Forgot to make a correction to the following, based on completer information obtained since:
[quote name='Husky' date='01 September 2014 - 02:43 PM' timestamp='1409562331' post='117324']narrated a <5 min summary version of the Kumarasambhavam to yet another Chinese friend and she declared it was the most romantic thing she had ever heard. And I'm pretty much pathetic at telling kathas, so her appreciation is all owing to the innate attraction of the Kumarasambhavam. Further, despite not being religious, she had no issue with the Kumarasambhavam concerning the lives of Gods - whereas modern "Hindus" gawk at the notion of multiple Gods, unable to comprehend their own religion. Instead she found many commonalities with her own country's native religion that I had not known. So yes, E Asian heathens (and even non-religious E Asians) are entirely understanding of Hindu religion and have an automatic ability to appreciate it and respect it.[/quote]
As it turns out, the dear friend described above is a Taoist heathen after all. Based on 3 instances:
1. When I went to her home to eat the lunch she and her sister invited me for (they made exclusive vegetarian, just for me) her computer screensaver was the Taoist Trimoorti. I've known this fact for much longer, but did not conclude that they were heathens because a Taiwanese friend's family had huge statues of two very primary Taoist Gods but were themselves atheists and used it as mere art/Chinese culture. You know, the way some Indians treat the Nataraja vigraham.
2. But since then, my friend had described the festival where the Jade Emperor sends a heavenly God to visit all Taoist homes and make a report of the actions of each family for the year, so he can report this back to the Jade Emperor. The Jade Emperor himself then visits all the homes and dispenses the fruits of their karma. Uh, I mean: then the Jade Emperor (on his sacred birthday festival, which falls on the 9th day of the Chinese New Year) visits all the Taoist homes and rewards all with a subsequent year that is suited to their past year's actions.
The way my friend described the details of the above period of festivity/observance, she spoke literally of "That God will come into our homes <and record our actions for the past year>" and that the Jade Emperor will then be subsequently "welcomed into their homes on his birthday", for which her family just as those back home in China would make immense preparation.
That is, my good friend did NOT describe the above as if it were a mythology or some quaint festival, but as living religion: as her real Gods, truly coming to her home.
3. During this year's Deepavali festival, having heard that it was big among Indians, she asked me about some details. After I told her of it, she said that in her husband's home [and all his village/hometown] it was the tradition to light lamps all the way from outside the home (from the gates) into the home during a certain festival to a [male] God (the God of Prosperity I think it was, one of a famous triple of Taoist Gods: IIRC one of Prosperity, one of Longevity, and one of Blessings). The purpose was to actively welcome that God into their houses by lighting his way there. In return for her sharing, I told her that we had a prominent Goddess of Prosperity, though of course there is also Kubera etc. The larger point is that she intimated that it was her husband's living tradition and is still observed every year by his family back home.
4. At other times she has mentioned that various <Taoist traditions> were that of her people. In specific, when the famous Tao symbol once came up when googling, she said that that was her own people's tradition [i.e. Chinese people's tradition]. Once, when showing me images of the sites she had visited, I saw she had visited some famous Buddhist temples in China, but only as a tourist: she commented that Buddhism and later Christianism had been making lots of inroads in China over time, but that Taoism was actually their people's original, ancestral way, and she wished people would keep to their traditions more. She said Buddhism like Christianism was not native Chinese culture - though I already knew that - and asked about Buddhism whether it came from India (which she already knew, but she was guarded and didn't want to insinuate that it must have come from India). After swallowing painfully and confirming it - i.e. indirectly confirming that my people, Indians, set Buddhism on her country's Taoist identity - (blaming Nepal won't make a difference as they're ethnically Indian too), she then asked me what India's original traditions were. I said it was different [from Buddhism] and far more akin to her own. She said that Indians should keep to their tradition and not let it go. Wistfully agreed, but said there was nothing I could do about changes taking place. But I got the notion on several occasions that she's sad about changes taking place in her world too.
On other occasions where I broached the subject of Confucianism, she said that that was a boon for Chinese governments to manage the population. I suggested it may be the way the communist government had projected Confucianism, but she said historical Chinese emperors had used it in much the same manner.
Usually we talk about issues regarding preservation of native language and 'culture' and 'cultural values', and she has tons of insightful observations. She introspects a lot and often mulls the growing problems facing her society. Already got the feeling that she was quite guarded about religion in China, as she was originally very careful with her choice of words when referring to Gods. Eventually, over the past years, she opened up more and more until on some occasions she essentially (unmistakably) spoke of them as being Gods of her living tradition and evidently real to her family and that of her husband.
Am always floored at how well Taoists keep their heathenism hidden, sounding more atheist than myself (at least in their presence). Had noticed earlier that Taoists, especially with priests in their families/mini-temples in their homes, only openly revealed their heathenism to me upon discovering that my own family was heathen (admittedly, I heedlessly blabbed to E Asians in younger days, but I am still willing to blab about India's heathenism in general to E Asians who seem non-opposed to "paganism", as I had done to the above-described friend, though I don't immediately admit to being of a heathen family myself). But I confess that no matter how often it happens that I discover Chinese/Taiwanese friends to have been fellow heathens all along, it takes me by surprise. I mean, in every case, I have known all these individuals well for years - or I think I know them well - before they suddenly spring this little 'detail' on me; and it's not like it's an afterthought in their private lives either: they religiously observe their festival-rites and are very serious about taking their Gods as real.
Every time I fall for their semblance of being non-religious. Where Chinese individuals are clearly atheist - such as speaking of narratives of Gods as mere fairy stories - I don't have doubts. But others seemed more subtly but nevertheless atheist too (but weren't ultimately) as they never mentioned the heathen dimension to various important festivals until I asked them in detail. I haven't detected a single pattern in the last to come up with any tests. It seems to take years and seems to require their own assessment of what they feel they can tell me/how much they think I will understand or accept what they are. So wonder if I'll ever guess correctly beforehand. But I've learnt one useful lesson from the observation: Hindoo NRIs should take an example from the way Taoists living abroad keep their religions very private. Ironically, have become very private vis-a-vis other Indians now, always immediately assuming they are unheathens, perhaps even christoislamics, until I see proof in them first of their heathenism. Sad effect of become wiser and more aware, including of how not everyone who has a Hindu name is a Hindu (can be a cryptochristo) and how not everyone who calls themselves a Hindu is a heathen. Feel more at ease at opening up on the subject with new E Asian acquaintances than new Indian Hindu-origin acquaintances living abroad. The day may come when the same becomes the case within India. Heathen matters that I'd think nothing of of blurting out to Taoist friends, I would not even dare to mention anonymously on any Indian Hindu nationalist web space, and prefer alluding to 3rd party views (or non-Indic heathens, like Hellenes) to indirectly make the arguments I want advanced for Hindoo heathenism. And I now simply assume - and there's no evidence to the contrary to change this - that every 'Hindu nationalist' online will have Elst class arguments/views, or will acquire such novel views in time. Specifically, I just assume everyone is subvertible, and mistrust them.
Thank the Gods for the Taoists.
This post was actually on how it turned out that the following Chinese person (and her family) - who I thought I knew, and for some years too, being a dear friend - had turned out to not be non-religious, but to be a Taoist heathen after all:
[quote name='Husky' date='01 September 2014 - 02:43 PM' timestamp='1409562331' post='117324']narrated a <5 min summary version of the Kumarasambhavam to yet another Chinese friend and she declared it was the most romantic thing she had ever heard. And I'm pretty much pathetic at telling kathas, so her appreciation is all owing to the innate attraction of the Kumarasambhavam. Further, despite not being religious, she had no issue with the Kumarasambhavam concerning the lives of Gods - whereas modern "Hindus" gawk at the notion of multiple Gods, unable to comprehend their own religion. Instead she found many commonalities with her own country's native religion that I had not known. So yes, E Asian heathens (and even non-religious E Asians) are entirely understanding of Hindu religion and have an automatic ability to appreciate it and respect it.[/quote]
Can't say I will love her more for it - as I don't think I can love her or her sister more than I already do (their friendship has crept up unawares over the years, such that I consider them quite family) - but may feel even more comfortable speaking to her on heathen matters, since I know she understands, and now also know she does so first-hand and hence at a deeper level, from a position of heathen affinity rather than mere cultural sympathy.
[quote name='Husky' date='01 September 2014 - 02:43 PM' timestamp='1409562331' post='117324']narrated a <5 min summary version of the Kumarasambhavam to yet another Chinese friend and she declared it was the most romantic thing she had ever heard. And I'm pretty much pathetic at telling kathas, so her appreciation is all owing to the innate attraction of the Kumarasambhavam. Further, despite not being religious, she had no issue with the Kumarasambhavam concerning the lives of Gods - whereas modern "Hindus" gawk at the notion of multiple Gods, unable to comprehend their own religion. Instead she found many commonalities with her own country's native religion that I had not known. So yes, E Asian heathens (and even non-religious E Asians) are entirely understanding of Hindu religion and have an automatic ability to appreciate it and respect it.[/quote]
As it turns out, the dear friend described above is a Taoist heathen after all. Based on 3 instances:
1. When I went to her home to eat the lunch she and her sister invited me for (they made exclusive vegetarian, just for me) her computer screensaver was the Taoist Trimoorti. I've known this fact for much longer, but did not conclude that they were heathens because a Taiwanese friend's family had huge statues of two very primary Taoist Gods but were themselves atheists and used it as mere art/Chinese culture. You know, the way some Indians treat the Nataraja vigraham.
2. But since then, my friend had described the festival where the Jade Emperor sends a heavenly God to visit all Taoist homes and make a report of the actions of each family for the year, so he can report this back to the Jade Emperor. The Jade Emperor himself then visits all the homes and dispenses the fruits of their karma. Uh, I mean: then the Jade Emperor (on his sacred birthday festival, which falls on the 9th day of the Chinese New Year) visits all the Taoist homes and rewards all with a subsequent year that is suited to their past year's actions.
The way my friend described the details of the above period of festivity/observance, she spoke literally of "That God will come into our homes <and record our actions for the past year>" and that the Jade Emperor will then be subsequently "welcomed into their homes on his birthday", for which her family just as those back home in China would make immense preparation.
That is, my good friend did NOT describe the above as if it were a mythology or some quaint festival, but as living religion: as her real Gods, truly coming to her home.
3. During this year's Deepavali festival, having heard that it was big among Indians, she asked me about some details. After I told her of it, she said that in her husband's home [and all his village/hometown] it was the tradition to light lamps all the way from outside the home (from the gates) into the home during a certain festival to a [male] God (the God of Prosperity I think it was, one of a famous triple of Taoist Gods: IIRC one of Prosperity, one of Longevity, and one of Blessings). The purpose was to actively welcome that God into their houses by lighting his way there. In return for her sharing, I told her that we had a prominent Goddess of Prosperity, though of course there is also Kubera etc. The larger point is that she intimated that it was her husband's living tradition and is still observed every year by his family back home.
4. At other times she has mentioned that various <Taoist traditions> were that of her people. In specific, when the famous Tao symbol once came up when googling, she said that that was her own people's tradition [i.e. Chinese people's tradition]. Once, when showing me images of the sites she had visited, I saw she had visited some famous Buddhist temples in China, but only as a tourist: she commented that Buddhism and later Christianism had been making lots of inroads in China over time, but that Taoism was actually their people's original, ancestral way, and she wished people would keep to their traditions more. She said Buddhism like Christianism was not native Chinese culture - though I already knew that - and asked about Buddhism whether it came from India (which she already knew, but she was guarded and didn't want to insinuate that it must have come from India). After swallowing painfully and confirming it - i.e. indirectly confirming that my people, Indians, set Buddhism on her country's Taoist identity - (blaming Nepal won't make a difference as they're ethnically Indian too), she then asked me what India's original traditions were. I said it was different [from Buddhism] and far more akin to her own. She said that Indians should keep to their tradition and not let it go. Wistfully agreed, but said there was nothing I could do about changes taking place. But I got the notion on several occasions that she's sad about changes taking place in her world too.
On other occasions where I broached the subject of Confucianism, she said that that was a boon for Chinese governments to manage the population. I suggested it may be the way the communist government had projected Confucianism, but she said historical Chinese emperors had used it in much the same manner.
Usually we talk about issues regarding preservation of native language and 'culture' and 'cultural values', and she has tons of insightful observations. She introspects a lot and often mulls the growing problems facing her society. Already got the feeling that she was quite guarded about religion in China, as she was originally very careful with her choice of words when referring to Gods. Eventually, over the past years, she opened up more and more until on some occasions she essentially (unmistakably) spoke of them as being Gods of her living tradition and evidently real to her family and that of her husband.
Am always floored at how well Taoists keep their heathenism hidden, sounding more atheist than myself (at least in their presence). Had noticed earlier that Taoists, especially with priests in their families/mini-temples in their homes, only openly revealed their heathenism to me upon discovering that my own family was heathen (admittedly, I heedlessly blabbed to E Asians in younger days, but I am still willing to blab about India's heathenism in general to E Asians who seem non-opposed to "paganism", as I had done to the above-described friend, though I don't immediately admit to being of a heathen family myself). But I confess that no matter how often it happens that I discover Chinese/Taiwanese friends to have been fellow heathens all along, it takes me by surprise. I mean, in every case, I have known all these individuals well for years - or I think I know them well - before they suddenly spring this little 'detail' on me; and it's not like it's an afterthought in their private lives either: they religiously observe their festival-rites and are very serious about taking their Gods as real.
Every time I fall for their semblance of being non-religious. Where Chinese individuals are clearly atheist - such as speaking of narratives of Gods as mere fairy stories - I don't have doubts. But others seemed more subtly but nevertheless atheist too (but weren't ultimately) as they never mentioned the heathen dimension to various important festivals until I asked them in detail. I haven't detected a single pattern in the last to come up with any tests. It seems to take years and seems to require their own assessment of what they feel they can tell me/how much they think I will understand or accept what they are. So wonder if I'll ever guess correctly beforehand. But I've learnt one useful lesson from the observation: Hindoo NRIs should take an example from the way Taoists living abroad keep their religions very private. Ironically, have become very private vis-a-vis other Indians now, always immediately assuming they are unheathens, perhaps even christoislamics, until I see proof in them first of their heathenism. Sad effect of become wiser and more aware, including of how not everyone who has a Hindu name is a Hindu (can be a cryptochristo) and how not everyone who calls themselves a Hindu is a heathen. Feel more at ease at opening up on the subject with new E Asian acquaintances than new Indian Hindu-origin acquaintances living abroad. The day may come when the same becomes the case within India. Heathen matters that I'd think nothing of of blurting out to Taoist friends, I would not even dare to mention anonymously on any Indian Hindu nationalist web space, and prefer alluding to 3rd party views (or non-Indic heathens, like Hellenes) to indirectly make the arguments I want advanced for Hindoo heathenism. And I now simply assume - and there's no evidence to the contrary to change this - that every 'Hindu nationalist' online will have Elst class arguments/views, or will acquire such novel views in time. Specifically, I just assume everyone is subvertible, and mistrust them.
Thank the Gods for the Taoists.
This post was actually on how it turned out that the following Chinese person (and her family) - who I thought I knew, and for some years too, being a dear friend - had turned out to not be non-religious, but to be a Taoist heathen after all:
[quote name='Husky' date='01 September 2014 - 02:43 PM' timestamp='1409562331' post='117324']narrated a <5 min summary version of the Kumarasambhavam to yet another Chinese friend and she declared it was the most romantic thing she had ever heard. And I'm pretty much pathetic at telling kathas, so her appreciation is all owing to the innate attraction of the Kumarasambhavam. Further, despite not being religious, she had no issue with the Kumarasambhavam concerning the lives of Gods - whereas modern "Hindus" gawk at the notion of multiple Gods, unable to comprehend their own religion. Instead she found many commonalities with her own country's native religion that I had not known. So yes, E Asian heathens (and even non-religious E Asians) are entirely understanding of Hindu religion and have an automatic ability to appreciate it and respect it.[/quote]
Can't say I will love her more for it - as I don't think I can love her or her sister more than I already do (their friendship has crept up unawares over the years, such that I consider them quite family) - but may feel even more comfortable speaking to her on heathen matters, since I know she understands, and now also know she does so first-hand and hence at a deeper level, from a position of heathen affinity rather than mere cultural sympathy.