08-20-2005, 10:18 AM
Jaspreet, Thanks for the clarifications and a detailed reply.
It's a pity that you had to live through a traumatic period and I sincerely hope that you and your family are over it. I'll pray that with other Sikh victims of '84 your family too will get justice. Have little hope, but can only pray.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->But I have to form an opinion for myself weighing the facts like I did before. I won't have someone else do it for me. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fair enough. But when you try to pass personal annecdotes attributed to some of your 'Hindu' friends, I too will be taking it with pinch of salt.
I too lived in India and Mumbai at the time. I do remember the exact moment (around 10 AMsh) when we got a news of the IG assassination; we were infact playing cricket (it was Diwali vacation). And we had atleast 3 sardar in our team (who are till date good friends). When we heard the news, as kids we just rejoiced on the prospect of some additional holidays and went about with our roadside match.
But when there were rumours of riots breaking out on Mumabai, couple of us had escorted a sikh friend and his family (who had come from Deolali - as Sikh you would know the significance of Deolali) on our bikes armed with cricket bats/stumps/bicycle chains and some soda bottles and whatever little we could muster (we didn't own guns). So when you come here and say that Hindus might have been weilding lathis to protect themselves instead of protecting sikhs, I particularly find it repulsive and offensive.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->I've requested this earlier, in a most polite tone, and you've responded atleast four times since<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is a false statement. Your first post in response to mine was the one that I termed obnoxious. Since then I may responded 4 times, but to others, not to you<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not really, I stated that you responded 4 times which is true and I had not specified that you were responding 4 times to me. My point was that on four different occassions you had a logged on the forum and posted replies but, never to a simple question that I had asked either directly or indirectly. Insignificant now.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->
Perhaps you could point me to quotes from a single Hindu (non-Congress affiliated) who said "Sikhs needed to be taught a lesson" or "add that it was perhaps overdone" or "Had we given you (the Sikhs) 3 days you ..."
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This was said by my (Hindu) classmates, my (Hindu) friends' and their parents and my (Hindu) relatives and other Hindus (like shopkeepers, etc.) that we interacted with. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm sorry to hear about the kind of friends and relatives you had. Again, I'm not sure if they had pretty strong bias for Congress. Since I don't have access to them and have not read about their religious/political leanings either on/offline, I can't comment on this. There are dime a dozen Sikh websites online which has similar propoganda material peddled along with the Khali stan which in my opinion exists only between their ears.
As I had said earlier, every Hindu I knew didn't even bat an eyelid, let alone shed a tear for assasination, they just went about their lives no malice for any community with same relations as before. Nor have I seen this in any mainstream media.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->I have given them credit where due. Please quote a post of mine where I have implied otherwise and I will prove that you have misunderstood.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Can your quote - the one pertaining to <i>your strong belief that Hindus but not Congress against Sikhs</i> - can it be read any other way than the way I interpreted it?
It was death of Congress leader which provoked Congress goons - and the list had all kinds of people in it, Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs. One of the prime responsible in my opinion is P C Alexander, not because he's non-Hindu/Hindu but because of the gross deriliction of duty in terms of delaying the calling out the army on that fateful day, others being Bhagat, Tyler, Sajjan, Nath etc.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Viren, please try to understand that I don't believe that all followers of your religion are evil. You seem to attribute that to me. This is untrue.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your intials statements like "my belief is that at that time, it was Hindus against Sikhs, not just Congress against them" seemed to convey just the opposite of what you are saying now. I'll accept your latest statement, and put matter to rest.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Normally, I use terms like "rioters" or "mob" without reference to religion. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agree here for a change. The rioters/mob has no religion. Let's leave it at that.
Also, Jaspreet, a side note. About a year ago, when Manmohan Singh became PM, there were couple think tanks and organizations outside India who wanted to raise this issue at UN. We at IF are united in our belief that all Indian matters be resolved within Indian system - however good/flawed. Needless to say these people were pushing us to run some petitions which we politely and firmly declined (some of our petitions have made it into leading print media of India like ToI <!--emo&
--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo--> )
So, hope you understand our skeptisim in terms of accepting things at their face value - especially on this issue.
It's a pity that you had to live through a traumatic period and I sincerely hope that you and your family are over it. I'll pray that with other Sikh victims of '84 your family too will get justice. Have little hope, but can only pray.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->But I have to form an opinion for myself weighing the facts like I did before. I won't have someone else do it for me. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fair enough. But when you try to pass personal annecdotes attributed to some of your 'Hindu' friends, I too will be taking it with pinch of salt.
I too lived in India and Mumbai at the time. I do remember the exact moment (around 10 AMsh) when we got a news of the IG assassination; we were infact playing cricket (it was Diwali vacation). And we had atleast 3 sardar in our team (who are till date good friends). When we heard the news, as kids we just rejoiced on the prospect of some additional holidays and went about with our roadside match.
But when there were rumours of riots breaking out on Mumabai, couple of us had escorted a sikh friend and his family (who had come from Deolali - as Sikh you would know the significance of Deolali) on our bikes armed with cricket bats/stumps/bicycle chains and some soda bottles and whatever little we could muster (we didn't own guns). So when you come here and say that Hindus might have been weilding lathis to protect themselves instead of protecting sikhs, I particularly find it repulsive and offensive.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->I've requested this earlier, in a most polite tone, and you've responded atleast four times since<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is a false statement. Your first post in response to mine was the one that I termed obnoxious. Since then I may responded 4 times, but to others, not to you<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not really, I stated that you responded 4 times which is true and I had not specified that you were responding 4 times to me. My point was that on four different occassions you had a logged on the forum and posted replies but, never to a simple question that I had asked either directly or indirectly. Insignificant now.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->
Perhaps you could point me to quotes from a single Hindu (non-Congress affiliated) who said "Sikhs needed to be taught a lesson" or "add that it was perhaps overdone" or "Had we given you (the Sikhs) 3 days you ..."
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This was said by my (Hindu) classmates, my (Hindu) friends' and their parents and my (Hindu) relatives and other Hindus (like shopkeepers, etc.) that we interacted with. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm sorry to hear about the kind of friends and relatives you had. Again, I'm not sure if they had pretty strong bias for Congress. Since I don't have access to them and have not read about their religious/political leanings either on/offline, I can't comment on this. There are dime a dozen Sikh websites online which has similar propoganda material peddled along with the Khali stan which in my opinion exists only between their ears.
As I had said earlier, every Hindu I knew didn't even bat an eyelid, let alone shed a tear for assasination, they just went about their lives no malice for any community with same relations as before. Nor have I seen this in any mainstream media.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->I have given them credit where due. Please quote a post of mine where I have implied otherwise and I will prove that you have misunderstood.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Can your quote - the one pertaining to <i>your strong belief that Hindus but not Congress against Sikhs</i> - can it be read any other way than the way I interpreted it?
It was death of Congress leader which provoked Congress goons - and the list had all kinds of people in it, Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs. One of the prime responsible in my opinion is P C Alexander, not because he's non-Hindu/Hindu but because of the gross deriliction of duty in terms of delaying the calling out the army on that fateful day, others being Bhagat, Tyler, Sajjan, Nath etc.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Viren, please try to understand that I don't believe that all followers of your religion are evil. You seem to attribute that to me. This is untrue.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your intials statements like "my belief is that at that time, it was Hindus against Sikhs, not just Congress against them" seemed to convey just the opposite of what you are saying now. I'll accept your latest statement, and put matter to rest.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Normally, I use terms like "rioters" or "mob" without reference to religion. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agree here for a change. The rioters/mob has no religion. Let's leave it at that.
Also, Jaspreet, a side note. About a year ago, when Manmohan Singh became PM, there were couple think tanks and organizations outside India who wanted to raise this issue at UN. We at IF are united in our belief that all Indian matters be resolved within Indian system - however good/flawed. Needless to say these people were pushing us to run some petitions which we politely and firmly declined (some of our petitions have made it into leading print media of India like ToI <!--emo&
--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo--> ) So, hope you understand our skeptisim in terms of accepting things at their face value - especially on this issue.