Hindu Narrative

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-SwamyG+May 14 2007, 10:32 PM-->QUOTE(SwamyG @ May 14 2007, 10:32 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Vishwas: Are you suggesting black marketing, tax-evasion.... are hall marks of good behavior?
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SwamyG, what exactly is black-marketing? It is the selling of a product in a free market, away from the prying eyes of government. What is unethical about that?

Same goes for tax evasion.There is no <i>ethical</i> reason to give money to any government. I understand both are illegal. But so what?

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-vishwas+May 15 2007, 03:04 AM-->QUOTE(vishwas @ May 15 2007, 03:04 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-SwamyG+May 14 2007, 10:32 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SwamyG @ May 14 2007, 10:32 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Vishwas: Are you suggesting black marketing, tax-evasion.... are hall marks of good behavior?
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SwamyG, what exactly is black-marketing? It is the selling of a product in a free market, away from the prying eyes of government. What is unethical about that?

Same goes for tax evasion.There is no <i>ethical</i> reason to give money to any government. I understand both are illegal. But so what?
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One gives money to the government, so that the government could do its job. It is unethical to expect government to do its role without providing it with resources. And it ties into one doing business away from the prying eyes of the government.

[Guest]

SwamyG,
Would you consider this unethical, if I give money to poor Priest in temple directly not to Government hundi kept in Temple.

I am clear, I don't want my hard earn money to be given to Madarsa or Haj or construction of Church or conversion or terrorism. I want to give my money to Priest who gets paid only Rs 1500 to look after temple. Do you think that poor priest can support his family and tradition with these wages and Indian government eat money or spend those on appeasement policy? I rather give money to poor man then to “Chors” who are ruling India and sitting on huge bank balance and supporting die-nasty (Gandhi-Nehru family).

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->One gives money to the government, so that the government could do its job. It is unethical to expect government to do its role without providing it with resources. And it ties into one doing business away from the prying eyes of the government.
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This is perhaps not a good discussion for this thread. But, I wonder where your argument will take you.

If the govt decides that the tax that you should pay is 100%, what would be your stand? Would you still consider it unethical to evade that tax? If no, where do you draw the line?

BTW, I am not being very unrealistic when I say 100%. Here is a link of the US tax rates. Read points 2 and 3.

Also, what if India's government was replaced by a <b>dictatorship</b>? Would you still consider it unethical to evade that tax?

[Guest]

My grandmother taught us another lesson through stories, when its ok to tell lie or sometimes telling truth is not right. One story was Rani Padmani and other was Muslim butcher and Cow.
Once upon a time in Punjab, a Muslim butcher/Kasai who was chasing Cow to slaughter, Cow was able to break its rope and ran towards otherside of village. To hide from butcher, Cow entered in Hindu Brahmin’s courtyard. Butcher started asking villagers where his Cow is hiding; some honest people pointed it towards Brahmin’s house. Butcher started calling Priest name and start scaring him and his family, referring him that he will go to Narak if he lies, it is a theft, he will report to Qazi etc. Brahmin stick to his word and told butcher that he had never seen his cow and when he will find one he will bring it to him. Angry butcher left Brahmin’s house. After someday, Cow gave birth to Calf. Now Brahmin was able to give free milk to other village folks and Prasad in temple.

So by telling lie, Brahmin was able to save Cow’s life and help village folks.

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-Mudy+May 15 2007, 03:47 AM-->QUOTE(Mudy @ May 15 2007, 03:47 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->My grandmother taught us another lesson through stories, when its ok to tell lie or sometimes telling truth is not right. One story was Rani Padmani and other was Muslim butcher and Cow. 
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So by telling lie, Brahmin was able to save Cow’s life and help village folks.
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Our very own hubyadiya eh? Very selective ethics.

I guess corrupt babus do illeagal stuff, but there is no ethical pull at the conscience. Selective interpretation of a human contract (i.e. the constitution) is a slippery slope to anarchy.

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Our very own hubyadiya eh? Very selective ethics<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, it's selective.
Let me break it down in black-white terminology (specific to Mudy's post):
hubyadiya to kill = bad
hubyadiya to save lives = good

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-rishi+May 15 2007, 11:52 AM-->QUOTE(rishi @ May 15 2007, 11:52 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->I guess corrupt babus do illeagal stuff, but there is no ethical pull at the conscience. Selective interpretation of a human contract (i.e. the constitution) is a slippery slope to anarchy.
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"Illegal stuff" is a very general term. JP Narayan says the following:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->For some important sections of the Hindu community, piety or religiosity is only a means to obtain divine sanction for unethical behaviour, such as black-marketing, tax-evasion, profiteering, etc.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
which I was disputing. I don't see why black-marketing, tax-evasion, profiteering is unethical behavior.
On the Morality of Black Market activities

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--> don't see why black-marketing, tax-evasion, profiteering is unethical behavior. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Profiteering = capitalism
Tax-evasion = can be part of freedom movement, why pay tax to abusers e.g British Raj.
Black-marketing = Supply and demand problem.

[ramana]

Actually all are taking unfair advantage of position or power. That is why they are unethical.

Sengotuvel, Do you recall the pdfs on Hoyasalas that you posted sometime back? I suggest you read up on "Vijayanagar" by Vasundhara Fillozat, National Book Trust, Rs 80/-. It refers to that family.

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-vishwas+May 15 2007, 03:37 AM-->QUOTE(vishwas @ May 15 2007, 03:37 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->This is perhaps not a good discussion for this thread. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I guess we will have to be kicked out <!--emo&:bcow--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/b_cowboy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='b_cowboy.gif' /><!--endemo-->.

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->But, I wonder where your argument will take you.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Don't you see you are doing a slippery slope argument.

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->If the govt decides that the tax that you should pay is 100%, what would be your stand? Would you still consider it unethical to evade that tax?

BTW, I am not being very unrealistic when I say 100%. Here is a link of the US tax rates. Read points 2 and 3.
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It certainly is unrealistic. #2 and #3 were under difficult and war times. A country needs resources to wage a war.

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->If no, where do you draw the line?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's where democratic norms come in. We talk and thrash out ideas, and take the solution that is best for the situation. I am not advocating 100% tax, all I am saying is government needs taxes to do its job.

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Also, what if India's government was replaced by a <b>dictatorship</b>? Would you still consider it unethical to evade that tax?
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You know they say in Tamil "Abathakku paavam illai" (It is not a sin for dangerous times).

I am saying it is wrong to kill, and you are asking what if somebody was going to attack you? Defending and in the process killing is a different issue, right? So seems our arguments.

[Guest]

I could not access India-Forum at all from yesterday evening. Just wonderin if any other forum member also faced the same problem?

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->I could not access India-Forum at all from yesterday evening. Just wonderin if any other forum member also faced the same problem?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<b>Sorry, System was down yesterday.</b>

[acharya]

This thread has increased the traffic to the site and overloaded the website.

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->This thread has increased the traffic to the site and overloaded the website. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Election, Politics and Newshopper threads had increased traffic and exceeded limit.

[Guest]

Folks, I need etymology on the following saying in tamil "Dooshtanai kandal dura villagu" - translation: Keep away from a vile/evil person. I have heard it being pluralized too - "Doosht<b>arai</b> kandal dura villagu" - translation: Keep away from vile/evil <b>people</b>.

I know the meaning (duh, I translated it <!--emo&--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tongue.gif' /><!--endemo--> ), I am just looking for any sort of background information on this saying. Where does it come from? Who coined it? What was the motivation etc....

[Guest]

http://www.orientalthane.com/science/new...4_23_1.htm
vedanta and physics
http://www.siddha.com.my/cgi-bin/postings....ems&replyto=309

<b>[Edited - same content was posted atleast 5 times in last 3 months, Link will work this time.
Thanks
-Moderator]</b>

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-SwamyG+May 16 2007, 05:41 PM-->QUOTE(SwamyG @ May 16 2007, 05:41 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->in tamil "Dooshtanai kandal dura villagu" - translation: Keep away from a vile/evil person. I have heard it being pluralized too - "Doosht<b>arai</b> kandal dura villagu" - translation: Keep away from vile/evil <b>people</b>
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I am not sure about etymology, although at least two words - DuSTa and dUra are in sanskrit. villagu - might have something to do with 'vilag' dhatu (which means 'to separate', and from which probably the Hindi 'alag' came). I don't know what villagu means in Tamil though.

But there is one saying attributed to Sri Rahimdas, which means the same thing:

Rahiman ochhe naran se preeti karahu na vair
kaaTe chaaTe swaan ke doonahu kushal bagair

[O Rahim, dont engage with lowly <b>people</b>, neither in love nor in hate
Getting bitten by a dog, or getting licked, either are far from any good]

But at another place, in another context same Rahimdasji says:

kah Rahim uttam prakriti, kaa kari sakat kusang
chandan vish vyaapat nahi, lipaTe rahat bhujang

[Say Rahim, for those of highest nature, what can the bad company do?
(like) Sandal never become poisonous, although embrced by verminous snakes.]

In my mind, the latter only applies to those of the highest nature, not to common folks. For common folks, Rahim's advice is the earlier one. Keep away from bad company. Keep away from evil <b>people</b> he explicitly said.

[Guest]

I don't think it is correct to do an equal-equal between Hindu teaching and Hudaibiya. it's not as simple as that.

In fact one of the primal references to telling a lie for a good purpose is in the Mahabharata - with reference to Ashwathama's death. Yudisthira's chariot - that does not touch the ground on account of his eternal truthfulness (I think) gets back to ground level when he utters the white lie about Ashwathama's death - when in fact an elephant by that name was killed.

The important point here is that lying is wrong - and there will always be some karmic consequence that will follow from that. Telling lies is not free. So in actual fact I do not believe there is any Hindu "sanction" for lying.

However, as always in Hinduism, there is realization that people do lie, and sometimes may be forced to lie (in the manner that Yudisthira was forced to lie). Under the circumstances there is usually a means explaining that or atoning for that lie by some means. It could be an act of worship, or penance - or a simple "rationalization" that when you were forced to lie to someone that lie was forced out of you perhaps because you were destined to lie to that person at that time due to some event in earlier lives involving the two of you. Either you are repaying an old debt, or you are building up a debt that you will repay in a later life.

But no. The lie is not free as in Hudaibiya.

[Guest]

Ultimately - and no matter how painful the truth may be, lies are not allowed in Hinduism. Lies and untruth are the path to ignorance. The religion is old enough to be very comprehensive in its depth and breadth, but has had the time to mature and come up with stunning summaries of what it's all about.

I am referring to:

Asatoma sadgamaya (lead me from a-sat, untruth, to satya (truth)
Tamasoma jyotirgamaya (lead me from tamas, darkness, to jyoti, light)
mrutyorma amritamgamaya (lead me from mrityu, death/mortality, to a-mrita (immortality)

Lies may require to be told, but your ultimate goal is via no lies. Untruth will only get you as far as hudaibiya got anyone.