Removing The Sheen From Buddhism

[Husky]

Post 22/?

(Related to the blockquote at the start of post 16)



And about the whole "Hindu bhakti was copied from 'Buddha-bhakti' " spin:



Now they're just digging a hole.



Forced to admit that visible forms of bhakti were copied from Hindu religion (even in Vijayavenugopal's example of Buddhist poetry copying Hindu stotra styles), Har Dayal and Vijayavenugopal resort to declaring that there are two aspects involved, and that the other aspect - the notion of bhakti itself, though not the expression thereof - was invented by Buddhism/Avalokiteshwara cult (Mahayana-isms), but that the nastikas borrowed the style of expression from Hindus.



How convenient.



Note how he transforms what is exclusively Hindu bhakti into a "Tamil bhakti tradition" in order to thereafter claim it for Buddhism. Now where have I seen this before. Oh yeah. Christianism. Christianism too converts Hindu religion & religio-culture into 'Indian culture', and then into 'christian culture/religion'. <= Another characteristic of missionary/replacement religion.





- Again, it is Vijayavenugopal who sets the bhakti period at 650 to 950 CE. Well, the Silappadikaaram shows TN/Kerala in a much earlier period - of 2nd/5th century CE - and it gives copious evidence of the region's Hindus of that age (like Shakta huntsmen) being devoted to their Gods and worshipping them. The stotras they use essentially have the same content as is seen in Hindus' Vedas incl Upanishads and Puranas, Hindu folksongs, Tevarams and Azhwar songs, Acharya's stotras, and Carnatic music.



- Bhakti is simply Piety (used in the Hellenistic Roman=true sense of the word) to the Gods. Buddhism and Jainism never had any Gods, and had to inculturate on others' Gods in order to keep their converts. They're good at copying, or diverging, but not good at being original.



- Bhakti is a natural product of the direct vision of the Gods. Bhakti is very much present in Taoist China for instance and ancient Hellenistic Greece/Rome. Hindus, like Taoists and Hellenes etc, see their Gods. To this day. Bhakti is evident in all 3 examples of heathenisms cited. (E.g. Julian writing about Helios speaks of his affection for the God and the wish to attain to him for any period of time.) Buddhism didn't "inspire" Hellenistic (or Taoist etc) bhakti either: the Olympic Gods did. Though Buddhism did make a beginning of its process to inculturate on the Olympic Gods as seen in Afghanistan - no doubt with an eye at peddling their inculturation in Greece and Rome thereafter.



Buddhism treats Gods as unreal, including the Bodhisattva and Multiple Buddha fictions it invented: that's why Buddhism

- keeps changing the characters, nature and appearance of other heathenisms' Gods

- regularly pretends it has "converted" heathen Gods to Buddhism (again, in order to convert the heathens). E.g. in Tibet, also Japan, etc.

- so readily changed Avalokiteshwara from looking like Shiva in Shaiva places, to looking like Vishnu in centres of Vishnu worship, to looking like a combination of the two in places where Hindus were not specifically Shaiva or Vaishnava (but both), to Avalokiteshwara in China suddenly being turned into a female deity that was initially modelled on the features of an extremely popular Taoist Goddess.



Interestingly, none of the descriptions of Avalokiteshwara reproduced by Vijayavenugopal from Puttamitiran's 11th century vIracholiya was a physical description (whereas such descriptions are parts of true bhakti literature: which are often founded on direct interaction and vision of the Gods). Perhaps 11th century Mahayana Buddhism in TN hadn't yet developed the Avalokiteshwara mythos that far yet, or perhaps Vijayavenugopal avoided them because they sounded too much like (a recognisable but the usually mangled Buddhist clone of) Shiva? The closest he got was to comparing how Shiva is described as being seated under an Alamaram/Banyan tree (=Dakshinaamoorti-Shiva) while the clone that Buddhism invented for him, Bodhisattva (Avalokiteshwara), is deliberately inched closer to Dakshinaamoorti-Shiva with the description that the clone of the Buddhists -Avalokiteshwara- sits under the Bodhi tree (that Buddha obtained enlightenment from).

Which is not only copying style/expression but inculturating on the substance too.

Regardless, Avalokiteshwara does seem to conveniently take on the form of the very Gods of Others that Buddhism wants to encroach on. A Buddhist "miracle" perhaps.

Atinata (p. 161) 'the ancient Lord,'

Jainism had already encroached on that name (though it was already that of Shiva). Just like Shaastaa is taken by both Buddhists AND Jains (besides already being a Hindu epithet for Hindu Gods, as well as a general term). Jainism and Buddism often copy each other concerning even primary names of Buddhas and teerthankaras - showing when competition between them became fiercest. And of course Buddhism plagiarised from Hindu religion: from primary names (for masking clones, e.g. Nilakantha, -Ishwara suffix), secondary names (e.g. VaishravaNa, for replacement Buddhist clones in the rearranged Buddhist hierarchy,) and physical features of Hindu Gods, encroaching on settings and everything.

Har Dayal claims that 'the idea of bhakti originated among the Buddhists and was adopted in self defence by the Hindus.' '... [The] ideal of bhakti arose and flourished among the Buddhists.'

Yes, a claim. Stating it doesn't make it true. But it certainly shows what they're wishing for. Fortunately, even Vijayavenugopal knows better than to present it as the only view, and is forced to quote better authorities - including Japanese Kimura besides people closer to home - who know better and therefore say otherwise.



But goes to show that it's not just the christians who have been asserting that they (christians) invented bhakti and that Hindus copied it from them, right? Jains at the Jain Minority Forum tried it too. All the missionary religions are envious that they have not been as successful as they hoped in converting people and that the heathen laity have been immune to their overtures for so long. They blame it on Hindus' bhakti. Unable to divert Hindus' bhakti to their own replacement religions and entities (several of which are fictional) instead, the missionary religions resort to declaring that they invented bhakti/they have the "actual, original, true" version of bhakti etc. And more missionary nonsense, born out of obvious and sad petty jealousy.



Bhakti is there in the Vedas (singing to the Gods, feeding the Gods, and deep feelings of piety to the Gods, e.g. Hindus in the Rig threatening Indra with "ichChAmIddhr^idhA manasA chidindram" which even an alien translator translated as "I long for Indran with all my heart and mind" or something); bhakti's there in the temple (Agamic) rituals, to the Itihaasas, to the Puranas, to local regional Hindu literature and songs. It is of course even there in stotras by Advaitins, because Advaitins also experience bhakti to the Hindu Gods.



Buddhism demonstrably copied bhakti. It never had Gods. Then it copied them. It never had Goddesses and then Mahayana copied them. It suddenly invented bodhisattvas, noticed that it could use Hindu Gods to attract Asian heathens and dupe them into Buddhism. Encroached on a real Taoist Goddess using the male Avalokiteshwara bodhisattva so as to appeal to even more heathen laity in E Asia, and then tried to convert more Asians using the Bauddhificly-masked Taoist Goddess (and other heathen Asian Gods that Buddhism tried to clone). Yet Buddhism never won proper converts there either.



E.g. despite ~1.7 millennia of Buddhism in Vietnam, offering the "Buddha Bhakti" brand (Buddhism in Vietnam is mainly Mahayana), there are today still ~3 times more Vietnamese practicising native and Chinese heathenism (Taoism + worshipping native and Taoist Goddesses) at about 45%+ of the population, than there are Buddhists in Vietnam (about 16%). The unBauddhised=native Vietnamese keep worshipping their own native Gods and going to Chinese Taoist temples, or set up native Taoist temples with Taoist and Vietnamese Gods - all in order to worship the Real Gods (a.o.t. fictional Buddhist entities) - even though it's being said Taoism arrived in Vietnam some centuries after Buddhism. That in itself proves that bhakti in Buddhism is not original, that Buddhism (Mahayana or Theravada) doesn't really have it, and is a shallow shadow of the real thing which is only found in Heathenisms: the heathen laity can clearly tell the difference.



And that exemplifies the most important reason for why Bhakti is naturally present in the Gods-based, Gods-centred religions (and is therefore not at all a natural feature of Buddhism/Jainism - and it's the reason why their obvious copying of "the bhakti tradition" from Hindu religion failed): the Gods of heathenisms [but not of invented missionary religions] are real. And the heathens who worship them know their Gods are real because the Gods can be seen and interacted with. Whereas invented Gods, clones/knock-offs and backprojected entities can't be seen because they don't exist. (The way only "Ishwara" and the "PAshupata Yogin" appeared - and still appear - at the site Hsuan-Tsang described, yet Avalokiteshwara was Never seen. In E Asia, the "KuanYin" seen by the superficially-Bauddhified laity is only the Taoist Goddess, who is indeed a very compassionate Goddess, but is not KuanYin or anything Buddhist. No one there's seen the actually-male Avalokiteshwara/KuanYin. They're not the same.)



en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Vietnam

Long-established religions in Vietnam have included Mahayana Buddhism, Confucianism, and Taoism (called the three teachings or tam giáo). According to Pew Forum figures, most of the Vietnamese practice indigenous religions, worshiping local spirits, gods and mother goddesses (45.3%)**, as these religions have experienced a revival since the 1980s.[8]

Buddhism is the second-largest religion with 16.4% of the population adhering, around 8.2% of the Vietnamese are Christians (mostly Catholics), and around 30% are religiously unaffiliated.

** Note the Mother Goddesses of the Vietnamese - and the Gods too - often include Taoist Gods (on a few occasions even Hindu Gods). That's because the Taoist Ammans and Gods are all real. (Which is why Buddhism tried to inculturate on them)



en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taoism_in_Vietnam

Taoism in its pure form is no longer practiced in Vietnam, but elements of it have been absorbed into the Vietnamese folk religion. Taoism has also influenced the Caodaist (recent religion that combines Jade Emperor+his Wife + with Buddhist "syncretism") and Dao Mau[2] religions in Vietnam.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dao_Mau <-> I imagine that this is related to the worship of the Taoist ... Uh not quite:

Đạo Mẫu

The term Đạo Mẫu (Han Nom:道母) refers to the worship of mother goddesses in Vietnam.[1] While scholars like Ngô Đức Thịnh propose that it represents a systematic mother goddess cult, the term draws together fairly disparate beliefs and practices.[2][3][4][5] These include the worship of goddesses such as Thiên Y A Na, The Lady of the Realm (Bà Chúa Xứ), The Lady of the Storehouse (Bà Chúa Kho) and Princess Liễu Hạnh,[6] legendary figures like Âu Cơ, the Trung Sisters (Hai Bà Trưng), and Lady Trieu (Bà Triệu), as well as the cult of the Four Palaces. Đạo Mẫu is commonly associated with spirit mediumship rituals—known in Vietnam as lên đồng—much as practiced in other parts of Asia, such as Taiwan, Singapore and Hong Kong. Although the Communist government had initially proscribed the practice of such rituals, deeming them to be superstitions, they relented in 1987, once again legalizing their practice.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnamese_folk_religion

Vietnamese folk religion

Vietnamese folk religion or Vietnamese indigenous religion (Vietnamese: tín ngưỡng dân gian Việt Nam, tôn giáo bản địa Việt Nam), also called Thầnism (Vietnamese: thần giáo,[citation needed] "religion of the gods") is the ethnic religion of the Vietnamese people, dominant in Vietnam, where it is practiced by 45.3% of the population.[1] The Vietnamese folk religion shows a great quantity of similarities with southern Chinese folk religion. (i.e. what Chinese call "Taoism" in English)

And the ethnic-Hindu (Cham) area of Vietnam is still majority Hindu, having overcome a short period of Mahayan Bauddhicisation in the middle somewhere, and then reverted to Hindu religion (just like rulers did in TN around the same time). The islamised part is now in Cambodia, with Hindu and Buddhist minorities.



en.vietnam.com/news/article/my-son-hinduism-in-vietnam.html

My Son: Hinduism in Vietnam

Photo by mittobiontour.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/pb042302.jpg

My Son is a complex of Hindu temples in Southeast Asia, considered to be one of the oldest in the continent and a one-of-a-kind sight in Vietnam. Its sandstone exhibits and statues are just some of the reflections of a spiritual India culture.

[...]

The relics at My Son were made during the reign of King Bhadravarman I (380-413 AD). A temple was built to worship Shiva in the form of Lingam, translated as the God of Rebirth. Even today, this statue, along with the figures of Yoni, Nadin and Apsara, still exist in the temple. This religious culture of India can also be found in the old written records in Sanskrit.In each cluster in the My Son complex, certain structures are a constant fixture. The temple of Kalan is always present, surrounded by the statues of Lingam, Yoni and Shiva. Gopura is the entrance gate-tower situated at the front of the complex, while Mandapa is a vestibule for public rituals. The God of Wealth Kubera is placed beside the vestibule, facing North. It consists of one to two halls containing offerings to worship the gods. The main entrance gates of all temples are strategically placed facing East wherein the sunshine can enter completely. Each temple is pyramid-shaped, the symbol of Lord Meru, home of the Hindu gods.Though My Son is generally a Hindu place of worship, some signs of Buddhism can also be found in the complex. This is because in the 10th century, Buddhism actually became the primary religion of the Cham people.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Champa

The predominance of Hinduism in Cham religion was interrupted for a time in the 9th and 10th centuries, when a dynasty at Indrapura (Dong Duong in Quảng Nam Province of modern Vietnam) adopted Mahayana Buddhism as its faith. The Buddhist art of Dong Duong has received special acclaim for its originality.



Beginning in the 10th century, Hinduism again became the predominant religion of Champa.

According to wackypedia, the Cham monarchy is dated to 2nd century CE - though wackypedia's christianism has in the main body of the text seen fit to date Hindu religion there to 6th or 7th century, despite Hindoo relics/remnants at MySon - as per above - being dated to 4th century already. The languages of the Hindu kingdom were: "Cham, Sanskrit". (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Champa)

So much for no one speaking Sanskrit. [IIRC wackypedia mentioned how every Filipino language is 25% Sanskrit and Tamil, because Filipinos used to be Hindu before their christo-islamisation and they used to know Tamil and Sanskrit, like several of the Hindu characters in Silappadikaaram apparently, including protagonist Kovalan, of a merchant community.]

And Cham Hindus also have varnas, e.g. they are significantly kShatriya (but other varnas exist there too, e.g. the existence of brahmanas is mentioned):

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Vietnam

Hinduism[edit]

Main article: Hinduism in Southeast Asia § Vietnam

Adherence to Hinduism in Vietnam is associated with the Cham ethnic minority; the first religion of the Champa kingdom was a form of Shaivite Hinduism, brought by sea from India. The Cham people erected Hindu temples (Bimong) throughout Central Vietnam, many of which are still in use today; the now-abandoned My Son, a UNESCO World Heritage site, is perhaps the most well-known of Cham temple complexes.



Approximately 50,000 ethnic Cham in the south-central coastal area practice a devotional form of Hinduism. Most of the Cham Hindus belong to the Nagavamshi Kshatriya caste,[51] but a considerable minority are Brahmins.[52] Another 4,000 Hindus (mostly Tamil, and otherwise of Cham or mixed Indian-Vietnamese descent) live in Ho Chi Minh City, where the Mariamman Temple acts as a focal point for the community.

(en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Champa mentions 60,000 Champa)





Anyway, Buddhism did not invent bhakti. The alleged "buddha bhakti" of Mahayana is clearly not even popular in Vietnam where only 16% of the population are Buddhist, while a separate 45% of the population follow the religion of their heathen Gods and ancestrally-affiliated Taoist Gods. And all this despite Vietnam regularly being tattoed as a "Buddhist nation" by Indics (such as SL Buddhists, Bauddhified Indian "Hindus" etc).

Mahayana Buddhism lost because fake bhakti is fake. And because clones/cheap knock-offs of heathen Gods are fake. And because heathens can see through all that.



Copying doesn't pay. Buddhism should have stuck to its principles and accepted that its principles do NOT have a wide appeal, instead of Buddhism trying to acquire deities for competition's sake (and inculturating on others' Gods and religions to absorb their popularity). These are dishonest tactics and point to dishonesty at the root. And they still result in reversion of laity to native heathenisms. As attested in E Asia to SE Asia to the Indic subcontinent (regular tendency to revert to Hindu Gods seen among Buddhist laity in SL, despite Hindus there not even being interested in attracting Buddhists to their temples or religion).