And now the adherents of the reconstructed Lokayata/Charvaka movement have also started backprojecting themselves and this highly atheist group is - gasp - moreover trying to poach the exclusively VEDIC female Gods of the Vedic religion=Hindoo heathenism via backprojection. Watch it peddle Lokayata (=missionise) among Hindus by employing the usual technique, the Standard Operating Procedure (SOP) of all missionary ideologies: appropriation (else inculturation and encroachment).
A comment at
indiafacts.co.in/indias-daughter-and-richard-dawkins-racism/
(And typically there's not one response to such nonsense as the above from a single person commenting away at the indiafacts site. No wonder Buddhists and Jains from long ago down to modern aliens of the present have been running away with all things Hindoo too.)
Note the typically deceptive use of "our" - pretending to start from a position of commonality in order to take the gullibles to his deranged conclusions - in the above entity's use of "our Vedic" (dubbed "Brahmanical" another tell-tale sign of a missionary of a competing replacement ideology: refuses to recognise the Hindoo laity. Shamanism is also a misnomer as it is no less the religion of the majority, who are Not shamans.)
But, as anyone with half a brain can see,
Lokayata=another replacement ideology.
This was already evident when the early adherents backprojected themselves and subverted the ancestral heathenism of the subcontinent (i.e. Vedic religion) by encroaching on Brihaspati and twisting Vedic narratives related to him for the purpose of cloning him into a mouthpiece to pour their Lokayata doctrines from. As with all missionary/fraudulent ideologies, it could only work on the gullibles.
But people aren't going to continue to expect Hindoos to pretend the various Indic movements - all still competing with the ancestral heathenism - are all "Hindus together" anymore, right? When every other one is a missionary ideology intent on replacement and continues to stoop to poaching to do it.
But this is a new hysteria. I mean, just look at the desperate opportunism of modern adherents of this non-spiritual atheist school in pathetically groping at heathen Vedic Gods to appeal to the heathen masses of the ancestral (=Vedic) religion.
It's disgustingly vile.
And anyone who wants to argue that Lokayata was "logical", the proof is in the above stupidity. (And in the tendencies to lie, which are seen in all the nouveau=missionary Indic ideologies, which often behaved as compulsive liars in their desperation, thereby undoing any use their religions might have had.) But logic implies consistency with its own predicates at minimum (not necessarily consistent with the actual world, since such logic would be truth moreover). When materialist atheists suddenly start pretending their atheist religion is actually the original religion in which the Goddessses were worshipped, that's just self-inconsistency, which is the most basic case of all of Illogic. Yet that is the extent that missionaries would stoop to: to such blatant self-inconsistency/ill-logic as to be noticeable even to themselves. But they're just so desperate for converts (as seen in the obvious overtures in the blockquote above) that such sacrifices are nothing compared to gaining converts out of ancestral heathenism and into a new-agily-reconstructed Lokayata.
Apparently modern wannabe revivers of Lokayata can't even properly channel the dead ideology that they've replaced their actual ancestral religion with*, but have to be so new-age in fact that they will pull a neo-paganism/wicca by declaring that their religion [magically] owns the exclusively-Vedic Goddesses, and are starting to moreover pretend - also like typical neo-pagans/wiccans - that Goddesses could ever make sense without their male counterparts (just as vice-versa does not hold). But that false step is another indication in the lie of the above commenter: the religion that has both the female AND the male Gods in the only sensible configuration - i.e. male deities don't exist without their female counterpart and vice-versa, or at least, no pantheon without an abundance of both kinds - must be the original. And everything else is of modern invention (like James Cameron's religion for Pandora).
* The ancestral religion of these modern Lokayata peddlers (probably dravoodianists else communists in disguise) can't be of the charvaka school, because it extincted long ago. Just like India's suddenly Bauddhified (most of whom can't do Buddhism right, e.g. Arun Shourie), these are merely wannabe converts to the Lokayata school who can't do this ideology properly either.
Next the moronic modern new-ageists dabbling badly in the Charvaka school will declare that the Lokayata preceded the Vedas and gave rise to Vedic Mantras and Tantra.
Oh, here you go, speculative theories backprojecting Lokayata for just this very purpose (the internet has an example of every idiocy I can think up):
videshisutra.com/2013/11/15/hidden-lokayata-ii-proto-materialism-in-vedic-and-tantric-traditions/
From a blog called "Videshi Sutra - Heterodox Writings on South Asia"
(Um, Indians suddenly claiming to reconstruct Ajeevika religion have declared - via backprojection - that "magic" was originally Ajeevika. Maybe the reconstructionists of both can do a celebrity death match to determine who is right and who is dead?)
But I'm sure there are enough fools to fall for the link above too and to whom such speculations will appeal and will assume the tone of truth.
After all, there's already people - on fire for "Hindu" nationalism - who fell for Buddhist, Jain and even the even-more-recently invented Dravoodian and christian backprojections. So why not the Lokayata kind? Right? And all subversions away from ancestral heathenism come down to the same thing in the end: de-heathenisation. You're either a heathen or you're not. You can either be subverted or not. It's really as simple as a binary value.
Bah. Replacement ideologies=unheathenism. They all become so desperate when they eventually realise that heathenisms - i.e. Gods based religions - are the most ancient = ancestral religions of native populations and that that is what attracts all people (Europeans returning to their ancestral religions included), that eventually all the replacement ideologies start going against their most basic tenets by resorting to poaching on heathenism in their utter desperation. But that's just more proof of false religion/ideology.
[And this last really goes without saying. Yet, to state matter-of-factly - though I don't have to prove this (Experts have got it from the Primary Sources <- ooh, double meaning):
the Hindoo Goddesses are *known* to absolutely hate Lokayata. <- Fact. Which is more proof about which religion originally had the Vedic Gods/Goddesses and which religion didn't.
Not a single adherent of Lokayata would ever have seen a single Goddess of any sort, let alone the Vedic ones. But try try again.
Morons. Attempting to peddle Lokayata wouldn't concern me. But backprojection, encroachment, appropriation of the female Hindoo Gods in peddlers' attempts to replace Vedic religion - now that is just an invitation to lampoon said peddlers for their utter debile-ness.]
In time, there will appear (not here) a barrage of articles defending the sudden magic Right of Charvaka followers to claim the Hindu pantheon equally for their late ideology. But then, any such arguments may and should be equally applied to christianism poaching on Hindu religion. Surely, what's good for the goose is good for the gander?
But Hindoo theology - i.e. all things concerning the Hindoo Gods, including Hindoo cosmology (which is specifically theist) - belongs exclusively to Hindoo heathenism hence to Hindoos.
Not to atheists of older Indic ideologies or even modern non-affiliated Indian atheists. Nor to people of the other competing=missionary ideologies.
This is the *very* part of Hindoo religion - its core - that does Not belong to "all things Indian". -> Belongs exclusively to Hindoos = Hindoo heathens= "polytheistic idolators" onlee.
"Sorry".
I have seen even modern Indian atheists try to pretend they have any (forget equal) claim on Hindoo theology and moorties and Gods. The gall. They even take credit for the theistic-heathen insights of theistic=heathen Hindoos via the "our common ancestors" excuse. What a joke.
Hindoo heathen ancestors are not affiliated to de-heathenised. No more than Indian christians can pretend the insights and accomplishments of ancient Hindoos=heathens via genetic kinship. Genetic relationship means nothing and less than nothing. All de-heathenisation - whether into christianism, say, or merely into plain atheism - are from the heathen POV the same: they're all people who exited. Why or how or for what reason is irrelevant to the fact of that statement. They're simply no longer Hindoo=heathen and hence have 0 rights to claim Hindoo heathenism or pretend to have access to Hindoo religion as common "heritage" (equivalent to turning temples into tourist centres), be it making claims to so-called "art" (e.g. moortie fashioning) and "architecture" (temples) or "insights" (Hindoo hyper-theistic cosmology). Yet these are the very things that are hyper-theistic and could never have been accomplished by de-heathenised.** So how does any of it belong to the deheathenised at all? They should stick to what belongs to them.* And be consistent.
* I don't mind atheists parroting my arguments - even verbatim: they do it all the time. Western atheist colleagues regularly borrow my statements - often requesting my permission - and quote me down to identical phrasing. It's fine. Why would I speak on such important matters to them if it were not to help arm them against the christianism that is terrorising them too.
But all things Hindoo heathenism belong exclusively to Hindoos. All which is heathen belongs exclusively to heathens. These things are non-shareable. There are no two ways about this. These are the very things that missionary ideologies or even non-ideologies (i.e. plain vanilla atheism) have no right to, because these things specifically do not concern them and never will. Whether persons are foreign or native is irrelevant in this; what matters is that they're not of the native heathenism.
** E.g. Hindoo theistic cosmology was specifically rejected by Indic non-theists. And, what's more, could never have been conceived by non-theists. (In fact, the Hindoos did not claim to conceive of it: they were granted the perception. That is why ancient Hindoos -just like Taoists- knew certain aspects of the state of the universe, for instance, that they simply did not have the instruments to discover, let alone to gauge or verify them. And they did not pretend to have "discovered" it. Even today the same perceptions continue to be granted to Hindoos - and the Taoists, let's not forget - by the Gods. And by the very same means as of old.)
A comment at
indiafacts.co.in/indias-daughter-and-richard-dawkins-racism/
Quote:viswag59 ââ¬Â¢ 7 days ago
As usual, a very well argued and well written article by Venkat. Brings out his sharp polemical style. However, it detracts us from the main issue.
While Venkat is right in painting and maintaining a broader picture of misogyny that engulfs Indian, Western and other societies the only way for us Indians is to rise above everyone and prove ourselves non-misogynistic. Our Lokayata traditions (as opposed to the Vedic-Brahmanical traditions) were extremely reverend of the female. These Lokayata traditions are still discernible in our worshipping of Durga, Kali, Saraswati and Lakshmi, This
is the tradition we need to revive, revitalize and re-invigorate our 21st century Indian civilization. The question is: How do we do so?
This is the question that we have to ask ourselves.
Our goal is not to defend ourselves against the 'white' colonialists or racists but to demonstrate through our everyday action that we were and are better in accepting equal freedom for our mothers, sisters, daughters, and wives.
To answer that question, we need to first recognize and accept that misogyny is also an integral part of our Vedic-Brahmanical traditions. On the
contrary, (and to repeat) our Lokayata traditions are non-misogynistic and extremely reverend of the female. Again, let us ask ourselves: How do we revive our Lokayata traditions and revitalize the 21st century Indian civilization with our Lokayata traditions?
(And typically there's not one response to such nonsense as the above from a single person commenting away at the indiafacts site. No wonder Buddhists and Jains from long ago down to modern aliens of the present have been running away with all things Hindoo too.)
Note the typically deceptive use of "our" - pretending to start from a position of commonality in order to take the gullibles to his deranged conclusions - in the above entity's use of "our Vedic" (dubbed "Brahmanical" another tell-tale sign of a missionary of a competing replacement ideology: refuses to recognise the Hindoo laity. Shamanism is also a misnomer as it is no less the religion of the majority, who are Not shamans.)
But, as anyone with half a brain can see,
Lokayata=another replacement ideology.
This was already evident when the early adherents backprojected themselves and subverted the ancestral heathenism of the subcontinent (i.e. Vedic religion) by encroaching on Brihaspati and twisting Vedic narratives related to him for the purpose of cloning him into a mouthpiece to pour their Lokayata doctrines from. As with all missionary/fraudulent ideologies, it could only work on the gullibles.
But people aren't going to continue to expect Hindoos to pretend the various Indic movements - all still competing with the ancestral heathenism - are all "Hindus together" anymore, right? When every other one is a missionary ideology intent on replacement and continues to stoop to poaching to do it.
But this is a new hysteria. I mean, just look at the desperate opportunism of modern adherents of this non-spiritual atheist school in pathetically groping at heathen Vedic Gods to appeal to the heathen masses of the ancestral (=Vedic) religion.
It's disgustingly vile.
And anyone who wants to argue that Lokayata was "logical", the proof is in the above stupidity. (And in the tendencies to lie, which are seen in all the nouveau=missionary Indic ideologies, which often behaved as compulsive liars in their desperation, thereby undoing any use their religions might have had.) But logic implies consistency with its own predicates at minimum (not necessarily consistent with the actual world, since such logic would be truth moreover). When materialist atheists suddenly start pretending their atheist religion is actually the original religion in which the Goddessses were worshipped, that's just self-inconsistency, which is the most basic case of all of Illogic. Yet that is the extent that missionaries would stoop to: to such blatant self-inconsistency/ill-logic as to be noticeable even to themselves. But they're just so desperate for converts (as seen in the obvious overtures in the blockquote above) that such sacrifices are nothing compared to gaining converts out of ancestral heathenism and into a new-agily-reconstructed Lokayata.
Apparently modern wannabe revivers of Lokayata can't even properly channel the dead ideology that they've replaced their actual ancestral religion with*, but have to be so new-age in fact that they will pull a neo-paganism/wicca by declaring that their religion [magically] owns the exclusively-Vedic Goddesses, and are starting to moreover pretend - also like typical neo-pagans/wiccans - that Goddesses could ever make sense without their male counterparts (just as vice-versa does not hold). But that false step is another indication in the lie of the above commenter: the religion that has both the female AND the male Gods in the only sensible configuration - i.e. male deities don't exist without their female counterpart and vice-versa, or at least, no pantheon without an abundance of both kinds - must be the original. And everything else is of modern invention (like James Cameron's religion for Pandora).
* The ancestral religion of these modern Lokayata peddlers (probably dravoodianists else communists in disguise) can't be of the charvaka school, because it extincted long ago. Just like India's suddenly Bauddhified (most of whom can't do Buddhism right, e.g. Arun Shourie), these are merely wannabe converts to the Lokayata school who can't do this ideology properly either.
Next the moronic modern new-ageists dabbling badly in the Charvaka school will declare that the Lokayata preceded the Vedas and gave rise to Vedic Mantras and Tantra.
Oh, here you go, speculative theories backprojecting Lokayata for just this very purpose (the internet has an example of every idiocy I can think up):
videshisutra.com/2013/11/15/hidden-lokayata-ii-proto-materialism-in-vedic-and-tantric-traditions/
From a blog called "Videshi Sutra - Heterodox Writings on South Asia"
(Um, Indians suddenly claiming to reconstruct Ajeevika religion have declared - via backprojection - that "magic" was originally Ajeevika. Maybe the reconstructionists of both can do a celebrity death match to determine who is right and who is dead?)
But I'm sure there are enough fools to fall for the link above too and to whom such speculations will appeal and will assume the tone of truth.
After all, there's already people - on fire for "Hindu" nationalism - who fell for Buddhist, Jain and even the even-more-recently invented Dravoodian and christian backprojections. So why not the Lokayata kind? Right? And all subversions away from ancestral heathenism come down to the same thing in the end: de-heathenisation. You're either a heathen or you're not. You can either be subverted or not. It's really as simple as a binary value.
Bah. Replacement ideologies=unheathenism. They all become so desperate when they eventually realise that heathenisms - i.e. Gods based religions - are the most ancient = ancestral religions of native populations and that that is what attracts all people (Europeans returning to their ancestral religions included), that eventually all the replacement ideologies start going against their most basic tenets by resorting to poaching on heathenism in their utter desperation. But that's just more proof of false religion/ideology.
[And this last really goes without saying. Yet, to state matter-of-factly - though I don't have to prove this (Experts have got it from the Primary Sources <- ooh, double meaning):
the Hindoo Goddesses are *known* to absolutely hate Lokayata. <- Fact. Which is more proof about which religion originally had the Vedic Gods/Goddesses and which religion didn't.
Not a single adherent of Lokayata would ever have seen a single Goddess of any sort, let alone the Vedic ones. But try try again.
Morons. Attempting to peddle Lokayata wouldn't concern me. But backprojection, encroachment, appropriation of the female Hindoo Gods in peddlers' attempts to replace Vedic religion - now that is just an invitation to lampoon said peddlers for their utter debile-ness.]
In time, there will appear (not here) a barrage of articles defending the sudden magic Right of Charvaka followers to claim the Hindu pantheon equally for their late ideology. But then, any such arguments may and should be equally applied to christianism poaching on Hindu religion. Surely, what's good for the goose is good for the gander?
But Hindoo theology - i.e. all things concerning the Hindoo Gods, including Hindoo cosmology (which is specifically theist) - belongs exclusively to Hindoo heathenism hence to Hindoos.
Not to atheists of older Indic ideologies or even modern non-affiliated Indian atheists. Nor to people of the other competing=missionary ideologies.
This is the *very* part of Hindoo religion - its core - that does Not belong to "all things Indian". -> Belongs exclusively to Hindoos = Hindoo heathens= "polytheistic idolators" onlee.
"Sorry".
I have seen even modern Indian atheists try to pretend they have any (forget equal) claim on Hindoo theology and moorties and Gods. The gall. They even take credit for the theistic-heathen insights of theistic=heathen Hindoos via the "our common ancestors" excuse. What a joke.
Hindoo heathen ancestors are not affiliated to de-heathenised. No more than Indian christians can pretend the insights and accomplishments of ancient Hindoos=heathens via genetic kinship. Genetic relationship means nothing and less than nothing. All de-heathenisation - whether into christianism, say, or merely into plain atheism - are from the heathen POV the same: they're all people who exited. Why or how or for what reason is irrelevant to the fact of that statement. They're simply no longer Hindoo=heathen and hence have 0 rights to claim Hindoo heathenism or pretend to have access to Hindoo religion as common "heritage" (equivalent to turning temples into tourist centres), be it making claims to so-called "art" (e.g. moortie fashioning) and "architecture" (temples) or "insights" (Hindoo hyper-theistic cosmology). Yet these are the very things that are hyper-theistic and could never have been accomplished by de-heathenised.** So how does any of it belong to the deheathenised at all? They should stick to what belongs to them.* And be consistent.
* I don't mind atheists parroting my arguments - even verbatim: they do it all the time. Western atheist colleagues regularly borrow my statements - often requesting my permission - and quote me down to identical phrasing. It's fine. Why would I speak on such important matters to them if it were not to help arm them against the christianism that is terrorising them too.
But all things Hindoo heathenism belong exclusively to Hindoos. All which is heathen belongs exclusively to heathens. These things are non-shareable. There are no two ways about this. These are the very things that missionary ideologies or even non-ideologies (i.e. plain vanilla atheism) have no right to, because these things specifically do not concern them and never will. Whether persons are foreign or native is irrelevant in this; what matters is that they're not of the native heathenism.
** E.g. Hindoo theistic cosmology was specifically rejected by Indic non-theists. And, what's more, could never have been conceived by non-theists. (In fact, the Hindoos did not claim to conceive of it: they were granted the perception. That is why ancient Hindoos -just like Taoists- knew certain aspects of the state of the universe, for instance, that they simply did not have the instruments to discover, let alone to gauge or verify them. And they did not pretend to have "discovered" it. Even today the same perceptions continue to be granted to Hindoos - and the Taoists, let's not forget - by the Gods. And by the very same means as of old.)