Haha, found some documented indirect support for this statement in the above, not that proof was needed (it is a commonly held view among at least some Hindoos):
[quote name='Husky' date='29 October 2014 - 03:36 PM' timestamp='1414576738' post='117422']
- In this context: the "...puruSha(M?)-krishna-pingalam" (or something) line when referring to Shiva at the end of the same mantropasanam is also IIRC viewed/explained as a reference to Ardhanaarishwara. (It is also at times translated as referring to Mohini+Shiva and Shankara-Narayana.)
[/quote]
Compare with:
kamakoti.org/kamakoti/stotra/Sri%20Rudram%20Anuvakam10.html
And look at this from the Silappadikaaram:
1. From p.113 of S. Krishnamoorthy's translation of "Silappadikaram" visible at Googlebooks:
That a couple of Amman's beautiful white teeth stick out cutely - as also described above in Madurapati - is often seen in many village Shakti Kovils to Amman all over TN and Kerala too. The Ammans housed there are *exactly* the above description.
Can further see how the above descriptions of Ardhanaree(shwara) Uma-Shiva - who is the local manifestation Madurapati, deity of Madurai - matches exactly what is in Hindus' Vedam including Upanishads, and Puranas (including stotras) and imagery.
Parashu in one hand and padmam in the other, exactly like in Arhdanaaree images, even the male and female anklets match.
=> "she has black-lily-like collyrium-painted eyes and a radiant face"
That's a reference to Prakriti (there's 3 colours to Amman's eyes: black, red and white), exactly as in Hindoo shaastras. But then Hindoos' Gods are veda-svaroopam.
Look how the body of Madurapati - the Ardhanaaree(shwara) - is clearly described above as nIla on the vaamabhagam and golden yellow on the right. Shiva in the Yajurveda's Rudram is repeatedly described as the colours of the sun (aruNa) and indeed as the sun. This expressly includes the colours golden-yellow to reddish/brown.
[And so another name of Shiva is vilohita (very red/deep-red), because his body is deep-red.*]
Proof. See relevant portion of MW dictionary entry:
* Shiva's son Murugan looks a younger version of him and is Red just like him. Murugan's red colour is indicated in one of his ancient names in Tamil.
Note that Shiva himself also comes in nIla colour, sphaTika (crystal) or transparent colour, and shweta colour, besides golden and red. Panchamukha Shiva have these colours. Ashtabhairavas are also supposed to cover these colours.
2. The following are excerpts from some of the shlokas in a stotram to Durga sung by the Hindoo huntsmen in Silappadikaaram, whose kuladevam she was (as she remains for many Hindoos in the south).
The shlokas are taken from the visible pages 72 and 74 of S. Krishnamoorthy's translation of "Silappadikaram" at Googlebooks.
I've inserted all the stuff in [square brackets].
Note how knowledgeable the Tamil Hindoo huntsmen are about the Vedam, by knowing their Amman so well:
** The halaahalam: note that any Amman is always automatically credited with the accomplishments of her husband or (in the case of Durga) even of her brother too.
When all looked upon the terrible kaalakooTam as it would poison all life in the world, Shiva, caring not for himself, selflessly swallowed the kaalakooTam. Everyone was relieved upon seeing him take the matter into his own hands, only his wife (Amman) was concerned for his welfare - he, who was in turn concerned only for the welfare of the world - and so Amman stepped up too, and lifted her hand to clasp her husband's neck, to stall the viSha from flowing further down, due to her natural fear (as his caring wife) that it might injure him, even though it couldn't really. But because she did so, the viSha didn't go past his throat, which made him therefore NeelakaNTha.
However, because Amman is Shiva's wife and further dwells in half of his body, she is described as the one who swallowed it.
The SL and/or LS also refers to the fact that Uma-Shiva alone are the witness of the end of universe, being immortal and the only ones to also exist beyond this. This is not actually to be taken to deny the immortality of the other Hindoo Gods or that they are not also its parents. The reference here, as in Silappadikaaram, is to the identification of Uma-Shiva as that Ishwara/Parabrahman/Paramapurusha/etc - whose own power is the Devaatmashakti from whom the All evolves - and who remains as eternal witness, despite the world of manifestation returning back into Prakriti's balanced state and everything folding back.
Anyway all this merely proves that the Hindoo huntsmen of Tamil/Kerala regions in ancient times were far more Vedic than I could ever be. But then, they were HindOOs.
The huntsmen in the Silappadikaaram were offering their Amman MahishAsura-mardinI
1. food (="feeding the Gods"=homam), and
2. rendering stotras in praise of her and singing to her (=riks and saamam).
Moreover, the stotras in praise of her are identical in meaning and essence to what the Hindoo shaastras say, starting from the Vedam. This is seen in Hindoo local-language folksongs throughout India, including the remotest parts. The knowledge the Hindoos have of their Gods is from ancient interaction - i.e. derived first-hand, from the direct vision of the Gods themselves - that is why having the vision of the Gods is knowing the vedam (since the Hindoo Gods=the vedam) from which derive accurate renderings of the Gods' likenesses in Hindoos' stotras.
[TN has lots of kovils to Maariamman. Maari, a name of Durga, looks just as described in Silappadikaaram above - her hair looks like that of Bhairava (on fire) and/or she holds his Ayudhas - plus her name Maari is already there in Devi Mahatmyam and in Hindoo Sahasranamas (Durga and Lakshmi Sahasranamas).
Corrected: Devi Mahatmyam, not atharvasheerSham]
Anyway, so what is all this (at indiafacts, see previous post) about Shiva-Shakti being indigenous but not the Vedas, and that the two could ever be separate? Shiva-Shakti is Vedic religion - and inseparable from it - and Vedic religion IS the ancestral, indigenous religion of the subcontinent; hence the ancient ancestral religion of remote Hindoo communities from all over Bharatam, such as also the huntsmen of ancient Hindoo Tamil Nadu. Like Yudhisthira said in the MBh (paraphrasing): the Vedam is seen in all the Hindoos.
[quote name='Husky' date='29 October 2014 - 03:36 PM' timestamp='1414576738' post='117422']
- In this context: the "...puruSha(M?)-krishna-pingalam" (or something) line when referring to Shiva at the end of the same mantropasanam is also IIRC viewed/explained as a reference to Ardhanaarishwara. (It is also at times translated as referring to Mohini+Shiva and Shankara-Narayana.)
[/quote]
Compare with:
kamakoti.org/kamakoti/stotra/Sri%20Rudram%20Anuvakam10.html
Quote:The address à ¤¨à ¥â¬Ã ¤²à ¤²à ¥â¹Ã ¤¹à ¤¿à ¤¤ can be interpreted in two ways- black in neck and red in rest of the body, or, Ardhanariswara with Deviââ¬â¢s part in black and Easwaraââ¬â¢s part in red.The same is said about the line I had mentioned.
And look at this from the Silappadikaaram:
1. From p.113 of S. Krishnamoorthy's translation of "Silappadikaram" visible at Googlebooks:
Quote:Madurapati, the guardian-deity of Madurai, has matted hair and a crescent moon resting in it, she has black-lily-like collyrium-painted eyes and a radiant face; her molar teeth stick out of her coral-like, red lips; her pearly teeth are bright like moonlight; the left side of her body is dark-blue, while the right is golden yellow; her left hand bears a golden lotus while the right wields a lustrous lovely axe; her right leg sports the warrior's ankle-ring while the left wears the peerless jingling anklet.1
Being the protector of the line of the Pandian, the lord of the cool Korkai and Kanyakumari ports, the ruler of Podiyil hills, whose northern boundary is the golden Himalayas, she appeared[...]
That a couple of Amman's beautiful white teeth stick out cutely - as also described above in Madurapati - is often seen in many village Shakti Kovils to Amman all over TN and Kerala too. The Ammans housed there are *exactly* the above description.
Can further see how the above descriptions of Ardhanaree(shwara) Uma-Shiva - who is the local manifestation Madurapati, deity of Madurai - matches exactly what is in Hindus' Vedam including Upanishads, and Puranas (including stotras) and imagery.
Parashu in one hand and padmam in the other, exactly like in Arhdanaaree images, even the male and female anklets match.
=> "she has black-lily-like collyrium-painted eyes and a radiant face"
That's a reference to Prakriti (there's 3 colours to Amman's eyes: black, red and white), exactly as in Hindoo shaastras. But then Hindoos' Gods are veda-svaroopam.
Look how the body of Madurapati - the Ardhanaaree(shwara) - is clearly described above as nIla on the vaamabhagam and golden yellow on the right. Shiva in the Yajurveda's Rudram is repeatedly described as the colours of the sun (aruNa) and indeed as the sun. This expressly includes the colours golden-yellow to reddish/brown.
[And so another name of Shiva is vilohita (very red/deep-red), because his body is deep-red.*]
Proof. See relevant portion of MW dictionary entry:
Quote:1 aruNa mf(%{A4} [RV. v , 63 , 6 , &c.] or %{I4} [RV. x , 61 , 4 , & , (nom. pl. %{aruNa4yas}) 95 , 6]) n. ( %{R} Un2.) , reddish-brown , tawny , red , ruddy (the colour of the morning opposed to the darkness of night) RV. &c. ; [...] m. red colour BhP. ; the dawn (personified as the charioteer of the sun) Mn. x , 33 , &c. ; the sun S3a1k. ;
[... lots of other meanings and personal names]
N. of a river MBh. iii , 7022 and ix , 2429 seq. , (%{I4s}) f. red cow (in the Vedic myths) RV. and SV. ; the dawn RV. ; (%{a4m}) n. red colour RV. x , 168 , 1 , gold AV. xiii , 4 , 51 ; a ruby BhP.
* Shiva's son Murugan looks a younger version of him and is Red just like him. Murugan's red colour is indicated in one of his ancient names in Tamil.
Note that Shiva himself also comes in nIla colour, sphaTika (crystal) or transparent colour, and shweta colour, besides golden and red. Panchamukha Shiva have these colours. Ashtabhairavas are also supposed to cover these colours.
2. The following are excerpts from some of the shlokas in a stotram to Durga sung by the Hindoo huntsmen in Silappadikaaram, whose kuladevam she was (as she remains for many Hindoos in the south).
The shlokas are taken from the visible pages 72 and 74 of S. Krishnamoorthy's translation of "Silappadikaram" at Googlebooks.
I've inserted all the stuff in [square brackets].
Note how knowledgeable the Tamil Hindoo huntsmen are about the Vedam, by knowing their Amman so well:
Quote:7. "You stand on the black head of the wild buffalo [=mahishasura; Vishnu-Durga moortis in TN show her standing on it], clothing yourself in elephant-hide and tiger-skin; [=exact description of Shiva's garments from dhyanam to Yajur Veda's Rudram and from Puranas. Amman dwells in half of Shiva's body, plus also dresses like she's the female version of him;]; worshipped by the celestials and beyond the reach of even the scriptures, [=being DurgA, hard to reach, repeated in may stotras that by bhakti she will be reached], you stand steady as the sprout of supreme wisdom! [= direct reference to upaniShads. DurgA IS umA who IS brahmavidya.]
8. "Wielding a sword in your hand, which wears bangles carved with lines, you killed the mighty buffalo and bestrode the stag with black, coiled horns. [=one of her vaahanas, also in old TN Hindu imagery] You are the effulgent light, ensconced in the lotus-hearts of Vishnu, Shiva and Brahma and scattering rays of light far and wide! [=repeating Pauranic texts and stotras. Plus the explicit reference to trimoorti makes Amman=parabrahman. And devaatmashakti from Vedam.]
9. "Holding the conch and the discuss in your lotus-hands, [=Vishnu-Durga, Vishnu-Maya from Puranas; ancient imagery of whom is present all over Hindu TN] you straddle the ferocious lion-like bull with blood-shot eyes. ["Lion-like bull": maybe like how Amman is ardhanaaree, her vaahanam is half-and-half with that of her husband too here? In images of Ardhanaarishwara this is shown as a simham or puli/vyaaghra on Amman's side and the vrishabham on Shiva's side.]
Assuming female form and adored 1w* [OCR error; "by"/"of"?] the scriptures, [=Vedas=Hindoo scriptures onlee; famous epithet of all Ammans], you occupy the occupy the left-half of the forehead-eyed Lord who bears the Ganga on his matted hair! [<- Repeats Vedas/upanishads. Amman is in vaamabhaagam of Shivan, this is IIRC said in the Rudrahridayopanishad. Mohini Amman is also said to be in Vaamabhagam of Shiva, and Vishnu in trimoorti forms of Shiva is said to be on the vaamabhagam and Brahma on the other side. Both Vishnu and Shiva's Shakti are nIlam in colour. Also, Mohini is on the vaamabhaagam of Shiva because both Mohini and DurgA are actually the same: Vishnu's Shakti=Vishnu's Prakriti=Vishnu- Maya/Mohini=Vishnu-DurgA=DurgA. These are all direct references to upanishads and puranas. Also SL IIRC says that Vishnu's form as Mohini was able to win Shiva only because it looked exactly like Lalitha, because Lalitha had granted this as a boon to Vishnu (since Ayyappa needed to be born to save the Hindoo cosmos). And also, Shaastaa/Dharmashaastaa is said to be Lalitaa's son. That's because he is Mohini's son. Because Mohini=Vishnu-Durga=Durga.]
19. "Please accept this blood mixed with flesh offered to you to the sound of the drum, the tabor and the horn by the huntsmen--who resemble the tiger which attacks at midnight--in fulfilment of the vow they had made touching the feet of yours, the virgin goddess!
[Durga is Kanyakumari. The Kanyakumari manifestation is eternally engaged but not yet married, since she needed to destroy an asura as a Kanya. In Tiruvilaiyadil or some other ancient Hindu tradition - which was filmed long ago - the Gods and Rishis finally reunite Kanyakumari and Shiva in the beyond and they are married.
Also, Adi Shankara in his Shivananda Lahari plays on the double-meaning of "Durga" in a verse, and the second (and romantic) meaning speaks of the divine romantic union of Uma-Shiva. I.e. that she is also not a virgin. I'd parrot it, but I have a tendency to spoil anything that is either funny or romantic in my re-telling.
Also the above and previous verse shows that Hindoos offering non-vegetarian foods to certain Gods is acceptable and traditional. That said I'm still a vegetarian and would only ever offer vegetarian fare.]
20. "O Sankara's spouse! One who pervades the skies! The blue-hued one! The Goddess who wears the red-eyed serpent and the crescent on her matted tresses! Please enjoy this offering of food by the huntsmen [...]
21. "Despite having consumed nectar, the celestials cannot escape death; but you remain immortal even after consuming poison1** that none else can imbibe. Please accept this offering made by the merciless huntsmen [...]
22. "You crawled through the pair of arjuna trees and felled them; you kicked to pieces the revolving wheel sent by your deceitful uncle Kamsa. Please accept this offering from the huntsmen [...]
** The halaahalam: note that any Amman is always automatically credited with the accomplishments of her husband or (in the case of Durga) even of her brother too.
When all looked upon the terrible kaalakooTam as it would poison all life in the world, Shiva, caring not for himself, selflessly swallowed the kaalakooTam. Everyone was relieved upon seeing him take the matter into his own hands, only his wife (Amman) was concerned for his welfare - he, who was in turn concerned only for the welfare of the world - and so Amman stepped up too, and lifted her hand to clasp her husband's neck, to stall the viSha from flowing further down, due to her natural fear (as his caring wife) that it might injure him, even though it couldn't really. But because she did so, the viSha didn't go past his throat, which made him therefore NeelakaNTha.
However, because Amman is Shiva's wife and further dwells in half of his body, she is described as the one who swallowed it.
The SL and/or LS also refers to the fact that Uma-Shiva alone are the witness of the end of universe, being immortal and the only ones to also exist beyond this. This is not actually to be taken to deny the immortality of the other Hindoo Gods or that they are not also its parents. The reference here, as in Silappadikaaram, is to the identification of Uma-Shiva as that Ishwara/Parabrahman/Paramapurusha/etc - whose own power is the Devaatmashakti from whom the All evolves - and who remains as eternal witness, despite the world of manifestation returning back into Prakriti's balanced state and everything folding back.
Anyway all this merely proves that the Hindoo huntsmen of Tamil/Kerala regions in ancient times were far more Vedic than I could ever be. But then, they were HindOOs.
The huntsmen in the Silappadikaaram were offering their Amman MahishAsura-mardinI
1. food (="feeding the Gods"=homam), and
2. rendering stotras in praise of her and singing to her (=riks and saamam).
Moreover, the stotras in praise of her are identical in meaning and essence to what the Hindoo shaastras say, starting from the Vedam. This is seen in Hindoo local-language folksongs throughout India, including the remotest parts. The knowledge the Hindoos have of their Gods is from ancient interaction - i.e. derived first-hand, from the direct vision of the Gods themselves - that is why having the vision of the Gods is knowing the vedam (since the Hindoo Gods=the vedam) from which derive accurate renderings of the Gods' likenesses in Hindoos' stotras.
[TN has lots of kovils to Maariamman. Maari, a name of Durga, looks just as described in Silappadikaaram above - her hair looks like that of Bhairava (on fire) and/or she holds his Ayudhas - plus her name Maari is already there in Devi Mahatmyam and in Hindoo Sahasranamas (Durga and Lakshmi Sahasranamas).
Corrected: Devi Mahatmyam, not atharvasheerSham]
Anyway, so what is all this (at indiafacts, see previous post) about Shiva-Shakti being indigenous but not the Vedas, and that the two could ever be separate? Shiva-Shakti is Vedic religion - and inseparable from it - and Vedic religion IS the ancestral, indigenous religion of the subcontinent; hence the ancient ancestral religion of remote Hindoo communities from all over Bharatam, such as also the huntsmen of ancient Hindoo Tamil Nadu. Like Yudhisthira said in the MBh (paraphrasing): the Vedam is seen in all the Hindoos.