Wait wait wait, so now there's doubt about the 2026 BCE date accorded to "first preserved" Sintashta chariot?
- Apparently the earlier date comes from dating the horse remains.
- A date of 400 years later is accorded when dating the artifacts at the burial site.
- Apparently no one has dated the "chariot" yet? Any reason why?
(As with the supposedly Dadhyanch burial: Is this too yet another case of people of different centuries burying different things, and which are then taken by modern archeologists as belonging together because they were dug up at the same site? Have to ask.)
touregypt.net/featurestories/chariots.htm
*** Yet in euro genetics "ra ra" forums, they re-posted the same image as above (the one labelled "A burial with warrior, horses and chariot... from China!") and declare it is of the Sintashta chariot + horse burial instead. Almost like mini-me versions of David Anthony and Victor Mair, forging evidence.
In any case, I know these "horse+chariot burials" as in the image were common in China. Mair insists they're C-Eurasian "Indo-Iranian" Europeans'* influence on China.
(* Defined as Europeans who spoke Indo-Iranian and not miscegenated with Indians.)
dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2032697/Trip-Zhou-Remains-horses-chariots-unearthed-3-000-year-old-Chinese-Dynastys-tomb.html
touregypt.net/featurestories/chariots.htm
This is obviously a lie:
touregypt.net/featurestories/chariots.htm
Obviously not true. Chariots on Standard of Ur (2500 BCE) do NOT have spoked wheels. Hence they're not considered "true chariots" (I didn't make the rules). In that case, can count IVC chariots as far earlier - also: they are indeed derived from (2 wheeled) utility wagons in the IVC too:
Look for the images that go with the following extract at
aryaninvasionmyth.wordpress.com/
Still can't find a pic of the Sintashta horse + chariot burial (or even of any Sintashta chariot) on Google images. Yet I keep finding pics of Chinese horse+chariot burial (supposed to be influenced by Persians in this, with whom the Chinese had close relations).
Anyway, returning to the supposed chariot in Sintashta:
touregypt.net/featurestories/chariots.htm
Auto-translated Russian wikipedia page on "Sintashta:
That means that the earlier dating - that of the horse bones - was used to conclude the chariot at the same site was from 2026 BCE. The haven't used the later date of the buried artifacts.
So, from the blue bit above:
Presumably true chariots in "middle-east" are dated to some year X.
- the horse bones next to steppe culture Sintashta's "true chariot" have been dated to 200 years before X
- artifacts at said Sintashta burial site date the chariot to 200 years after X
=> a difference of 400 years between the dates accorded to Sintashta chariot, where the earlier date is 2026 BCE.
So "Sintashta chariot" may just be from 1626 BCE. Or even later if they bothered to date the chariot itself instead of everything else around it.
A late date would makes sense too, if the chariot was actually of native steppe people's manufacture (rather than migrants), as steppe people weren't even riding horses in the steppes until late 2nd millennium BCE (i.e. just before 1000 BCE).
"More accurate radio-carbon testing required to settle dispute". Ya don't say.
So in other words: it may NOT be the oldest preserved chariot after all? Let alone the oldest chariot.
Why do they then shoot their mouth off?
Who's betting it's more of David Anthony's loony antics. Mair is another serial forger... So it could be him too. Unless forging, like oryanist storytelling, is a feature of all steppists?
Anyway if even horse-riding has NEVER been demonstrated in the steppes until the END of the 2nd millennium (i.e. a date closer to 1000 BCE than 2000 BCE) - who's betting that natives of the steppe hadn't got round to domesticating any horses to tie to their chariot yet at 2026 BCE?
aryaninvasionmyth.wordpress.com/
At least we know that if "Indo-European" invaders from the steppes were entering India - which Patterson and co. of the Haak et al Feb 2015 team admitted could not have happened (and Jones - who had worked on the Mathieson et al March 2015 - essentially repeated in this Jones et al July 2015) because Indic DNA can't be derived from steppe kulturs -
Anyway, back to the if statement, because it's just funny:
So pretend the steppe theory were still alive: imagine if "Indo-European" invaders from the steppes were invading India on their chariots in 1800 BCE, and Indics knocked them off their chariots using say a pole pushed between the spokes of their chariot wheels (:evil grin
, then when the stupid steppists' chariot is incapacitated, they can't rush off by mounting on their horse, because ... they hadn't learned to ride their horsies yet at 1800 BCE. (Meanwhile Hindus are known to have been riding horses in Pirak at 1800 calBCE - and actually earlier, but Pirak is admitted. So Hindus could have run off with the steppists' horses.)
How steppists learned to do other horsey stuff like chariot riding with horses I don't know, but it all seems pretty much like Sintashtans were an import into steppe space* if they did have chariots. Imported along with not only their R1aZ93; but curiously also that "Anatolian Neolithic" (farming) genetic component the Srubnaya and Sintashta entrants had, unseen in Yamna, with that last farming component only appearing in the steppe kulturs since Potapovka.
I'm pretty sure a culture that has horse-charioteers is a culture that would have known about horse-riding. Steppes did NOT know horse-riding at the dates given to Sintashta culture: 2100-1800 BCE time or long after. They never domesticated the steppe horse. Steppe had to import all their horses.
Sintashta culture if it had horse-drawn chariots was clearly intrusive into steppes.
For further details see Priyadarshi's site: aryaninvasionmyth.wordpress.com
The point of this post was several:
+ Sintashta "world's first preserved chariot" date of 2026 BCE is considered dubious as only horse bones and artefacts surrounding it have been dated, which have 400 years difference between them - with the earliest of the two dates chosen to present to the public, though the archaeologists don't agree. No idea if the chariot's own date will be different still, had it been dated.
Note: Sintashta's "chariot" is often even spouted as the world's oldest chariot, and the steppe was advertised as locus of chariot evolution. Non-spoked wheel chariots already seen in Sumeria at least around 2500 BCE and earlier in IVC (in the latter, the covered chariot in copper is not depicted with wheels at all - as if disassembled - so no idea if its matching wheels would have been spoked or not, but imagery that look like spoked wheels existed in Harappa seals - so can't rule out the possibility for IVC at least).
+ It is admitted even by IE-ists - e.g. Kuzmina of Steppe PIE theory and Renfew of Anatolian theory, see above - that not until the END of 2nd millennium BCE (e.g until 1200 or 1100 BCE or even later) is there even any evidence of horse-riding anywhere in the steppes. So no mounted warrior-horsemen nomads until then, as they themselves say.
+ Sintashta (2100-1800BCE) - assuming its inhabitants did have horse-drawn chariots (still can't find google images of their chariots, but I keep finding google images of Chinese horse+chariot burials) - Sintashtans would be imports to the steppe region, because I suspect horse-riding precedes having horse-drawn chariots. (I could be wrong?) But for a nomadic supposed "horse"-people I suspect this rule applies: that they'd learn to ride first before cooking up chariots.
+ Sintashtans have a genetic component dubbed "Anatolian Neolitic farmer" that was not seen in Yamna, but which started appearing among other steppe kulturs from Potapovka on. Seen in other steppe culture Srubna too. Further Sintashtans, just like Srubnaya inhabitants, suddenly had lots of R1aZ93 (very different from R1b-heavy Yamna etc. Poltavka had a sole R1az94 (a variant of R1az93), may be an early migrant/scout before the outposts started arriving. But otherwise Poltavka IIRC also R1b-heavy)
(CORRECTED: Horse bones at Sintashta chariot burial site - which I misremembered as being dated to 2060 BCE - corrected to 2026 BCE.)
- Apparently the earlier date comes from dating the horse remains.
- A date of 400 years later is accorded when dating the artifacts at the burial site.
- Apparently no one has dated the "chariot" yet? Any reason why?
(As with the supposedly Dadhyanch burial: Is this too yet another case of people of different centuries burying different things, and which are then taken by modern archeologists as belonging together because they were dug up at the same site? Have to ask.)
touregypt.net/featurestories/chariots.htm
Quote:A later development in Mesopotamia was a type of two-wheeled vehicle whose solitary occupant sat astride a central beam as if riding an animal. However, it is likely that the first true chariots were developed on the Eurasian steppes, as shown by the burials discovered along the border between Russia and Kazakhstan, although this is still the subject of scholarly debate.
[Image selection copies this text as caption:] A burial with warrior, horses and chariot... from China!
(Note: Oh so it's not a picture of Sintashta chariot burial. Can't find a single picture of the "true" chariot - i.e. with spoked wheels - from Sintashta. ***)
Radio-carbon dating of horse remains interred with chariots now indicates that this ancient grassland culture, called by archaeologists the Sintashta-Petrovka people, began using chariots around the beginning of the Middle Bronze period, two hundred years before the first evidence of Middle Eastern chariots. (Based on the style of the artifacts found at the burial sites, Russian researchers previous dated the Sintasta chariots to two centuries after the first evidence of chariot use in the Middle East. More accurate radio-carbon testing is required to settle this dispute.)
*** Yet in euro genetics "ra ra" forums, they re-posted the same image as above (the one labelled "A burial with warrior, horses and chariot... from China!") and declare it is of the Sintashta chariot + horse burial instead. Almost like mini-me versions of David Anthony and Victor Mair, forging evidence.
In any case, I know these "horse+chariot burials" as in the image were common in China. Mair insists they're C-Eurasian "Indo-Iranian" Europeans'* influence on China.
(* Defined as Europeans who spoke Indo-Iranian and not miscegenated with Indians.)
dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2032697/Trip-Zhou-Remains-horses-chariots-unearthed-3-000-year-old-Chinese-Dynastys-tomb.html
Quote:Trip to the Zhou: Remains of horses and chariots unearthed from tomb dating back to 3,000-year-old Chinese dynasty
By Daily Mail Reporter
Updated: 10:48 GMT, 2 September 2011
touregypt.net/featurestories/chariots.htm
Quote:The famous Sumerian "Standard of Ur" depicts this earliest form of military wagon with four wheels drawn by four asses or ass/onager hybrids, together with a driver and a warrior armed with spears and axes riding into battle over the corpses of the slain. In fact, Sir Leonard Woodlley uncovered several burials among the Royal Tombs of Ur where warriors and the kings were buried not only with their carts and wagons, but also with the draft animals and the driver!Sumeria, you know that place and time where only Indian-specific mtDNA was found?
This is obviously a lie:
touregypt.net/featurestories/chariots.htm
Quote:History
Chariots are the culmination of a natural technical evolution. In the Middle East, no sooner do we find evidence of utility wagons drawn by donkeys, mules, oxen and even goats, than we find these same primitive vehicles used in warfare. It was on the fertile plains of Mesopotamia and Anatolia that the precursor to the chariot was created.
Obviously not true. Chariots on Standard of Ur (2500 BCE) do NOT have spoked wheels. Hence they're not considered "true chariots" (I didn't make the rules). In that case, can count IVC chariots as far earlier - also: they are indeed derived from (2 wheeled) utility wagons in the IVC too:
Look for the images that go with the following extract at
aryaninvasionmyth.wordpress.com/
Quote:The historians have constantly denied the existence of chariot in India before 1500 BCE. A re-examination of the excavation (1920-21 and 1933-34) report of Harappa published by the British Government of India in 1940 reveals that the chariot appears in India at 3000 BCE at Harappa (Vats 1940:452), and may have been made for the first time there itself. Many chariot toys including a covered copper chariot model were found from that date (see figures below). The original uncovered chariot must have been made at least a thousand years earlier.
Still can't find a pic of the Sintashta horse + chariot burial (or even of any Sintashta chariot) on Google images. Yet I keep finding pics of Chinese horse+chariot burial (supposed to be influenced by Persians in this, with whom the Chinese had close relations).
Anyway, returning to the supposed chariot in Sintashta:
touregypt.net/featurestories/chariots.htm
Quote:Radio-carbon dating of horse remains interred with chariots now indicates that this ancient grassland culture, called by archaeologists the Sintashta-Petrovka people, began using chariots around the beginning of the Middle Bronze period, two hundred years before the first evidence of Middle Eastern chariots. (Based on the style of the artifacts found at the burial sites, Russian researchers previous dated the Sintasta chariots to two centuries after the first evidence of chariot use in the Middle East. More accurate radio-carbon testing is required to settle this dispute.)
Auto-translated Russian wikipedia page on "Sintashta:
Quote:On one of the sites (Crooked Lake) found chariots, dated the bones of a horse in 2026 year BC. e. Thus, Sintashta culture media used the first-preserved chariot in history (picture chariots Sumerian artifact known as The Standard Urschi, date from the middle of the 3rd millennium BC. E. [2]).
That means that the earlier dating - that of the horse bones - was used to conclude the chariot at the same site was from 2026 BCE. The haven't used the later date of the buried artifacts.
So, from the blue bit above:
Presumably true chariots in "middle-east" are dated to some year X.
- the horse bones next to steppe culture Sintashta's "true chariot" have been dated to 200 years before X
- artifacts at said Sintashta burial site date the chariot to 200 years after X
=> a difference of 400 years between the dates accorded to Sintashta chariot, where the earlier date is 2026 BCE.
So "Sintashta chariot" may just be from 1626 BCE. Or even later if they bothered to date the chariot itself instead of everything else around it.
A late date would makes sense too, if the chariot was actually of native steppe people's manufacture (rather than migrants), as steppe people weren't even riding horses in the steppes until late 2nd millennium BCE (i.e. just before 1000 BCE).
"More accurate radio-carbon testing required to settle dispute". Ya don't say.
So in other words: it may NOT be the oldest preserved chariot after all? Let alone the oldest chariot.
Why do they then shoot their mouth off?
Who's betting it's more of David Anthony's loony antics. Mair is another serial forger... So it could be him too. Unless forging, like oryanist storytelling, is a feature of all steppists?
Anyway if even horse-riding has NEVER been demonstrated in the steppes until the END of the 2nd millennium (i.e. a date closer to 1000 BCE than 2000 BCE) - who's betting that natives of the steppe hadn't got round to domesticating any horses to tie to their chariot yet at 2026 BCE?
aryaninvasionmyth.wordpress.com/
Quote:People have doubted the ââ¬ÅAIT dateââ¬Â of onset of riding (4200 BCE) and charioteering (2100 BCE). Archaeologist Renfrew (2000:44; quoted by Drews) wrote, ââ¬ÅThe mounted warrior nomad horseman does not make his appearance until the end of the second millenniumââ¬Â. Another prominent archaeologist who has been persistently researching the subject for long Kuzmina (2000:122, quoted by Drews:132) wrote ââ¬Åwarrior-horsemen appear in the steppe not in the fourth millennium BC but at the end of the second millennium BCââ¬Â.
At least we know that if "Indo-European" invaders from the steppes were entering India - which Patterson and co. of the Haak et al Feb 2015 team admitted could not have happened (and Jones - who had worked on the Mathieson et al March 2015 - essentially repeated in this Jones et al July 2015) because Indic DNA can't be derived from steppe kulturs -
Anyway, back to the if statement, because it's just funny:
So pretend the steppe theory were still alive: imagine if "Indo-European" invaders from the steppes were invading India on their chariots in 1800 BCE, and Indics knocked them off their chariots using say a pole pushed between the spokes of their chariot wheels (:evil grin
, then when the stupid steppists' chariot is incapacitated, they can't rush off by mounting on their horse, because ... they hadn't learned to ride their horsies yet at 1800 BCE. (Meanwhile Hindus are known to have been riding horses in Pirak at 1800 calBCE - and actually earlier, but Pirak is admitted. So Hindus could have run off with the steppists' horses.) How steppists learned to do other horsey stuff like chariot riding with horses I don't know, but it all seems pretty much like Sintashtans were an import into steppe space* if they did have chariots. Imported along with not only their R1aZ93; but curiously also that "Anatolian Neolithic" (farming) genetic component the Srubnaya and Sintashta entrants had, unseen in Yamna, with that last farming component only appearing in the steppe kulturs since Potapovka.
I'm pretty sure a culture that has horse-charioteers is a culture that would have known about horse-riding. Steppes did NOT know horse-riding at the dates given to Sintashta culture: 2100-1800 BCE time or long after. They never domesticated the steppe horse. Steppe had to import all their horses.
Sintashta culture if it had horse-drawn chariots was clearly intrusive into steppes.
For further details see Priyadarshi's site: aryaninvasionmyth.wordpress.com
The point of this post was several:
+ Sintashta "world's first preserved chariot" date of 2026 BCE is considered dubious as only horse bones and artefacts surrounding it have been dated, which have 400 years difference between them - with the earliest of the two dates chosen to present to the public, though the archaeologists don't agree. No idea if the chariot's own date will be different still, had it been dated.
Note: Sintashta's "chariot" is often even spouted as the world's oldest chariot, and the steppe was advertised as locus of chariot evolution. Non-spoked wheel chariots already seen in Sumeria at least around 2500 BCE and earlier in IVC (in the latter, the covered chariot in copper is not depicted with wheels at all - as if disassembled - so no idea if its matching wheels would have been spoked or not, but imagery that look like spoked wheels existed in Harappa seals - so can't rule out the possibility for IVC at least).
+ It is admitted even by IE-ists - e.g. Kuzmina of Steppe PIE theory and Renfew of Anatolian theory, see above - that not until the END of 2nd millennium BCE (e.g until 1200 or 1100 BCE or even later) is there even any evidence of horse-riding anywhere in the steppes. So no mounted warrior-horsemen nomads until then, as they themselves say.
+ Sintashta (2100-1800BCE) - assuming its inhabitants did have horse-drawn chariots (still can't find google images of their chariots, but I keep finding google images of Chinese horse+chariot burials) - Sintashtans would be imports to the steppe region, because I suspect horse-riding precedes having horse-drawn chariots. (I could be wrong?) But for a nomadic supposed "horse"-people I suspect this rule applies: that they'd learn to ride first before cooking up chariots.
+ Sintashtans have a genetic component dubbed "Anatolian Neolitic farmer" that was not seen in Yamna, but which started appearing among other steppe kulturs from Potapovka on. Seen in other steppe culture Srubna too. Further Sintashtans, just like Srubnaya inhabitants, suddenly had lots of R1aZ93 (very different from R1b-heavy Yamna etc. Poltavka had a sole R1az94 (a variant of R1az93), may be an early migrant/scout before the outposts started arriving. But otherwise Poltavka IIRC also R1b-heavy)
(CORRECTED: Horse bones at Sintashta chariot burial site - which I misremembered as being dated to 2060 BCE - corrected to 2026 BCE.)
Death to traitors.