assume that their argument against the christian-class gawd type characters will also work as an argument against all Gods, including the real Gods of heathenisms. The christian creation story is of course nonsense and easily denied. But Taoist cosmological origins of the universe follow that of physics rather closely and long predates modern physics. Hawking's explication of there being no need for a 'god' to explain our universe - which certainly negates the silly christo-class mono-moronic 'gawd' entities - therefore doesn't deny the Daoist Gods. It also doesn't deny the Hindoo Gods. Taoism and Hindu religion (and Shinto religion, etc) still hold.
I'm not criticising Hawking. I like him and approve of his argumentation: it argues sensibly for the self-sufficiency of the universe (denied by the christo-class religions, btw, since such arguments further render their gawd-character without any reason to exist).
But if Hawking is aiming to deny all kinds of Gods then his argument is at best incomplete and at worst invalid because irrelevant. (It so happens that it is also untrue, since the Gods of at least 2 religions coincidentally do exist. But SH can't know that, though it doesn't detract from the fact that his arguments are logically sound.) Again: Hawking's explanation only denies the gawd entity of biblical religion. Not that further invalidation was needed, since the mono-moronist plague - i.e. biblical religion - is so patently false that only those with the aptly phrased "blind faith" adhere to it, and Hawking's argument may not help wake them up.
Hawking argued - using his knowledge of black holes (specifically the feature that "time does not exist in black holes") combined with the fact that the universe was essentially a black hole at origin - that therefore time did not exist at the very begin of the universe, so that time only began when our universe began (approx around the time of the big bang). That is, his argument was that there was no time *before* the universe - that there was no "Before" - hence nothing could have existed "before" (=temporal phrase) our universe, including no gawd/no time for monogawd to "create" the universe/start it off etc.
But even if you ignore that in Hindu religion, Time itself is one of the tattvas produced from the evolution from primordial puruShottama/Shiva/Ishwara (e.g. IIRC Kashmiri Shaivam mentions this) - which is noticeable by its effect on the jeevatmas/pashus (i.e. the jeevatman is subject to several tattvas, including time) -
it remains a fact that in Taoism there is no *manifest* precursor to WJ, which also implies timelessness, as WJ seems to have popped into being like ... a sponteanously-appearing particle from physics, including the very kind of tiny particle that could evolve into the universe.
Ironically/embarrassingly for christianism, christians have resorted to a pathetic means of encroachment: a case of Bad Piggy-backing. Definitions: Piggy-backing is where missionary parasites use heathenisms' arguments to try and argue for themselves. Bad piggy-backing is when it actually doesn't work out the way the parasites expected/hoped, and instead makes them look stupider to onlookers in the end.
Christians have been referring to the earlier work of physicists (an Indian of at least Hindu name among them): that, contrary to Hawking's argument, time did not necessarily start with the creation of our current universe, but that a previous variant of the universe existed. While this argument is still in line with Hindoo cosmology, it specifically does Not prove christianism (and I won't even bring up the laughable 4004 BCE). Christianism does NOT have ideas about the universe let alone the origination of matter or consciousness, beyond puerile statements that "gawd did it".
The difference is that heathenisms are actually surprisingly detailed - and show surprising grasp of understanding/perception of (not to mention interest in) the real nature of the cosmos - in their cosmological descriptions. And all this was developed in a time long before there were means to verify anything. At a time when people could have come up with any answer (the way christo-class ideologies later came up with nonsensical answers), heathenisms came to very sensible conclusions which remain enlightening and significantly valid (or otherwise untested) which implies either the brilliance of heathen minds (the kind of minds that christoislamania has never produced, not counting plagiarism, so that people had to wait for the appearance of atheism to produce anything) OR which implies the validity of the heathen worldviews: the view of a reality of Gods who evolved the cosmos as per various heathenisms. After all, those brilliant heathen minds never claimed originating their ideas, they merely claimed to having grasped verities.
Mwahahaha. Even wackypedia is forced to admit this much (well, it can hardly do otherwise. The 3 Pure Ones are a well-known part of Taoism):
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Pure_Ones
This is the only post relevant to this thread.
3. While modern physics' alignment with Hindoos' Vedic religion does not entirely count as an independent source of verification, modelled as it is - to some extent and at the very least indirectly - on assumptions/ideas from HindOO religion, we can all however use the findings of modern physics as independent proof of a different, non-related religion. Taoism.
And indeed, traditional Taoists have found it to align so very well that they have shown how well modern physics compares to the 'Evolution of the Cosmos in stages, as revealed by Taoism' (Taoist cosmology).
Taoism has a cosmology somewhat like that of Hindu religion (but specifically unlike Buddhism or Jainism etc).
+ In Taoism, from no manifest precursor [i.e. from the unmanifest state of the Tao] comes Taoist God WJ from whom comes TJ from whom comes Yin Yang. (Names of Taoist Gods abbreviated.) In this sequence somewhere comes also the Chi. And the 5 bhootas (elements) of Taoism also are eventually evolved in the process. This is ancient Taoist religion.
Taoism is VERY MUCH concerned with the elements and its relation to the pursuit of immortality and bhukti too, etc. Taoism is of course very much concerned with Yin Yang (duh). And the First Origins mentioned above are IIRC the very Three Pure Ones of Taoism, i.e. emanating from the Tao itself, who are the very foundation of the religion.
If, in large outline, it sounds like Hindoo religion, because of similarities in general cosmological perception (like in its "evolution in stages" aspect) - just like the founding Kamis of Shinto cosmology sounded similar for these reasons - then it should be made clear that in details Taoism varies, as always. Therefore, Do Not Encroach. <- Again, that is not a request I'm making, that's a threat.
+ Somewhere in the middle of this Taoist process of the evolution of the universe from WJ all the way to the bhootas, is another God S-something, who is the ancestor of that famous Taoist Goddess who is the Mother of All the Stars - who, in combination with her husband (who is the Father of all the Stars) - brought forth all the stars. A knowledgeable traditional Taoist source explained that this occurrence was a specific cosmic event, and showed how this is indicated even in the clearly-descriptive multiple names of these Divine Parents of Stars. The last further explained that in S's lineage also follow the Gods presiding over the various realms, such as the Jade Emperor (Jade Emperor furthermore governs the Taoist Cosmic Order, and ensuring it adheres to the Taoist Cosmic Law. Sort of like what Hindoos might think of as a Taoist Rta).
Note that the Mother and Father of all the Stars - of which the 9 Emperors are specifically recalled - are naturally Divine Parents of all things living, since all life comes from (evolved from, is made possible by) the Stars, and hence the Taoist Mother and Father of the Stars are naturally recognised as the Ancestors of all life and worshipped as such in Taoism.
What does all the above have to do with [physics] cosmology?
*Everything*. Taoism is all about space/kosmos, about the origin of the universe - the Gods who gave rise to the universe in its various stages, and who are thus the Ancestors of the All - to the Gods who are embodied in the current generation of Stars and constellations, to the Gods of our planet and other planets in the solar system. I.e. Taoism describes the evolution of the universe from the beginning to the present stage. (<- I suspect this is actually what western people labelled the Taoist influence behind [some of] the formative Kamis in Shinto cosmology [Kotoamatsukami]. Also, when the Shintos say some Shinto Kami who were involved in the original stages of creation "hid" themselves thereafter - see post 119 - I think that they mean that that stage of the cosmic evolutionary process had finished, and that, from the Shinto Gods presiding over these intermediate stages, further Gods/stages of formation evolved in the process of the Shinto creation of the universe/cosmology.) Likewise with Taoism, which also anticipates further evolutionary stages to the universe, accompanied by the emergence [appearance] of further Taoist Gods.
Taoism is associated with both space and time: already seen in how the Taoist trimoorti preside over the past, present and future. The appearance of the Gods follows the stages of the evolution of the universe: from the 3 Pure Ones (who are the primordial Tao's manifestation) to the multiple generations of the stars, to the current generation of stars, to the present lives on the planet, as well as the elements, as mentioned before. Note how - similar to Hindoo-dom - both consciousness and matter are covered in Taoism too.
In fact, the sudden manifestation of WJ without visible precursor (i.e. directly from the primordial unmanifest Tao) matches with Hawking et al's sudden appearance of the electron-sized particle that expanded to become our universe.
This last is a reference to the problem with modern western arguments against Gods: much of the west isn't familiar with the various heathen cosmological views and hence think/assume that their argument against the christian-class gawd type characters will also work as an argument against all Gods, including the real Gods of heathenisms. The christian creation story is of course nonsense and easily denied. But Taoist cosmological origins of the universe follow that of physics rather closely and long predates modern physics. Hawking's explication of there being no need for a 'god' to explain our universe - which certainly negates the silly christo-class mono-moronic 'gawd' entities - therefore doesn't deny the Daoist Gods. It also doesn't deny the Hindoo Gods. Taoism and Hindu religion (and Shinto religion, etc) still hold.
I'm not criticising Hawking. I like him and approve of his argumentation: it argues sensibly for the self-sufficiency of the universe (denied by the christo-class religions, btw, since such arguments further render their gawd-character without any reason to exist).
But if Hawking is aiming to deny all kinds of Gods then his argument is at best incomplete and at worst invalid because irrelevant. (It so happens that it is also untrue, since the Gods of at least 2 religions coincidentally do exist. But SH can't know that, though it doesn't detract from the fact that his arguments are logically sound.) Again: Hawking's explanation only denies the gawd entity of biblical religion. Not that further invalidation was needed, since the mono-moronist plague - i.e. biblical religion - is so patently false that only those with the aptly phrased "blind faith" adhere to it, and Hawking's argument may not help wake them up.
Hawking argued - using his knowledge of black holes (specifically the feature that "time does not exist in black holes") combined with the fact that the universe was essentially a black hole at origin - that therefore time did not exist at the very begin of the universe, so that time only began when our universe began (approx around the time of the big bang). That is, his argument was that there was no time *before* the universe - that there was no "Before" - hence nothing could have existed "before" (=temporal phrase) our universe, including no gawd/no time for monogawd to "create" the universe/start it off etc.
But even if you ignore that in Hindu religion, Time itself is one of the tattvas produced from the evolution from primordial puruShottama/Shiva/Ishwara (e.g. IIRC Kashmiri Shaivam mentions this) - which is noticeable by its effect on the jeevatmas/pashus (i.e. the jeevatman is subject to several tattvas, including time) -
it remains a fact that in Taoism there is no *manifest* precursor to WJ, which also implies timelessness, as WJ seems to have popped into being like ... a sponteanously-appearing particle from physics, including the very kind of tiny particle that could evolve into the universe.
Ironically/embarrassingly for christianism, christians have resorted to a pathetic means of encroachment: a case of Bad Piggy-backing. Definitions: Piggy-backing is where missionary parasites use heathenisms' arguments to try and argue for themselves. Bad piggy-backing is when it actually doesn't work out the way the parasites expected/hoped, and instead makes them look stupider to onlookers in the end.
Christians have been referring to the earlier work of physicists (an Indian of at least Hindu name among them): that, contrary to Hawking's argument, time did not necessarily start with the creation of our current universe, but that a previous variant of the universe existed. While this argument is still in line with Hindoo cosmology, it specifically does Not prove christianism (and I won't even bring up the laughable 4004 BCE). Christianism does NOT have ideas about the universe let alone the origination of matter or consciousness, beyond puerile statements that "gawd did it".
The difference is that heathenisms are actually surprisingly detailed - and show surprising grasp of understanding/perception of (not to mention interest in) the real nature of the cosmos - in their cosmological descriptions. And all this was developed in a time long before there were means to verify anything. At a time when people could have come up with any answer (the way christo-class ideologies later came up with nonsensical answers), heathenisms came to very sensible conclusions which remain enlightening and significantly valid (or otherwise untested) which implies either the brilliance of heathen minds (the kind of minds that christoislamania has never produced, not counting plagiarism, so that people had to wait for the appearance of atheism to produce anything) OR which implies the validity of the heathen worldviews: the view of a reality of Gods who evolved the cosmos as per various heathenisms. After all, those brilliant heathen minds never claimed originating their ideas, they merely claimed to having grasped verities.
Mwahahaha. Even wackypedia is forced to admit this much (well, it can hardly do otherwise. The 3 Pure Ones are a well-known part of Taoism):
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Pure_Ones
Quote:The Three Pure Ones (Chinese: ä¸â°Ã¦Â¸â¦; pinyin: SÃÂnqëng) also translated as the Three Pure Pellucid Ones, the Three Pristine Ones, the Three Divine Teachers, the Three Clarities, or the Three Purities are the Taoist Trinity, the three highest Gods in the Taoist pantheon. They are regarded as pure manifestation of the Tao and the origin of all sentient beings. From the Taoist classic Tao Te Ching, it was held that "The Tao produced One; One produced Two; Two produced Three; Three produced All things." It is generally agreed that: Tao produced One - Wuji produced Taiji; One produced Two - Taiji produced Yin and Yang [or Liangyi (Ã¥â¦Â©Ã¥ââ¬) in scholastic term]. However, the subject of how Two produced Three has remained a popular debate among Taoist Scholars. Most scholars believe that it refers to the Interaction between Yin and Yang, with the presence of Chi, or life force.[1]
In religious Taoism, the theory of how Tao produces One, Two, and Three is also explained. In Tao produces One - Wuji produces Taiji, it represents the Great Tao, embodied by Hùndùn WújàYuánshàTiÃÂnwáng (æ··æ²Åçâ¡æ¥µåâ¦Æå§â¹Ã¥Â¤Â©Ã§Å½â¹, "Heavenly King of the Chaotic Never-ending Primordial Beginning") at a time of pre-Creation when the Universe was still null (perhaps comparable to the net-zero=neutral potential state of Prakriti) and the cosmos was in disorder; manifesting into the first of the Taoist Trinity, YuánshàTiÃÂnzà «n. YuánshàTiÃÂnzà «n oversees the earliest phase of Creation of the Universe, and is henceforth known as DàobÃÆo (éÂâ寶) "Treasure of the Tao". In One produces Two - Taiji produces Yin Yang, Yuanshi Tianzun manifests into Lingbao Tianzun who separated the Yang from the Yin, the clear from the murky, and classified the elements into their rightful groups. Therefore, he is also known as JëngbÃÆo (ç¶â寶) "Treasure of the Law/Scripture". While Jëng in popular understanding means "scriptures", in this context it also mean "passing through" [the phase of Creation] and the Laws of Nature of how things are meant to be. In the final phase of Creation, Daode Tianzun is manifested from LÃÂngbÃÆo TiÃÂnzà «n to bring civilization and preach the Law to all living beings. Therefore, He is also known as ShëbÃÆo (師寶) "Treasure of the Master".
Each of the Three Pure Ones represents both a deity and a heaven. Yuanshi tianzun rules the first heaven, Yu-Qing, which is found in the Jade Mountain. The entrance to this heaven is named the Golden Door. "He is the source of all truth, as the sun is the source of all light". Lingbao Tianzun rules over the heaven of Shang-Qing. Daode Tianzun rules over the heaven of Tai-Qing. The Three Pure Ones are often depicted as throned elders.
Schools of Taoist thought developed around each of these deities. Taoist Alchemy was a large part of these schools, as each of the Three Pure Ones represented one of the three essential fields of the body: jing, qi and shen. The congregation of all three Pure Ones resulted in the return to Tao.
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