07-18-2010, 07:11 PM
[quote name='Husky' date='18 July 2010 - 12:40 PM' timestamp='1279436542' post='107508']
f) Now don't make up absurdities.
[color="#0000FF"]INSERTED:[/color] You don't deserve to know, but I will write it anyway for any poor Hindoo out there who naturally felt slighted by such lame accusations like yours involving "despise" and other inanities.
To Shaivas, Vishnu is seen as an equal, and those that ultimately make no conscious distinction, see him as an extension of Shiva's very self (or vice-versa).
Confirmed by Shiva's name as Vishnuvallabha, and the consequent fact that Vishnu (like Uma) is seen as occupying half of Shiva (or vice-versa, or rather, since it is an equal half, Harihara is part Shiva part Vishnu). Other full-on Shaivas like Lingayats don't make any distinction in quality either, they merely primarily worship their kuladevam (in their case Shiva) like the rest of the Hindus do, but I know for a fact that they worship Vishnu too when the occasion comes and have seen them do so with great eagerness.
It is generally the norm, as far as I know, that Shiva Kovils be constructed with a Sannidhi for Vishnu, as also for various other Gods like Lakshmi, Saraswati, Hanuman, the Navagrahas, etc. (which is why the construction of Shiva Kovils therefore also requires it have a special area for the Navagrahas). And ShivagaNas and, in Tamizh Kovils, Nandikeshwara.
And Hindus who pray in Shiva Kovils do NOT think of the other Gods as servants of Shiva (other than Nandi and the gaNas), but eagerly go to see all the Gods' sannidhis and pray to them all, each time with only the God/Couple they're currently looking at in mind. Shiva requires all these Gods to be worshipped - not as some lesser entities to himself, but so that Hindus do not forget, even in a temple primarily dedicated to Shiva+wife, that there are many Gods (and also particular manifestations of these same Gods) that also deserve Hindus' worship - which is exactly why his Kovils generally must house all these Gods. It is as Shiva wants it.
Pooja to the Shivalingam is likewise considered to be pooja at once offered to the Trimoorti (and all their spouses, of course) and ultimately all the Hindu Gods of the cosmos, as they are all represented in the very form and construction of the Shiva Lingam itself (most noticeably the Trimoorti is represented, but not exclusively them). The Shiva Lingam is a concentrated form of the Shiva Kovil, which is a concentrated form of the Kosmos. So the Hindu whose kuladevam is Shiva, when he prays to a Shivalingam, is praying to Shiva+every other Hindu God too. This is both consciously and subconsciously so. Certainly, the prayers that are offered ultimately go to all the Gods. Which is why Shiva becomes so immensely pleased. A Shiva Lingam is Shiva. A Shiva Lingam is Shiva+Uma. A Shiva Lingam is the Trimoorti (their spouses automatically included). A Shivalingam is also All the Hindu Gods. A Shiva Lingam is a concentrated version of Everything.
You're just obviously ignorant of Hindu religion altogether.
Anyway, to the easiest question of them all:
Your If is theoretical.
Regardless: I always say that People (and modern movements) Who Have Never Seen* the Hindu Gods Should Shut Up about said Gods. (Well, it is the only reasonable thing to say.)
[* "seen": with which I obviously don't mean in a vision/in the mind's eye/while dreaming or even while meditating or other such cases where the evidence can be dubious.]
[/quote]
Now,it take me 5 minutes to recover from the shock.
But before jumping on my head you should know that i have some facts that you can check yourself .About 1000 years ago Ramanuja was exiled by the shaiva king because he was a vaishnava.I hope these are the exceptions and not the rule,but last year ,right on this forum, an old user(which seem to be shaiva) said that some shaiva could get angry on vaishnavas because of their believes.Thats sound like intolerance to me.
The shaiva views are variate and the believes about Shiva and Vishnu are different from place to place.So im not question what you say but this doesnt mean that all shaiva views are reflected in what you say.
Anyway ,is nothing new to me.Even vaishnavas belive that Shiva is an expansion of Vishnu or Krishna by case,or part of Vishnu.Even your hated iskonites believe this.
But even if shaivas will belive that Vishnu is a minor god or even lower than that ,this will not bother me.At most i could debate whit them to prove that im right and they are wrong.If they will win the debate ,i will show them my regards.Thats the healthy and morally correct way to deal whit the situation.But if i force(by violence ,bribe,tricks) them to believe what i believe that will be immoral and dictatorial.
I find the shaivas as natural allies against the real danger(christo-islamics).If you protect the unity ,i protect the difference.
f) Now don't make up absurdities.
[color="#0000FF"]INSERTED:[/color] You don't deserve to know, but I will write it anyway for any poor Hindoo out there who naturally felt slighted by such lame accusations like yours involving "despise" and other inanities.
To Shaivas, Vishnu is seen as an equal, and those that ultimately make no conscious distinction, see him as an extension of Shiva's very self (or vice-versa).
Confirmed by Shiva's name as Vishnuvallabha, and the consequent fact that Vishnu (like Uma) is seen as occupying half of Shiva (or vice-versa, or rather, since it is an equal half, Harihara is part Shiva part Vishnu). Other full-on Shaivas like Lingayats don't make any distinction in quality either, they merely primarily worship their kuladevam (in their case Shiva) like the rest of the Hindus do, but I know for a fact that they worship Vishnu too when the occasion comes and have seen them do so with great eagerness.
It is generally the norm, as far as I know, that Shiva Kovils be constructed with a Sannidhi for Vishnu, as also for various other Gods like Lakshmi, Saraswati, Hanuman, the Navagrahas, etc. (which is why the construction of Shiva Kovils therefore also requires it have a special area for the Navagrahas). And ShivagaNas and, in Tamizh Kovils, Nandikeshwara.
And Hindus who pray in Shiva Kovils do NOT think of the other Gods as servants of Shiva (other than Nandi and the gaNas), but eagerly go to see all the Gods' sannidhis and pray to them all, each time with only the God/Couple they're currently looking at in mind. Shiva requires all these Gods to be worshipped - not as some lesser entities to himself, but so that Hindus do not forget, even in a temple primarily dedicated to Shiva+wife, that there are many Gods (and also particular manifestations of these same Gods) that also deserve Hindus' worship - which is exactly why his Kovils generally must house all these Gods. It is as Shiva wants it.
Pooja to the Shivalingam is likewise considered to be pooja at once offered to the Trimoorti (and all their spouses, of course) and ultimately all the Hindu Gods of the cosmos, as they are all represented in the very form and construction of the Shiva Lingam itself (most noticeably the Trimoorti is represented, but not exclusively them). The Shiva Lingam is a concentrated form of the Shiva Kovil, which is a concentrated form of the Kosmos. So the Hindu whose kuladevam is Shiva, when he prays to a Shivalingam, is praying to Shiva+every other Hindu God too. This is both consciously and subconsciously so. Certainly, the prayers that are offered ultimately go to all the Gods. Which is why Shiva becomes so immensely pleased. A Shiva Lingam is Shiva. A Shiva Lingam is Shiva+Uma. A Shiva Lingam is the Trimoorti (their spouses automatically included). A Shivalingam is also All the Hindu Gods. A Shiva Lingam is a concentrated version of Everything.
You're just obviously ignorant of Hindu religion altogether.
Anyway, to the easiest question of them all:
Your If is theoretical.
Regardless: I always say that People (and modern movements) Who Have Never Seen* the Hindu Gods Should Shut Up about said Gods. (Well, it is the only reasonable thing to say.)
[* "seen": with which I obviously don't mean in a vision/in the mind's eye/while dreaming or even while meditating or other such cases where the evidence can be dubious.]
[/quote]
Now,it take me 5 minutes to recover from the shock.
But before jumping on my head you should know that i have some facts that you can check yourself .About 1000 years ago Ramanuja was exiled by the shaiva king because he was a vaishnava.I hope these are the exceptions and not the rule,but last year ,right on this forum, an old user(which seem to be shaiva) said that some shaiva could get angry on vaishnavas because of their believes.Thats sound like intolerance to me.
The shaiva views are variate and the believes about Shiva and Vishnu are different from place to place.So im not question what you say but this doesnt mean that all shaiva views are reflected in what you say.
Anyway ,is nothing new to me.Even vaishnavas belive that Shiva is an expansion of Vishnu or Krishna by case,or part of Vishnu.Even your hated iskonites believe this.
But even if shaivas will belive that Vishnu is a minor god or even lower than that ,this will not bother me.At most i could debate whit them to prove that im right and they are wrong.If they will win the debate ,i will show them my regards.Thats the healthy and morally correct way to deal whit the situation.But if i force(by violence ,bribe,tricks) them to believe what i believe that will be immoral and dictatorial.
I find the shaivas as natural allies against the real danger(christo-islamics).If you protect the unity ,i protect the difference.