Loose ends.
1. Noticed self-deluded Indian nationalists keep referring to Yezidis as being "pagans", which is considered an insult by Yezidis themselves, who disapprove of paganism. The following is one of many examples where Yezidis affirm this view:
wildhunt.org/2014/09/in-the-crosshairs-of-persecution-the-yezidi.html
Darwesh above is repeating a consistently vocalised Yezidi view on all 3 points.
2. Related to post 151 and onward about some comments at the Vijayvaani link (vijayvaani.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?aid=3250)
Where "shaastra sevaka" wrote in response to (the in other ways wrong) Vijaya Rajiva:
Concerning the bold blue bit stated by 'shaastra sevaka':
Finally located the audio evidence about how in TN at least it is established Hindoo tradition that Murugan [=Skanda] is indeed one of the Shanmatham. (Knew I had it somewhere but was too lazy to track it down before and so didn't want to mention it earlier without immediate supporting evidence at hand.)
In defence of the Shankara Matham's traditions in TN, here is an audio excerpt of Sri Jayendra Saraswati Swami, senior Shankaracharya of the Kanchi Matham. The 20 second audio may be in Tamil, but any native Hindoo speaker can make out that he is speaking of the Shanmatham and directly brings up -in this very context- the list of names of Ganapati, Murugan [=Guha], Shivan, Ambaal (i.e. Ambaa=Devi), Suryan, [ADDED: oversight but surely self-evident] Vishnu=Narayana.
https://www.sendspace.com/file/kqwtk0
mp3, 334 kB, 20 second excerpt (=just the relevant bit)
The source: Track 01 - introductory speech of the Shankaracharya Sri Jayendra Saraswati Swami of Kanchi Matham - of a carnatic Ganapati album (containing stotras and carnatic kritis to Bhagavaan Ganapati in Skt and Tamizh, at least one of the tracks is a very rare mantram not available on the visible internet) recorded for a Hindu charity under the auspices of the Kanchi Matham (a Shankaracharya Matham in TN). The album is from the age of the "tape cassettes". More I will not say. Digitised some years ago (personal collection). Excerpted as above. I would never choose to share any part of it here obviously, except that I needed it as supporting data.
Point:
So while I have no doubt that the Dwaraka Shankaracharya is [also] completely right in saying (repeat from his interview excerpted in post 151):
"Adi Shankara was a great exponent of Vedic Sanatana Dharma. God, he taught, is grouped into six forms. He preached six types - five based on forms of God like Shiva, Shakti, Vishnu, etc. and one, Nirakar, without form."
I just wanted to submit the proof that shaastra sevaka challenged Vijaya Rajeeva for: "go and check with someone rooted in a tradition".*
=> That Sri Jayendra Saraswati heading the Kanchi Matham is very much rooted in Adi Shankaracharya's tradition. And that he - not the only traditional Hindoo in TN either - includes Murugan in Shankara's Shanmatam listing at least**, as is evident in the audio excerpt. (In the original, uncut audio-track this Acharya proceeds to understandably talk more about Ganapati in particular, since the album is in praise of Him.)
[** ADDED: Just to be clear. Murugan=Skanda's not included in the panchaayatana worship, which is quite as stated by Shaastra Sevaka. But as ShS was specifically responding to a statement by Rajiva on the 6 Gods listed under Shanmatam, it is important to mention that Murugan is included in that 2nd list - at least in TN - because the unfortunate impression given by ShS' response was that Murugan was not generally included by Adi Shankara, though what was [presumably] meant by ShS was that Murugan/Skanda is merely not included in the smaller subset of 5. And hence Dwaraka Shankaracharya does not always need to make explicit mention of Skanda in order to nevertheless endorse Skanda as supremely worshipful to the Hindoos.]
Also, as per southern traditions at least, Adi Shankaracharya composed that great pearl known as the bhujangam on Murugan at Tiruchendur. Of course, the same traditions hold that Adi Shankaracharya also composed a famous aShTakam on the Mother of all the Hindoos, Gangaa Amman. So this does not negate what the Dwaraka Shankaracharya said either. And as I recall, Dwaraka Shankaracharya - implicated by his own statements - holds his Mother River Gangaa as most sacred, worshipful and purifying, and was thus naturally irked by the Shirdi Sai Baba openly discouraging his Hindu followers from bathing in River Ganga Amman. See separate post above.
[Besides, Murugan (Kumaran) is IIRC one of the many vigrahas of the many Gods worshipped in the huge pooja area of Rishi Agastya's hermitage as per the Sri Valmeeki Ramayanam itself. So the Dwaraka Shankaracharya - contrary to the silly insinuations made against him by Vijaya Rajeeva - would *never* have denied that Murugan is legitimately worshipful in Vedic Religion and hence to the Hindoos.
Also, what TN vedabrahmanas whose kuladevam and ishtadevam is Ayyappa/Shaastaa state knowingly about him - that Dharmashaastaa IS the Ishwara of the Vedam (he factually is BTW, as all those who know him affirm, including Vedabrahmanas whose primary Gods are Shaastaa+Wives+Entire-Family) - is also stated of Murugan by those as knowledgeable about Murugan.
ADDED:
BTW, it seems to me highly likely that Dwaraka Shankaracharya would endorse Dharmashaastaa too, as Shaastaa is a hyper-Vedic God, not to mention the child of Vishnu-Mohini Amman and Shiva. In any case, Kanchi Matham very much includes Ayyappa worship. Not to mention that there is of course a very centrally important Dharmashaastaa moorti at Kanchi Kamakoti temple itself, which temple is closely associated with Adi Shankaracharya and the Kanchi Matham.
But for supporting evidence of Kanchi Matham's natural connection to and worship of Ayyappa, which really should go without saying, here's:
- Sri Jayendra Saraswati Swamigal at an Ayyappa/Dharmashaastaa temple in Delhi: ayyappatempledelhi.org/history/
- And a video titled "Sri Jayendra Saraswathi Visit to Ayunthumalai Ayyappa Trust" at youtube.com/watch?v=mTAp3Qc7XBc
The video description says: "Jayendra Saraswathi visited AAT on 20 Dec 2013 and took part in Ayyappa Pooja"
Of course he did, Ayyappa is a Supreme God of the Vedic religion, well known to the Hindoos of the region.
- And here's an example of a Kanchi Matham trained Kerala Vadyar - whose kuladevam appears to be Ayyappa going by his magnificent name Shasthrusarman Namboodiripad - presiding at yet another Ayyappa temple: see nerulayyappa.in/nerul_ayyappa_temple_thanthri.htm and airoliayyappatemple.org/thantri.html
(but Dharmashaastaa worship is of course very common among Smarta brahmanas in southern India).
Don't know why it even requires saying that Dharmashaastaa worship is very much a part of at least TN's Shankaracharya Matham. Since he is a famously Vedic God, an ancestral God of Tamil, Malayali and indeed all southern Hindoos, and actually an ancestral God of all ethnic HindOOs.]
To make it very clear, the audio is posted here solely in defence of a Hindoo view as being upheld by a recognised Shankaracharya: that Murugan is included in the Shanmatham shortlist by the Adi Shankaracharya. The audio is NOT uploaded in support of Vijaya Rajeeva whom I care not a tuppence for, for reasons that should already have been apparent in posts 151 and subsequent of this thread.
1. Noticed self-deluded Indian nationalists keep referring to Yezidis as being "pagans", which is considered an insult by Yezidis themselves, who disapprove of paganism. The following is one of many examples where Yezidis affirm this view:
wildhunt.org/2014/09/in-the-crosshairs-of-persecution-the-yezidi.html
Quote:The references to Adam and God are not coincidental according to Hatim Darwesh, a American-based Yezidis who maintains a Yezidi Facebook group. [...] While quick to say that he is not a "religious expert," Darwesh was clear on several points: God is the same being who is worshiped in Abrahamic faiths; the Peacock Angel is not any sort of devil and the Yezidi religion is definitely monotheistic. In addition, within Yezidi culture, he says that the term "pagan" is used as a pejorative and not a label they themselves would welcome.
Darwesh above is repeating a consistently vocalised Yezidi view on all 3 points.
2. Related to post 151 and onward about some comments at the Vijayvaani link (vijayvaani.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?aid=3250)
Where "shaastra sevaka" wrote in response to (the in other ways wrong) Vijaya Rajiva:
Quote:[Vijaya Rajiva:] "Adi Shankara should be the Dwaraka Shankaracharya's example. The shanmata includes 6 deities : Vishnu, Shiva, Devi, Surya, Ganapati, Skanda (Kartikeyan). The Dwaraka shankarachariar left out Skanda."
[Shaastra Sevaka:] This again arises from your lack of knowledge of Hindu tradition (a lack that you ascribe to others). The pancayatana worship as established by Adya Shankaracharya doesn't include Skanda (go and check with someone rooted in a tradition). So, all your rants against the present Shankaracharya have been just but hot air.
[...]
shaastra sevaka
July 06, 2014
Concerning the bold blue bit stated by 'shaastra sevaka':
Finally located the audio evidence about how in TN at least it is established Hindoo tradition that Murugan [=Skanda] is indeed one of the Shanmatham. (Knew I had it somewhere but was too lazy to track it down before and so didn't want to mention it earlier without immediate supporting evidence at hand.)
In defence of the Shankara Matham's traditions in TN, here is an audio excerpt of Sri Jayendra Saraswati Swami, senior Shankaracharya of the Kanchi Matham. The 20 second audio may be in Tamil, but any native Hindoo speaker can make out that he is speaking of the Shanmatham and directly brings up -in this very context- the list of names of Ganapati, Murugan [=Guha], Shivan, Ambaal (i.e. Ambaa=Devi), Suryan, [ADDED: oversight but surely self-evident] Vishnu=Narayana.
https://www.sendspace.com/file/kqwtk0
mp3, 334 kB, 20 second excerpt (=just the relevant bit)
The source: Track 01 - introductory speech of the Shankaracharya Sri Jayendra Saraswati Swami of Kanchi Matham - of a carnatic Ganapati album (containing stotras and carnatic kritis to Bhagavaan Ganapati in Skt and Tamizh, at least one of the tracks is a very rare mantram not available on the visible internet) recorded for a Hindu charity under the auspices of the Kanchi Matham (a Shankaracharya Matham in TN). The album is from the age of the "tape cassettes". More I will not say. Digitised some years ago (personal collection). Excerpted as above. I would never choose to share any part of it here obviously, except that I needed it as supporting data.
Point:
So while I have no doubt that the Dwaraka Shankaracharya is [also] completely right in saying (repeat from his interview excerpted in post 151):
"Adi Shankara was a great exponent of Vedic Sanatana Dharma. God, he taught, is grouped into six forms. He preached six types - five based on forms of God like Shiva, Shakti, Vishnu, etc. and one, Nirakar, without form."
I just wanted to submit the proof that shaastra sevaka challenged Vijaya Rajeeva for: "go and check with someone rooted in a tradition".*
=> That Sri Jayendra Saraswati heading the Kanchi Matham is very much rooted in Adi Shankaracharya's tradition. And that he - not the only traditional Hindoo in TN either - includes Murugan in Shankara's Shanmatam listing at least**, as is evident in the audio excerpt. (In the original, uncut audio-track this Acharya proceeds to understandably talk more about Ganapati in particular, since the album is in praise of Him.)
[** ADDED: Just to be clear. Murugan=Skanda's not included in the panchaayatana worship, which is quite as stated by Shaastra Sevaka. But as ShS was specifically responding to a statement by Rajiva on the 6 Gods listed under Shanmatam, it is important to mention that Murugan is included in that 2nd list - at least in TN - because the unfortunate impression given by ShS' response was that Murugan was not generally included by Adi Shankara, though what was [presumably] meant by ShS was that Murugan/Skanda is merely not included in the smaller subset of 5. And hence Dwaraka Shankaracharya does not always need to make explicit mention of Skanda in order to nevertheless endorse Skanda as supremely worshipful to the Hindoos.]
Also, as per southern traditions at least, Adi Shankaracharya composed that great pearl known as the bhujangam on Murugan at Tiruchendur. Of course, the same traditions hold that Adi Shankaracharya also composed a famous aShTakam on the Mother of all the Hindoos, Gangaa Amman. So this does not negate what the Dwaraka Shankaracharya said either. And as I recall, Dwaraka Shankaracharya - implicated by his own statements - holds his Mother River Gangaa as most sacred, worshipful and purifying, and was thus naturally irked by the Shirdi Sai Baba openly discouraging his Hindu followers from bathing in River Ganga Amman. See separate post above.
[Besides, Murugan (Kumaran) is IIRC one of the many vigrahas of the many Gods worshipped in the huge pooja area of Rishi Agastya's hermitage as per the Sri Valmeeki Ramayanam itself. So the Dwaraka Shankaracharya - contrary to the silly insinuations made against him by Vijaya Rajeeva - would *never* have denied that Murugan is legitimately worshipful in Vedic Religion and hence to the Hindoos.
Also, what TN vedabrahmanas whose kuladevam and ishtadevam is Ayyappa/Shaastaa state knowingly about him - that Dharmashaastaa IS the Ishwara of the Vedam (he factually is BTW, as all those who know him affirm, including Vedabrahmanas whose primary Gods are Shaastaa+Wives+Entire-Family) - is also stated of Murugan by those as knowledgeable about Murugan.
ADDED:
BTW, it seems to me highly likely that Dwaraka Shankaracharya would endorse Dharmashaastaa too, as Shaastaa is a hyper-Vedic God, not to mention the child of Vishnu-Mohini Amman and Shiva. In any case, Kanchi Matham very much includes Ayyappa worship. Not to mention that there is of course a very centrally important Dharmashaastaa moorti at Kanchi Kamakoti temple itself, which temple is closely associated with Adi Shankaracharya and the Kanchi Matham.
But for supporting evidence of Kanchi Matham's natural connection to and worship of Ayyappa, which really should go without saying, here's:
- Sri Jayendra Saraswati Swamigal at an Ayyappa/Dharmashaastaa temple in Delhi: ayyappatempledelhi.org/history/
- And a video titled "Sri Jayendra Saraswathi Visit to Ayunthumalai Ayyappa Trust" at youtube.com/watch?v=mTAp3Qc7XBc
The video description says: "Jayendra Saraswathi visited AAT on 20 Dec 2013 and took part in Ayyappa Pooja"
Of course he did, Ayyappa is a Supreme God of the Vedic religion, well known to the Hindoos of the region.
- And here's an example of a Kanchi Matham trained Kerala Vadyar - whose kuladevam appears to be Ayyappa going by his magnificent name Shasthrusarman Namboodiripad - presiding at yet another Ayyappa temple: see nerulayyappa.in/nerul_ayyappa_temple_thanthri.htm and airoliayyappatemple.org/thantri.html
(but Dharmashaastaa worship is of course very common among Smarta brahmanas in southern India).
Don't know why it even requires saying that Dharmashaastaa worship is very much a part of at least TN's Shankaracharya Matham. Since he is a famously Vedic God, an ancestral God of Tamil, Malayali and indeed all southern Hindoos, and actually an ancestral God of all ethnic HindOOs.]
To make it very clear, the audio is posted here solely in defence of a Hindoo view as being upheld by a recognised Shankaracharya: that Murugan is included in the Shanmatham shortlist by the Adi Shankaracharya. The audio is NOT uploaded in support of Vijaya Rajeeva whom I care not a tuppence for, for reasons that should already have been apparent in posts 151 and subsequent of this thread.