Hi all,
I am a new member and a Biochemist (DNA studies <!--emo&  --><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo--> ) by training. I have been following this and the AIT thread for a while and I am very impressed with all your efforts. I will be contributing more in the coming days.
I recently attended a symposium organized by 12th grade Indian kids in a well known Saturday Hindu school in NJ (known to be ahead of the curve), teaching Indian values. On Indian History the kids parroted the ususal AIT.
I was wondering if we can put a 1hr power point presentation on the lack of AI, DNA evidence etc. to present it at various forums.
Also could any one point out URL for a scholarly rebuttal of Arun Shourie's Eminent Historians. The only comments I have found was from Ms. Romila Thapar- "he writes the worst kind of pulp fiction"-nothing more.
<!--QuoteBegin-Ananth+Jan 15 2006, 03:59 AM-->QUOTE(Ananth @ Jan 15 2006, 03:59 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Hi all,
I am a new member and a Biochemist (DNA studies <!--emo& --><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo--> ) by training. I have been following this and the AIT thread for a while and I am very impressed with all your efforts. I will be contributing more in the coming days.
I recently attended a symposium organized by 12th grade Indian kids in a well known Saturday Hindu school in NJ (known to be ahead of the curve), teaching Indian values. On Indian History the kids parroted the ususal AIT.
I was wondering if we can put a 1hr power point presentation on the lack of AI, DNA evidence etc. to present it at various forums.
Also could any one point out URL for a scholarly rebuttal of Arun Shourie's Eminent Historians. The only comments I have found was from Ms. Romila Thapar- "he writes the worst kind of pulp fiction"-nothing more.
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Get the Stephen Oppenheimer book from Amazon
and copy the charts
Here is Stephen Oppenheimer's DNA travel map
Genographic Project : Link
National Geography is charging <b>$100 to test </b>individual DNA and they will tell individual DNA history, it takes 1 month to get result.
<b>Early Humans Settled India Before Europe, Study Suggests</b><!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Brian Vastag
for National Geographic News
November 14, 2005
Modern humans migrated out of Africa and into India much earlier than once believed, driving older hominids in present-day India to extinction and creating some of the earliest art and architecture, a new study suggests.
The research places modern humans in India tens of thousands of years before their arrival in Europe.
[Western Indologist Aryan invasion theory in <!--emo&:flush--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/Flush.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='Flush.gif' /><!--endemo--> ]
University of Cambridge researchers Michael Petraglia and Hannah James developed the new theory after analyzing decades' worth of existing fieldwork in India. They outline their research in the journal Current Anthropology.
<b>"He's putting all the pieces together, which no one has done before,"</b> Sheela Athreya, an anthropologist at Texas A&M University, said of Petraglia.
Modern humans arrived in Europe around 40,000 years ago, leaving behind cave paintings, jewelry, and evidence that they drove the Neandertals to extinction.
Petraglia and James argue that similar events took place in India when modern humans arrived there about 70,000 years ago.
<b>The Indian subcontinent was once home to Homo heidelbergensis, a hominid species that left Africa about 800,000 years ago, Petraglia explained</b>.
<b>"I realized that, my god, modern humans might have wiped out Homo heidelbergensis in India," he said. "Modern humans may have been responsible for wiping out all sorts of ancestors around the world."</b>
<b>"Our model of India is talking about that entire wave of dispersal," he added. "[T]hat's a huge implication for paleoanthropology and human evolution." </b>
<b>A New Model</b>
Petraglia and James reached their conclusions by pulling together fossils, artifacts, and genetic data.
<b>The evidence points to an early human migration through the Middle East and into India, arriving in Australia by 45,000 to 60,000 years ago, they say. </b>
Their model begins about 250,000 years ago, when Homo heidelbergensis arrived in India toting crude stone tools. Digs in central India in the 1980s turned up skeletal remains of the species, and other sites revealed almond-shaped hand axes chipped from stone.
.........................
<b>A dearth of fossils and artifacts in India makes Petraglia and James's research even more valuable</b>, writes Robin Dennell, professor of archeology at the University of Sheffield, in a comment accompanying the study.
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One question regarding about the human migration theory and AIT. How does this Oppenhiemer and National Geography stories disprove AIT? AIT proponents do not say that there was no human migration to India before aryan invation. In fact they admit that there were earlier inhabitants in India and they call them Dravidians. They do not question where they came from.
AIT proponents argue that, Aryans came from west and they brought Hindu civilization to India, composed Vedas etc. In fact they want to take credits for all great things from India and to claim that they are racially superior.
To counter AIT, I think we need to focus on to prove that Hinduism and Indian culture are much older than aryan invasion dates, and of course that that invasion never took place.
<!--QuoteBegin-ashyam+Jan 15 2006, 12:30 PM-->QUOTE(ashyam @ Jan 15 2006, 12:30 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->One question regarding about the human migration theory and AIT. How does this Oppenhiemer and National Geography stories disprove AIT? AIT proponents do not say that there was no human migration to India before aryan invation. In fact they admit that there were earlier inhabitants in India and they call them Dravidians. They do not question where they came from.
AIT proponents argue that, Aryans came from west and they brought Hindu civilization to India, composed Vedas etc. In fact they want to take credits for all great things from India and to claim that they are racially superior.
To counter AIT, I think we need to focus on to prove that Hinduism and Indian culture are much older than aryan invasion dates, and of course that that invasion never took place.
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Per standard AIT , north indians are invaders from Europe
What DNA shows is that north Indians are descended from south Indians
who were the main migrants into India through the coastal route
DNA also shows that India is mostly a people exporter
All non-africans are of Indian descent
Per AIT, Europeans invaded India
DNA shows that Europe was colonised by Indians from Punjab area by 7 separate migrations
DNA also shows that most of the Indian population has been present in India
for over 20k years
<!--QuoteBegin-G.Subramaniam+Jan 15 2006, 07:32 PM-->QUOTE(G.Subramaniam @ Jan 15 2006, 07:32 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->All non-africans are of Indian descent
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
the mongoloids too ??
as an aside, what does china and japan owe to india, save buddhism ??
01-16-2006, 02:37 AM
(This post was last modified: 01-16-2006, 02:59 AM by dhu.)
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->It is the Aryan-Mind-Invasion Theory now. Their minds invaded us Indians, who were incapable of speech and agriculture, .... Ooh, wait, Underhill and Witzel probably still believe in their ancestors invading our lands. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Underhill is a participant in the racistfest known as the "Harvard roundtable" presided by Witzel. He may have been goaded by joker Witzel into making some of these statements or it may be his own agenda.
In addition to the prejudiced statements from Kashyap and Underhill, we have this amazing and incomprehensible statement from the national geographic writer himself:
India Acquired Language, Not Genes, From West, Study Says
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->If steppe-dwelling Central Asians did lend language and technology, but not many genes, to northern India, the region may have changed far less over the centuries than previously believed.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Basically the AIT claims are being treated as facts over and above the actual genetic results.
Spencer Wells, Genographic project, NAtional Geographic, and Underhill are appearing more and more to be agenda-driven.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Spencer Wells, Genographic project, NAtional Geographic, and Underhill are appearing more and more to be agenda-driven.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You must add to the list Indian Collaborators as well.
There was a program "journey of man" in NGC before 2 years where they showed one Professor Rm.Pitchappan from Madurai Kamaraj university collaborating with Spencer Wells.
01-16-2006, 07:10 AM
(This post was last modified: 01-16-2006, 07:11 AM by Hauma Hamiddha.)
It is not at all clear if Manansala does not have Christian sympathies. In any case we should not equate him with Elst, nor fete him. He has a jealous envy for Brahmins and Indians more generally, a pro-Dalitist sympathy, and his real agenda is to appropriate India's past for his people the Austronesians. Using the pan Austric banner he is trying to merely convert Indian issues into fodder for this pan Austric ascendancy model. it is best to stay away from dubious characters like him.
01-17-2006, 12:56 AM
(This post was last modified: 01-17-2006, 01:05 AM by dhu.)
Manansala is a close associate of Oppenheimer. His work with austric actually supports out-of-india movements. Of course, we could disgree with whether the austric influence in india is due to a substratum; it makes more sense as an adstratum, as pointed out by Dr. Elst.
from another associate, Pedersen:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->http://sambali.blogspot.com/2004_12_26_sambali_archive.html
http://www.angelfire.com/rant/tgpedersen/austric.html
I think (but I am not sure) that Manansala proposes that the Indic/Austric cognates he has listed belong to a substrate of Indic (or is Indic?). The problem is that the Indic half of the cognate pairs have well-established cognates of their own in the other Indo-European language groups. Therefore the existence of the cognate pairs that Paul Manansala has found does not disprove Indo-European influence in India (which he doesn't claim, anyway), rather <b>it would tend to reinforce an out-of-India hypothesis for Indo-European. </b><!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Loganathan from akandabaratam is similar in that he argues for, like V. Keerthi Kumar, a Dravidian origin for Sanskrit. He has been falsely and foolishly maligned by overenthusiatic IC listers who are just playing into the west's divide and rule. Loganathan also has some neo-dalitist type sympathies but that is not to be unexpected after the extended JNU brainwashing of past 50 years.
Indians are lacking in allies, who better than the SE asians to fill in the spot of ally. This work also emphasizes SE asian contribution to Hinduism and takes our mutuial ties far beyond the Hindu Classical period.
I agree that some of Manansala's motivations are less than transparent. But why do you say that Manansala may have Christian sympathies, other than he is filipino.
Alot of the Austric evidence extends out of Oppenheimer's first work, Eden in the East.
I have a 60 Mb video of an oppenheimer presentation at the darwin centre in london. From his demeanor, it is plain that ulterior motivations are lacking in his work. I will try to upload it soon. I am worried that by casting aspersions on Manansala, we also do the same to Oppenheimer.
Dhu,<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->I am worried that by casting aspersions on Manansala, we also do the same to Oppenheimer.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd--> I did not mean to cast Manansala in any negative light. My post was from a position of ignorance about who he was and what his motivations were. My questions indicated that I knew nothing about him. In fact, I was under the wrong impression that he was an <b>Indian </b>Christian. I will take your opinion on matters about him and his intentions (I certainly hope he has no ties to Christianity).
Besides, I agree with his comments pointing out the dubious conclusions in those genetics papers.<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->He has pan Austric (SE Asian) sympathies.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd--> As do I. As an Indian, I have Indian, Tibetan, SE Asian, Iranian, African, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Taiwanese, Australian Aboriginal, Pacific Island, N & S Native American sympathies. (No Christian, Islamic or Commie sympathies, though). I'd like us all to get our sense of self-respect back after being colonised by others. Europe is not really in need of my sympathies as they are affluent and have the upper hand - besides, "Caucasian" seems to mean the same thing as 'god' these days - but I'll defend them if they're verbally abused.
However, I don't think Loganathan is an unbiased source (what does his name mean, Logan sounds distincly English).
See "The Prophet in Hindu scriptures". Sounds familiar to missionary attempts to create that Fifth Veda, the "Yesur Veda" and the recent attempts to predict Jesus' in the Vedas, Gita and everything. Besides this being too funny (as if Mohammed has anything to do with Hinduism, please), Islam is known for writing itself into Zoroastrianism too. To find out if these Islamic prophecies in their own books were true, Zoroastrian scholars came together and examined the parts of their scripture in question, comparing it with earlier copies. They discovered the "Islam" bits were inserted much later. They traced the mischief back to some Muslim during the times of Iran's conquest who wanted to use the sacred Zoroastrian scriptures to convert Zoroastrians. I guess they (adherents of Islam), like missionaries, will lie about anything.
The fact that Loganathan lends any credence to this nonsense says a lot about his sympathies.
More of Logan's nonsense posts:
(Indo-Eurasia) Messianic Aryanism--not Germany only<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Interesting. The messianic Aryan racialim is compared to Brahmanism of the Brahmans who also seek a kind of world domination, messianic in a way and for which reason they deliberately distort history. Thus it is not surprising at all that these two irrationaloties should come to blows.
Loga<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ben Ami, <!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->what does china and japan owe to india, save buddhism ?? <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd--> Buddhism, Hinduism, martial arts, music, acupuncture, tea and a whole bunch of other things. See India and China . It also has a section on the Hindu influence in Japan, besides the familiar Buddhism.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->(G.Subramaniam @ Jan 15 2006, 07:32 PM)
All non-africans are of Indian descent<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
the mongoloids too ??<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->If you are referring to East Asians with that colonial word "mongoloid", then, Yes. That is, according to genetics, East Asians and Indians diverged about 50,000 years ago. That's also around the same time that the genetic divergence between Europeans and Indians is dated. So, we're as related to the Mongolians and Chinese etc as we are to Europeans. We're also related to Africans in the other direction (i.e. going backwards in time).
I'm guessing we are very closely related to the SE Asians.
log = logam = earth
nathan = lord
loganathan = lord of the world - another name of Sri Vishnu / Jagannath.
The name is a Tamil name.
Its a Sanskrit derived name: loka-nAtha
loka can mean world or people.
In Tamil script, whole ka-varga: (k,kh,g,gh) is represented by a single symbol. Therefore one often hears transpositions of k and g.
You can see similar transpositions in "akandabaratam" which is sanskrit derived too from "akhanda-bhAratam". Here "kh" and "bh" are transposed with "k" and "b".
W.r.t. the name "Loganathan", I was dense and see it now. I can't believe I missed the obvious. Thanks.
I think the Loganathan in question should change his name since he has no liking for the religion or the deity.
Euros may look towards Celts to find their ancestors
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Scientists discover most fertile Irish male
By Siobhan Kennedy Tue Jan 17, 10:36 AM ET
DUBLIN (Reuters) - Scientists in Ireland may have found the country's most fertile male, with more than 3 million men worldwide among his offspring.
  Â
The scientists, from Trinity College Dublin, have discovered that as many as one in twelve Irish men could be descended from Niall of the Nine Hostages, a 5th-century warlord who was head of the most powerful dynasty in ancient Ireland.
His genetic legacy is almost as impressive as Genghis Khan, the Mongol emperor who conquered most of Asia in the 13th century and<span style='color:blue'> has nearly 16 million descendants, said Dan Bradley, who supervised the research.</span>
"It's another link between profligacy and power," Bradley told Reuters. "We're the first generation on the planet where if you're successful you don't (always) have more children."
The research was carried out by PhD student Laoise Moore, at the Smurfit Institute of Genetics at Trinity. Moore, testing the Y chromosome which is passed on from fathers to sons, examined DNA samples from 800 males across Ireland.
The results -- which have been published in the American Journal of Human Genetics -- showed the highest concentration of related males in northwest Ireland, where one in five males had the same Y chromosome.
Bradley said the results reminded the team of a similar study in central Asia, where scientists found 8 percent of men with the same Y chromosome. Subsequent studies found they shared the same chromosome as the dynasty linked to Genghis Khan.
GENGHIS KHAN EFFECT
"It made us wonder if there could be some sort of Genghis Khan effect in Ireland and the best candidate for it was Niall," Bradley said.
His team then consulted with genealogical experts who provided them with a contemporary list of people with surnames that are genealogically linked to the last known relative of the "Ui Neill" dynasty, which literally means descendants of Niall.
The results showed the new group had the same chromosome as those in the original sample, proving a link between them and the Niall descendents.
"The frequency (of the Y chromosome) was significantly higher in that genealogical group than any other group we tested," said Bradley, whose surname is also linked to the medieval warlord. Other modern surnames tracing their ancestry to Niall include Gallagher, Boyle, O'Donnell and O'Doherty.
For added proof, the scientists used special techniques to age the Y chromosome, according to how many mutations had occurred in the genetic material over time. The number of mutations was found to be in accordance with chromosomes that would date back to the last known living relative of Niall.
Niall reportedly had 12 sons, many of whom became powerful Irish kings themselves. But because he lived in the 5th century, there have been doubts the king -- who is said to have brought the country's patron saint, Patrick, to Ireland -- even existed.
"Before I would have said that characters like Niall were almost mythological, like King Arthur, but this actually puts flesh on the bones," Bradley said.
When international databases were checked, the chromosome also turned up in roughly 2 percent of all male New Yorkers.
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Hauma Hamiddha,<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->It is not at all clear if Manansala does not have Christian sympathies.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Well, Manansala - unlike many Christians and even non-Christians - admits that Hitler and the Nazis were by and large Christians. American Christians would have you believe all the Nazis were dabbling in the occult (i.e. Eastern religions). The facts are that Hitler and 1/3 of Germany was Catholic, 2/3 of the country was Protestant, with only a very few being atheist or non-Christian. Manansala sets Loganathan's ramblings right here:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akandabara...sage/20256 At least that proves that Manansala is not in blind support of Christianity. I'm led to conclude that he isn't really Christian anymore.
I actually don't suspect his motivations: if he wants SE Asia to get due credit (after all, its history has been ignored for so long by the West, whereas it's among the most important places for civilisation and the history of humans), then I am supportive of the same.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->He has a jealous envy for Brahmins and Indians more generally, a pro-Dalitist sympathy<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd--> He seems to think no more, nor no less of Brahmins than of Indians in general. I say that's a good thing. See Dhu's post #181 of this thread, where he pasted Manansala's statement: "The genetic data itself suggests nothing but that the brahmins are an indigenous caste raised mainly from local R haplotypes".
I've not yet come across his pro-Dalit sympathy in the few posts I've read of his at the akandabaratam link posted by Dhu. But I hope it's in the same vein as my own. I'd like all Indians to have equal rights, not just according to the the law, but also in society. I am certain my opinion on this is shared by all other members on this forum including yourself. So I assume by "pro-Dalitist" sympathy you mean a movement that is anti-Hindu. I haven't seen Manansala trying to denigrate Hindu beliefs, therefore I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt (that his pro-Dalit sympathies agree with my own view on equality).
Hauma, can you refer me to more of Manansala's posts that have led you to have such suspicions about him? I'd like to be more informed and make up my own mind on the matter. Thus far, he seems to be straightforward. I tend to trust SE Asians as much as Indians (excluding the 3Ms).
Sushmita, there is indeed some reason for caution, as stated by Hauma Hamiddha. Another one of Manansala's associates is Clyde Winters, who as an "afrocentrist" propounded, a while back, the theory of black African "Sudroids" authoring the "Harrapan" civilization. This same Clyde Winters, however, did make mincemeat of Farmer when debating the latter over his illiterate harappan theory on the sulekha board itself. Basically, we are seeing the after-effects of 200 years of AIT brainwashing wherein north indians are falsely equated as European-type colonialists and racists in the eyes of the world. I have seen this even with some Chinese who state that they feel more comfortable with South Indians than with "Aryan North Indians" (theasf.net). In my eyes, this entire episode concerning Paul Manansala just proves why Indians must continue to concentrate on the motivations behind the AIT and its sociological origin, effects, etc - this theory has had an unbelievably negative effect upon indian political affairs. Even the Sankaracharya episode perpretrated by the church can be laid at the footsteps of this ridiculous AIT-type theorizing infecting Hindus - which had historically been missing from the Hindu self-consciousness. The Tamil- Sinhala conflict also is due to the AIT theory (or manipulation of this theory by missionaries) as pointed out recently by one aravindan neelakanthan. Even with this theory rejected, we are still left floundering with its almost unfathomable social implications.
btw, Clyde Winters is indeed able to take care of eurocentric claims regarding the Greek civilization. I will always remember one comment of his: something to the effect that "the Acropolis looks like a tin can in front of the magnificence of tel-al-amarna".
01-18-2006, 11:46 AM
(This post was last modified: 01-18-2006, 11:52 AM by Hauma Hamiddha.)
<!--QuoteBegin-Sushmita+Jan 17 2006, 07:11 PM-->QUOTE(Sushmita @ Jan 17 2006, 07:11 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Hauma, can you refer me to more of Manansala's posts that have led you to have such suspicions about him? I'd like to be more informed and make up my own mind on the matter. Thus far, he seems to be straightforward. I tend to trust SE Asians as much as
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you go to a mail forum called Indian Civilization on Yahoo run by a certain Dr. Kalyanaraman you will find some of his ill-informed assertions and Austric supremacy posts (of which I am no longer a member). Of course everyone is entitled to their own views.
As for Steve Oppenheimer mentioned by Dhu and GS: He indeed has been an author on some high profile genetic studies published in some top journals. So there is no doubt he has been involved in important investigations of early human migrations. Nonetheless his pet SE-Asian origin/ Sunda theory is a different more private facet of his work, which is of more mixed value. There are aspects of it which range all the way from plausible, intriguing, to unlikely or overblown. So we cannot uncritically accept all what he states.
I do not think we can generalize about SE Asians or Europeans being more trustworthy. But trust indeed involves a major component of shared culture. Some of this indeed shared with other Asians who were in the Indosphere, but they have been distorted by Abrahmic cults. Likewise, the Abrahamic fervor has also culturally perverted the Europeans. "Racism" as a construct has it roots not in AIT or so much in skin color but in Christianity's exclusivist doctrine. It must be remembered that the native Americans were massacred because Christianity made them inferior. Other things like AIT, or skin differences between Indians were coopted later.
Afro-centrism is some thing we need not really associate with. It is definitely not a correct view of African history. At the same time the institutionalized harrasment of Blacks, and their persistant demeaning/downsizing is something that needs to be recognized and understood. So I am hardly surprised that the Blacks are not happy about the whole situation and resort to Afro-centrism.
Finally, I must say we need not be too enthusiatic about the genetic evidence in relation to testing the AIT. There are lots of inconsistencies in the recent studies discussed here and fine points that will resolve themselves only over the next few years. There are ways of interpreting this data that can still conform to AIT, but for now we wait for more data and see how things clear up.
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