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Sanatana Dharma - Aka Hinduism (3rd Bin)
The indiafacts links in the previous post are important, this post is just comments.



Forgot. Two comments on this next paragraph from



indiafacts.co.in/fact-sheet-jnu-mahishasura-day-controversy/

Fact Sheet on the JNU Mahishasura Day Controversy



Quote:In response, an individual call to protest was given by Arnab Chakravarty, a research scholar in SIS, under the banner of “United Hindus” on 13 October. This protest saw a 400-strong crowd. It saw the participation of students from all castes and regions be it Northeast, South India, North, East or West India. A large number of Left supporters especially girls joined it. The Left parties began to realize that by targeting Durga they had scored a self-goal. After all, the worship of Goddess is among the most ancient and sacred traditions of India. And even according to Aryan-Dravidian construct, worship of Shiva and Shakti is considered to be the indigenous tradition having its roots in tribal shamanic traditions.



1. Worship of Shiva and Shakti is rooted in the Vedas. Any other claims require *proof*. The first evidence of mention of Shiva is in the Vedas - including the first occurrence of his common mantram (YV) - and in the same anuvaaka is also mention of Shiva united with Amman (IIRC as Soma - i.e. his name as meaning "with Uma"). From the Vedam too, one of the "oldest" upanishads as per indologicals and certainly a *ritualistic* upanishad, is the reference to Shiva as "Uma-pati ... Ambika-pati" - i.e. the husband of Uma (also meaning brahmavidya), the husband of Ambika (Ambika being the Mother Goddess of the Hindus; and Shiva being her husband, i.e. the Divine Father of Hindus).



- In this context: the "...puruSha(M?)-krishna-pingalam" (or something) line when referring to Shiva at the end of the same mantropasanam is also IIRC viewed/explained as a reference to Ardhanaarishwara. (It is also at times translated as referring to Mohini+Shiva and Shankara-Narayana.)



- The first references to not just Sankhyam but *cosmological* Sankhya is from the Vedas. And cosmological Sankhya is BTW unique to the pre-classical=theistic Sankhya, and specifically does not exist in classical Sankhya (which therefore loses its origins/proof of derivation). The first references to Shakti and her relation to Shiva are from the Vedas.

The *Vedam* (and the practical tradition of Agamic/temple worship - but then the Vedas themselves are called Agama as well as Nigama, and hence are the same/same body/variants of the same) is the first source of the cosmological knowledge of Shiva-Shakti and where worship of the Hindu cosmological view of the Hindu Divine Parents comes from.

That is not to say that Shiva-Shakti - or any other of the Hindu/Vedic pantheon - belongs "more" to Hindus who have been ejected by aliens and unHindus as oryan invaders, than to Hindus who have been dubbed (by aliens and unHindus) as "aboriginal" or "dravoodian". The Hindu=Vedic Gods are native to the Hindu countryside, and native to the ethnic population. In specific, Hindu religion (aka Vedic religion, Sanatana Dharma etc) IS the native ancestral heathenism of the subcontinent.



Anyway, the specific point is, Shiva and Shakti are AS MUCH Gods of the Vedam as say Indran or VaruNa or Vishnu. Cannot eject one as alien and not the other. That is, there is NO UNIVERSE in which one is a product of "oryan invasion" and the other is "oppressed native dravoodian". The Hindu pantheon is one body and is native or alien together. Even Ayyappa is a Vedic God.

The fact that Hindu Gods are seen in villages and the remotest parts and communities of the Hindoo homeland is because a. the Hindu=Vedic Gods ARE native to the Hindoo homeland, since it is their original and natural habitat in this world and b. the Hindoo Gods are ATTACHED to the ethnic Hindoo natives, who are their people, and therefore manifest among them variously and repeatedly (both in natural swayambhu forms and local avataaras), as much as they manifest in manifestations known to all ethnic Hindus (pan-Hindu).



Anyone who wishes to claim that Shiva and Shakti worship have any other origin - outside of or predating the Vedic tradition - needs to show pre-Vedic textual proof of their claims. (Not backprojected ur-Shramanisms/Jainisms/Buddhisms/dravoodianisms/christianisms etc. They will be dismissed in toto.) Like the Americans say, Put up or shut up.





2. More urgent: What in the world is the word "shamanic" doing in a reference to India? Outside of some northeast Indian communities - specifically the heathen Nagas, who do have Shamanistic traditions, as seen in ep 5 of the Animal Planet documentary "Wildest India" - how in the world can there be any Shamanism in India?



Shamanism is a *very specific* religious term. And "Shaman" too, is a *very specific* religious term. It is particularly a religious term associated with the ancient (and still extant) form of ancestrally closely-interrelated religions of *E Asian* and related peoples. I.e. the populations that the west dubs the "mongoloid race" or as having been related to them (like the Fins). Shamanism is the religious form of ethnic Koreans, Mongolians/Turkic tribes, Tibetans, and Siberians, Finno-Ugric people are included here; some also say Shamanism is the ancient form of the religion of the Japanese and Chinese. (While Shamanism is definitely the religious form of some Chinese minority populations, scholars refer to the ancient 'beginnings' of mainstream Chinese=Taoist religion as a variant of Shamanism too.)



Shamanism is not - and cannot be - the ancient form of the religion of Indian people (even of those suddenly uniquely dubbed as aboriginals) since they're not ethnically E Asian or related. Well, Indians can start to claim it, but then don't whine if China takes you at your word and tries to claim all of India and ejects all Indians: when Indians are by and large not an E Asian population, if you start to claim the ancient ethnic Indian religion originated as a Shamanism, then you're essentially saying all non-E-Asian Indians are alien invaders. So more fool you if China holds you to it.

Unless dravoodians want to claim they were all originally E Asian looking, no one is going to believe dravoodians are natives if Shamanism is elected the original native form of religion in India.



Note: It's been some decades since even the Native Americans - who qua phenotype at least are more closely affiliated with Finno-Ugric/Siberian/Kamchatka (sp?) and other circumpolar populations and the main "E Asian" (and many SE Asian) populations -

again: It's been some decades since even the Native Americans have rejected the term Shamanism for their own religions, despite the details of their religions being more similar to Shamanism than to say Hindu religion. But they do not want their religions to be declared as being derived from E Asian religion, and thereafter to be declared as being derived populations. Plus they find their religions sufficiently different to not see these as being actual Shamanisms beyond initial outward appearances.

Then how can Hindus claim any non-E-Asian Indian populations would have been Shamanist in India's past? How? Unless the claim is that all of India was inhabited by populations genetically related to the E-Asians... Shaman is a very specific term, like brahmana. (And in similar fashion, the Shamanist laity is not called a "shaman".) You don't randomly go tell Africans or Native Americans who gather ritualistically around fires that they are "brahmins" do you, or that their religions are "brahminical/Vedic"? Same thing. Religions are related to ethnicity. Indians outside of the regions bordering E Asia and SE Asia (such as the Himalayan regions and SE Asian islands) - which are naturally spill-over areas/meeting places of Indian and other Asian populations - are not greatly genetically-affiliated with E Asians. (I'm not saying there's no relationship, since Tamil Brahmanas - at least - have some very E-Asian phenotypes among them - specifically Japanese and Chinese looking ancient strains, though these are specifically not C-Asian/Turkic/Mongolian-phenotypes; but this is a very tiny percentage. Alternatively, it could just be due to the native Indian gene pool's great genetic and phenotypical variety.)



Therefore for Indians to claim Shamanism while not being ethnically E/SE Asian is an impossibility.* Alternatively, if you're going to claim Shamanism, claim your genetic origins are E-Asian/Mongolian.



Almost as impossible as Egyptian or GrecoRoman religions being dubbed Shamanisms: all animistic (hence all heathen) religions are to some degree similar to the officially-designated Shamanisms to some extent, but religions that are actually derived from ancestral forms of real Shamanism and whose adherents are consequently ethnically related to some degree are factually dubbed "Shamanism".

In a way, it's sort of like how the word "Dharmic" can't be applied to African or Native American or E Asian or European religions: only religions that have the word Dharma in them [for which they need to be rooted in the Indic subcontinent/Indian ethnicity] are called "Dharmic". No matter how similar African, European, Native American, or other Asian relgions may be to Hindu religion, they aren't technically "Dharmic" (even though they might be termed 'Dharmic' in the more meaningful sense).



Pre-emptive prediction (bad joke, but you never know):

Next, the evil ur-Shramanism peddlers may try to encroach on Shamanism, using their talent for pathetic excuses: "because" ShramaNa has "so many letters in common" with Shaman - though when spelled in Roman characters. (Never mind that Shaman is all of just 2 syllables, so what a "great" miracle...) Sadly, despite the words not actually being related, it is further to be noted that 1. ShramaNa is a Vedic Sanskrit term, which itself is in direct conflict with the fundamental claims of ur-Shramanism and which also shows that the Prakritic forms of the word are necessarily derived; and 2. Shamanism is at the other end of the spectrum from Shramanism: Hindu religion is far more closely related to Shamanism, than Buddhisms or Jainisms are related to Shamanism (corrected typo). [May explain why Buddhism desperately extincted Bonpos/Shamans in Tibet and Mongolia and tried to kill and replace Bon/Mongolian Shamanism there.]

That is to say: Hindus' religion is sooner to be designated a Shamanism, than Buddhism/Jainism (or the ur-Shramanism fiction) is.





The links in the previous post are important, this post is just comments.
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Sanatana Dharma - Aka Hinduism (3rd Bin) - by Guest - 08-01-2005, 02:34 AM
Sanatana Dharma - Aka Hinduism (3rd Bin) - by Guest - 08-02-2005, 10:36 AM
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