Christian subversion and missionary activities

01-26-2007, 06:06 PM

Dated article.

QUOTECatholic priests seek to adopt Hindu rituals 

Wednesday, October 26, 2005 (Pune):

A gathering of leading Catholic clergymen from all over India have asked the Vatican to endorse their proposal to include Hindu rituals in the church.

The Pune Papal seminary said priests from all over India were unanimous that the Catholic clergy must incorporate Hindu practices like performing aarti during mass, studying Sanskrit and the Vedas, and experiencing ashram life.

The Catholic Church's Indianisation process began in the mid 1960s, when a revolutionary council introduced local traditions and practices like mass in regional languages.

Four decades later, the Catholic Church feels there is a need to give that process a fresh emphasis. 

"The Catholic Church plans to adopt a number of Indian traditions and practices, which will give us a feel of being an Indian," said Father Ornellas Coutinho, Rector, Pune Papal Seminary.

Countering arguments

After producing four cardinals, 69 bishops and over 11,000 priests during the past 50 years, the Catholic Church in India is now stressing for lesser control from the Vatican to make it truly Indian and genuinely Christian.

The priests say one of the reasons for making these changes official is to neutrailise the arguments of the Hindu right-wingers, who often charge the church with forcible conversions and negating Indian traditions. 

"It would definitely put a check on the so-called fundamentalists who keep blaming us for conversions," said Father Lionell Mascarenhas, a priest.

The final word now rests with the Vatican, and if the initiative gets the nod, it may well redefine the practices of the Church in India.

01-26-2007, 06:21 PM

QUOTEGod cannot be 'imported,' God must be 'incarnated'
By Janina Gomes
May 6, 2004
http://www.nationalcatholicreporter.org/gl...rs/gp050604.htm

MUMBAI, India -- The Second Vatican Council initiated a revolution 40 years ago. Its document Sacrosanctum Concilium recognized that the church had become a world-church characterized by pluralism. The liturgy was opened to different languages and adaptations for different cultures of the world.

Ten years later the term inculturation was applied to this process. According to Fr. Michael Amaladoss, a leading Indian theologian and an expert on inculturation, though the official church in the name of liturgical reform has cleared away accretions that accumulated over history, substantial creativity has not been encouraged apart from some local external decorative elements permitted in India and the Congo.

A 12-point plan for adapting the liturgy with certain elements of Indian worship was put together by experts and the Indian bishops issued guidelines. The points suggested using certain postures during liturgy, such as squatting, anjali hasta (hands folded in prayer) and panchanga pranam (a full prostration with forehead touching the ground), arati as a form of welcome or worship; incorporating different objects, such as shawls, trays, oil lamps, and a simple incense bowl with handles; as well as different gestures, such as touching objects to one's forehead instead of kissing them.

When these Indian adaptations began to be used, reactions ranged from enthusiastic welcome to strong criticism, according to Jesuit Fr. Julian Saldanha, a professor of theology at St. Pius X seminary in Mumbai.

Saldanha said: "There was wider acceptance in the northern dioceses than in the southern ones. The 12 points were more welcome in villages than in urban areas. They were better accepted in institutions or certain groups, e.g., religious houses, than in parishes. It was found that youth take to them more easily than adults. The opposition was greater to those adaptations which more strongly remind the people of non-Christian worship." These included, for example, saffron shawls, squatting during liturgy, and using a samai (oil lamp) instead of candles, according to Saldanha.

Terence Fonn from the Ministry of Gospel Sharing for Small Christian Communities in the Mumbai archdiocese says westernized Catholics fixed in their ways of thinking opposed the changes. "For them the liturgy is often simply a ritual. If they are to change, they need to be re-educated."

Fonn quoted a writer who said that God cannot be "imported"; God must be "incarnated." "We have just imported westernized forms of Christianity," he said. "If Christ had been born in India, maybe he would have called himself "Gopal" or protector of cows [an epithet of Krishna] rather than the Good Shepherd. Real inculturation means transforming a culture with the values of the Gospel," he said. 

Joaquim Reis, a lawyer for the Bombay High Court and the Supreme Court, organizes the Deepen Your Faith Theology courses for the laity in Mumbai. He also emphasizes the importance of re-education. "If the signs and symbols used are Indian and part of our cultural heritage and if they are not opposed to any of our Christian beliefs, if they bring a person closer to God and their faith, we should encourage their use," he said. But he adds that for some Indian Christians already infused with western culture "it is necessary to educate them in the need for inculturation."

He also cautions that the journey to truth must be made with the correct methodology, so that the signs and symbols through which we encounter God fits with the Christian understanding of God. The way Hindus and Muslims understand God may be different, he said.

Inculturation is sometimes identified with mere adaptations to the liturgy, says Thomas Dabre, the bishop of Vasai and chairperson of the inculturation committee of the western regional council of bishops. He calls for a deeper interpretation of inculturation.

Dabre wrote in the Mumbai archdiocesan weekly, The Examiner, "Some have reduced inculturation to some cultural practices like arati, dance, squatting â¦ While these things have their symbolic significance, authentic and comprehensive inculturation is as wide as the life of the people around us."

Amaladoss makes a case for a church presence in public festivals and for a more conscious exploration of the possibility of using scriptures and symbols of other religions and interpreting them in the Christian/Catholic faith context. Amaladoss says: "For me, Hinduism is not another religion. It is part of my own heritage. It is the religion of my ancestors. God has reached out to my ancestors through it. So I do not look at its scriptures, symbols and methods as something foreign to me. I have the right and the liberty to integrate them as part of my spiritual tradition."

Divine Word Fr. Sebastian Michael, professor of anthropology at the University in Mumbai and a member on the western bishops' committee for inculturation says: "The intellectual articulation of Christian faith in theology must be expressed emotionally in the Indian culture through well thought out and theologically sound popular devotions, pilgrimages, observances of fasts, processions, parish feasts, bhajan singing [Indian popular devotional songs] and passion plays."

"Christians could also articulate rites of passage without alienation from the Indian context since the most important events in a culture are the rites of passage," he says.

He also argues that in India inculturation should not be Hinduization or Sanskritization of Chrisitan life. The pluralistic culture of India should be the basis of inculturation. The Indian church must recognize, appreciate and empower the regional cultures and symbolic cultural creativity of tribals, dalits, sudras (lower castes), and other minorities as well as upper castes.

While many Catholics, specially in the old centers of Christianity, remain opposed to any changes in the liturgy in the Roman form, many clergy and groups are experimenting with adaptations to the liturgy in more private services.

The term inculturation is also better understood today than before. In a multicultural and pluralistic society like India, clinging to Roman forms of expression in insubstantials makes less sense to a growing number of Catholics.

Those who are opposed to any form of change do feel threatened by inculturation. Many who welcome change, on the other hand, would suggest going beyond the 12-point plan and finding a more Indian way of expressing themselves in Christian worship and in life. 


Am telling ya'all, Hinduism will absorb them eventually.... <img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='laugh.gif' /> If they do half the job, why not? (Playing DA here)

Husky · (This post was last modified: 01-27-2007, 06:16 AM by Husky.)

QUOTEa more Indian way of expressing themselves in Christian worship and in life.There is no Indian way of expressing christianity, simply because christianity is alien to India and there's nothing Indian about it. (That it is also alien to nature itself is the general case, but I'm here contenting myself to the single case of India.) That is why all attempts at an 'Indian' expression of christianity turns out to be stealing Hindu religious rituals, sacred mantas, names, clothes, and other expressions of Hinduness.
These Roman Catholic christos are repeatedly equating India/Indian culture with Hinduism, although they do so subconciously. But I'm not complaining about this particular trend of theirs <!--emo& Smile

--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' />, because for once (and only this once) they are right - wholly by accident, of course.

QUOTEIf Christ had been born in India, maybe he would have called himself "Gopal" or protector of cows [an epithet of Krishna] rather than the Good Shepherd.Sad, sad people, christos. Maybe Non-existent would have called himself Gospel rather than Gopal? Why not, since he doesn't exist, I can conjecture about the character just like they can.

QUOTEvalues of the GospelNearly fell off the chair laughing. 'Values'? <img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/ROTFL.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='ROTFL.gif' /> Christian values - exhibited by the faithful followers of the Gospels throughout history: theft of others' religious expressions, bribing people to convert and failing that genociding them into conversion.

Ze Holy Roman Church should learn from its own past: inculturation never worked in Rome. Sure they tried it, they tried it forever. It never got them many converts. There was a certain minimum amount of converts they got: the convertibles. But the rest of the Roman masses in the entire Empire remained forever inconvertible through either inculturation or bribe.
The only area where inculturation helped a little was in retaining some converts, but even that didn't stop many from leaving again to return to the Old (and True) Roman Religion.

As it happened, many arguments broke out between the religious-culture thieves (the christos) and the Romans. The christos as always made themselves unpopular because of their unethical, immoral and downright ridiculous means of trying to make their odious religion attractive to the completely contented non-christians.
In some part of the Levant-y region, the God Attis' birthday and resurrection used to be celebrated at the same times as it had been for centuries. (Following copy-paste from http://freetruth.50webs.org/B1c.htm#Attis )
QUOTE<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE[Attis] was a god of ever-reviving vegetation. Born of a virgin, he died and was reborn annually. The festival began as a day of blood on Black Friday and culminated after three days in a day of rejoicing over the resurrection.
-- Religions of the World, by Gerald L. Berry (1956)His death and resurrection were celebrated during Easter:
QUOTEAttis was a son of the virgin Nana. His birth was celebrated on December 25. He was sacrificed as an adult in order to bring salvation to mankind. He died about March 25, after being crucified on a tree, and descended for three days into the underworld. On Sunday, he arose, as the solar deity for the new season. His followers tied an image of Attis to a tree on "Black Friday," and carried him in a procession to the temple. His body was symbolically eaten by his followers in the form of bread. Worship of Attis began in Rome circa 200 BCE.Link
In countries where Attis was revered, Christians took 25 March as the fixed date of Jesus' crucifixion (in contrast to the shifting dates on which they held Easter in other countries). They vied for the same resurrection date as that of Attis, trying to take over his celebration in order to claim the followers of Attis for Christ. In these countries:
QUOTE"[Christians] used to celebrate the death and resurrection of Jesus on the same date; and pagans and Christians used to quarrel bitterly about which of their gods was the true prototype and which the imitation." -- Religions of the World, by Gerald L. Berry</div>No historian on religion and mythos today questions whose celebrations were earlier and were the original. The religious-culture thieves then were, as they are now, the christos. Nothing original about them and nothing too low for them to stoop too.
It was not only Attis about whom fights broke out. Regular Romans also hated christos not only for setting fire to their temples and other sabotage and the constant flow of insults to their Gods, but also for stealing from Roman religion. Christos were unpopular rabble precisely for their intolerance-and-yet inculturating mentality.

Jeebus of christianity, of the gospels, may have been non-existent, but the characters of his followers (which has been consistent these 1800+ years) says a lot about the kind of behaviour this central character inspired. No good came of his invention.

http://freetruth.50webs.org/A1.htm
QUOTEAccording to Roman sources, the Christians ...in Rome ...were considered a small, uneducated group of religious troublemakers from the lowest social classes, operating in the shadowy sides of society.
Link  http://freetruth.50webs.org/B3b.htm QUOTEthe cold historical truth is that we cannot admit more than two, or at the most three, "general persecutions." So Professor Gwatkin, the ecclesiastical historian of Cambridge University (England), sums up the matter in the authoritative "Dictionary of Religion and Ethics." We may be content with his verdict, and need not draw upon the more radical, and sometimes strained, criticism which reduces the persecutions still further. Decius and Diocletian, in the third and fourth centuries, set afoot general persecution. Valerian, in the third century, possibly did the same, in milder terms. The rest is mob-movements locally against the unpopular Christians.QUOTEWhy Rome, one of the most tolerant of powers, persecuted... 
Christianity was detested mainly for three reasons.
First, and from the start, because its meetings were secret, and generally by night; so they were put down as orgies if not conspiracies.
Secondly, the Christians spoke with infinite scorn of the beliefs of their pagan neighbors, of the official deities of Rome.
Thirdly, as time went on, because in proportion as the difficulties of the Empire increased, the Christians became increasingly disloyal, refusing service and almost exulting in its enfeeblement.Throughout history, the christos then feign innocence and wonder why they were unpopular and why local people eventually got enough of their pyromania, general destruction, insults and inculturation. They flatter themselves and imagine it's because they were so good and their babbling book tells them they will be persecuted for following jeebus' 'virtuous' ways. Of course not. When they move beyond the self-conceit instilled by their ideology, they'll see the answer is staring them in the face.

They ought to face it: if they want to convert Hindus and other non-christoislamic Indians, christos have to adopt the only method that ever worked in history. It's the tried-and-true Christoislamic Way: Genocide. Look how it performed non-existent jeebus/gawd's own miracle in Rome and Greece, the rest of Europe and now Nagaland. The other Indian christos ought to embrace their christianity in full too. <img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif' />
Or, if they long for Indian culture because they feel isolated in their christoterrorism, they should return to the Dharmic religions. Their fraud of inculturating Hinduism (or Buddhism) will never be recognised.

Husky · (This post was last modified: 01-27-2007, 05:49 AM by Husky.)

And one more thing.

From post 216: QUOTEThe mantra 'aum yeshu christuve namaha'Aum (also spelled as Om) stands for the Hindu understanding of the Divine.
I told my formerly christian friend about how christos have now tried to appropriate Pongal which is a Hindu festival dedicated to Surya, when we thank Surya for the bountiful harvest He has given us. And I also summarised what I remembered of the contents of post 216.
He said drily: 'They're going Straight to Hell' <!--emo& Tongue

--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tongue.gif' /> - at least, he explained, this is what both his former reverends would say. Since his church was baptist, they don't approve of inculturation. They think Hindu religion is evil and therefore appropriating bits of 'Indian (that is Hindu) culture' is like importing demonic rituals.
Maybe Indian christos should reconsider their strategy: after all, there's some significant chance that their very Salvation is at stake. Is making a handful of converts worth Eternal Damnation...
Just cause the present Papa in Rome says it's okay, should you believe him? The Popes have never been reliable - see http://freetruth.50webs.org/C2b.htm . The Pontiff will say anything to get more converts who will eventually enrichen his coffers, even sacrifice the very souls of his followers to do so. That's why other christian denominations don't follow Popes. Maybe Indian christos need to rethink this inculturation enterprise they've blindly embarked on.

Bodhi · (This post was last modified: 01-27-2007, 06:06 AM by Bodhi.)

Had a chance to visit one of the Self Realization Fellowship temples in the USA(organization was founded by Sri Paramahansa Yoganandaji).

In SRF center, the priest wears the robe like a Catholic priest, though in saffron colour. The temple architecture looks exactly like a church, from outside and inside. People sit in the rows of chairs, in front of the altar, just like Church. Altar has the images of both Sri Krishna and Jesus. Pose of Jesus is much like Krishna too. Priest delivers the sermon, though based upon Gita and Vedanta, but in same fashion as Catholic priest would do.

Not sure howmuch and what impact that had made though.

So, the idea was exactly what these people are trying to do, in a reverse direction.

Later: Also not a new idea. Robert de Nobili had tried his best to do it in South India and Sri Lanka in the 17th century, as explained in one of Husky's earlier posts. He failed miserably and died as a disappointed man. However the difference is, he had tried to do this on the plane of theology and philosophy and targets were half-learned Brahmins. This time, the folks are attempting this at the level of symbols, appearances and rituals. Target are common public with sentimental roots into these symbols.

Husky · (This post was last modified: 01-27-2007, 09:33 AM by Husky.)

QUOTEIn SRF center, the priest wears the robe like a Catholic priest, though in saffron colour. The temple architecture looks exactly like a church, from outside and inside. People sit in the rows of chairs, in front of the altar, just like Church. Altar has the images of both Sri Krishna and Jesus. Pose of Jesus is much like Krishna too. Priest delivers the sermon, though based upon Gita and Vedanta, but in same fashion as Catholic priest would do.Sounds like Hindu dhimmitude, wanting to be accepted as a religion on equal footing with christoislamism. Was it Brahmosamaj (sp?) that thought there's only one God and wanted to reform Hinduism to become more like christianity? Whatever the movement was, it reminds me of that.

What's wrong with our way? Ok, Indian clothes and Indian buildings may not be suited to the climate of the US, but why not just hire a regular building, like a schoolroom in the weekend, and just wear the Hindu religious clothes for the prayer and rituals. Certain kinds of clothes are prescribed for our rituals, after all. And they're not the robes of a Catholic-priest or a protestant reverend or anything.

QUOTEAltar has the images of both Sri Krishna and JesusSad. What does jeebus have to do with us? Or is this infiltration? Some Hindu organisations and centres taken over by christos in India also put up pictures of jeebus and start confusing Hindus by saying he's the same as our Gods. (Eventually the pictures of the Hindu Gods are removed of course.) Some unknowing Hindus have indeed been saying jeebus is like an incarnation of God, to make Hindus accept christians and understand them - but it's a confused, Hindu, understanding of christianity. Anyway, Hindus generally don't put any pictures of jeebus up though, from my experience. What's up here?

Bharatvarsh · 01-27-2007, 06:48 AM

QUOTESounds like Hindu dhimmitude, wanting to be accepted as a religion on equal footing with christoislamism. 
It is dhimmitude, I wish Hindus were smart enough to come up with inculturation tricks but Ramakrishna mission seems to have moved away from it's moorings in later years, Vivekananda wanted them to popularise Vedanta and explicity stated that they were Hindus, but now some of them go around claiming that Ramakrishna founded a "new universal faith", this is probably a symptom of that.

Not all of them are like that, infact I think some on our forum are associated with the mission and they are very knowledgable Hindus.

Husky · (This post was last modified: 01-27-2007, 09:30 AM by Husky.)

QUOTERamakrishna missionI'd never speak ill of Ramakrishna Paramahamsa or Vivekananda, both very Hindu. The Ramakrishna Mission is also very Hindu. Many of my Hindu books are written and published by them. They are never ashamed to mention all the Gods, and they don't focus on just Shiva or just Krishna or just Devi ... , but are enthusiastic about presenting all of them. Okay, they translate Samskritam 'Devas' as 'Gods' or 'gods' in English, but I think this had already started this during end-British period and so they continued to keep it up for consistency.

QUOTEbut now some of them go around claiming that Ramakrishna founded a "new universal faith"Isn't this only in Bengal where they don't want to be terrorised by the communists or have their organisations taken over by the government, because the government does this to all Hindu organisations and temples in the rest of India? Neither Ramakrishna nor Vivekananda ever founded a religion. They were Hindus, being Hindu in their lives and popularising Hinduism. Ramakrishna's way was one path of the Sanatana Dharma. Can't think of anyone but the pseculars who could be trying to appropriate him for some fake cause they dub 'universal'. Sanatana Dharma is universal in the true sense of the word, but it's wrong when any part of it is called a 'new universal faith' and made to appear separate from its whole self, or when it's used to project it against the rest of Hinduism.

EDIT: On another matter, there's another form of Hindu dhimmitude that permeates much of our society. I have a book on the 1000 names of Mahavishnu (not Ramakrishna Mission). The author takes a page to explain each name. All of a sudden I found that at one point, he was trying to reason why some Hindu ritual or saying was quite alright, since it was in line with the 'great' thinking of the catholic 'mystic' saint Teresa of Avila. Ignoring what weird, disgusting people those mystic saints were (see http://freetruth.50webs.org/C1.htm#Existed and look for "St Teresa of Avila"), why do Hindu expressions need reference to christianity or islam to validate them? And - when there are so many respectable belief systems in the world - why those two religions? It's always only christoislamism that Hindu authors choose to bring in as some kind of comparable examples. The examples are often utterly irrelevant; and sometimes, as in the case of the Teresa of Avila error mentioned above, the authors are unwittingly connecting the sacred with the icky. Just because catholics say Teresa of Avila was great, or because christoislamics say so-and-so was brilliant, doesn't mean we should blindly accept their assertions. First we must find out who these people are, what they believed and did, and then, if they are really worthwhile (never have been so far) and relevant, one can include them.
Still, best to keep away from religions whose primary objective in India is to destroy Hinduism and replace it with their own. Instead, it's good to get the copious examples available from Shintoism or Taoism or other natural religions to point out similarities with. Not as some need to get some kind of external validation of our beliefs, but to tell Hindus that we are not alone, and that truly great thinkers of other natural religions had also come to the same conclusions during different times. This is what I'd like to see in the coming generations of Hindu books (written by Hindu authors of course).

Bodhi · (This post was last modified: 01-27-2007, 09:38 AM by Bodhi.)

Regarding my intent in post 225. Probably I should have clarified it there to avoid confusion. My intent was limited to submitting that, the early Hindu/Vedantic missions in the west (the one I had mentioned, was established in 1930s), with object of popularizing Vedant/Yog philosophy to the westerns, had adopted the similar technique, as we notice in the strategy of the Christian missions in India. That is: avoid cultural conflicts, instead, utilize the prevalent symbols, language, social outlook, even appearances.

I wish to also clarify that the center I had mentioned is run not by the Indians/NRIs, nor meant particularly for the Indians, though it claims to have the lineage linked back to Adi Sankar. The center, as I noticed, is actually managed and run mostly by the westerners and is more popular amongst westerners. The priests, volunteers, as well as attendees were mostly white and some black people, with some Indians here and there. Also, it has no links to Ramakrishna Mission, though might be inspired by it.

To help the thread back to the topic, below from the link given by Acharya in other thread:

QUOTEChristian Europe as it was taking shape first grew in opposition to and later in forgetfulness of Greek culture. Christian Europe in its early period used Greek language and Greek philosophy to establish itself; then it attacked ferociously Greek culture; it destroyed Greek literature, its schools and libraries. The work of destruction was so complete that even the memory of Plato and Socrates was obliterated and for a thousand years Christian Europe grew in complete ignorance of what it calls its classical antiquity.

When Greek learning revived again, it was too late for it to exert a living influence on anyone. It had died as a living tradition and it was now a thing belonging to museums and libraries and was a topic only for learned dissertations. But even in this form, it began to invite fierce opposition. The Reformation was a revolt against the classical Renaissance, a "reaction of backward minds", or a "protest of antiquated spirits", as Nietzsche saw it. The call to go back to the Bible and to Jehovah was in a very deep sense a repudiation of the Greek tradition, whether spiritual or intellectual. Today what Europe calls the Greek learning is not the learning as it was seen by the Greeks, but as it is understood by the Europeans through their own categories of thought. To the Greeks, Homer and its Gods were great realities, part and parcel of their lives; to Europeans of the Renaissance period, they were legends and interesting tales.

Even earlier, during the first centuries of Christianity, it was clear that the Greek and Christian approaches to the life of the spirit were incompatible and Christianity waged a relentless war against the Greco-Roman approach; and when the Greek learning revived again, the old incompatibility was still there undiminished. But if the Greek learning still found a certain receptivity the reason was that by this time, it was totally misunderstood and misconceived. For any truly classical revival, Christian soil was very inhospitable indeed.

http://www.voi.org/books/ohrr/ch04.htm

Husky · (This post was last modified: 02-01-2007, 12:16 PM by Husky.)

Sorry for taking it back to that topic Bodhi, but I have another remark:
QUOTEwith object of popularizing Vedant/Yog philosophy to the westerns, had adopted the similar technique, as we notice in the strategy of the Christian missions in India. That is: avoid cultural conflicts, instead, utilize the prevalant symbols, language, social outlook, even appearances. I understand then. For non-Indians to do it this way and in a western setting it makes sense. Because 30s America was essentially very christian, and christian society (even today) has certain norms. To fit Hindu religion in, it would have made sense for them to have taken on the external appearances of a recognised religion. I wouldn't have approved if Indian Hindus did this though.

But for the Christian Church to do this in India, where pluralism has always been the case, where diversity of worship has been respected and given complete freedom - it points only in one direction. And it's not innocent. The Catholic Church under the Portuguese expressly forbade all Hindu forms. The church has now not just allowed it, but is active in using it. They are not doing it for the innocent purposes of making the religion 'Indian' (then why latch onto particularly Hindu and Buddhist forms). The average Hindu is not going to like this, whereas we never had a problem with a western christian church, their candles, their robes, or liturgy in Latin (as was the case in the past). It's a foreign religion, and if it had returned our respect, it could have kept foreign expressions (like the Parsees did, for instance). And if they had been respectful, I'd have considered them no less Indian for being christian and for practising a foreign religion.

EDIT: But the christian church's congregation never grows when it and its members go about worshipping their chosen deity (non-existent or no) quietly. No one will be interested. That's why the church thrives on controversy, creating friction, creating sob tales of persecution: it has to be in your face. If Hindus don't do anything back, they will just turn up their annoyance a notch each time, so that eventually we have to notice. Same thing all over the world. For instance, the Buddhists in 16th century China didn't mind about the growing christoterrorist population there, until it affected their own lives and undermined them. The Buddhists in Vietnam didn't protest christianity until the christoterrorist government started discriminating against Buddhism. In India, inculturation is only one of the strategies the church uses to get christianity noticed. And it's helped by the government which wants christoislamism (or communism) to be our only other option after it has brainwashed us out of Hinduism.

If the christians in India and their church minded its own business (and stopped proselytising) there'd have been no problems, but they first (and still) insult our religion, denounce Samskritam as a language imposed by tyrants that has supposedly done irreparable harm to the 'Dravidians, Dalits, lower castes, tribals', and then they steal Samskritam terms and other Vedic things for use in their conversion strategy.
They negate these Hindu things in our own possession, and then steal it to make it theirs. It's now supposedly merely 'Indian', therefore it can be appropriated to become 'christian', part of some 'Indian christian' culture that never existed and can only become when they take Hinduism out of existence. Oh, and we're communalist for telling them to keep their hands off.

Shambhu · 01-27-2007, 10:24 AM

Another tubelight moment (via Husky) that I had almost missed:

QUOTEIf Christ had been born in India, maybe he would have called himself "Gopal" or protector of cows [an epithet of Krishna] rather than the Good Shepherd.

Yes onlee father Christo..and then this GopaloKrist would have protected cows for CristoHindus and slaughtered them for the true blue-eyed Cristos, no? Amazing onlee, this KristoGopal. <!--emo& Tongue

--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tongue.gif' />

01-27-2007, 10:37 AM

<!--emo&

--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' />

Shambhu · 01-28-2007, 01:42 AM

<img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/b_cowboy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='b_cowboy.gif' />
Awwright! One more cristo-priesto has shown the way for mankind onlee: FOX is reporting that Father Cheney or Chiennee or something has run away (in a pickup truck) to escape the police. The father is suspected to have abducted and assaulted a girl in his church. I think the father is running away to avoid all the other priests, who must be like, "who is this %^&$&* who goes after *girls* and not boys? This is a disgrace. Jesus-o-Akbar.."

01-29-2007, 02:44 AM

Buddhism under siege in S. Korea

Husky · (This post was last modified: 01-29-2007, 05:05 AM by Husky.)

QUOTE(k.ram @ Jan 29 2007, 02:44 AM)Buddhism under siege in S. Korea[right][snapback]63700[/snapback][/right]It's not just Korea's Buddhism that is attacked by christianity and its faithful followers. I've been told (and shown photos in my friend's personal collection) of how christianity has been destroying even ancient road-side shrines of the Korean religion. Nothing is too small or negligible for the Korean christos, they go out of their way to destroy, burn or otherwise vandalise all pertaining to the native religions of Korea. Buddhism is more organised there, which would explain the well-documented site Buddhapadia (post 234).
But people of the ancient Korean Religion also have had to contend with regular slurs against their beliefs: christolying about the meaning of various Gods/Spirits, rituals, beliefs.

Animism is an insult when hurled from the christoislamic side, but when one looks at all the religions categorised as such, you find out how they have such good things to recommend them. 'Animism' in this way gets a meaning that far outgrows its narrow christoterrorist definition and becomes rather complimentary. Will try to take it as a compliment when next I read some accusation of Hinduism being an Animist religion - after all, there's such good company to be found in this category.

01-29-2007, 09:32 AM

QUOTE
http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?art_id=qw...663953B264
Christians seek guidelines to spread faith 
By Tom Heneghan, Religion Editor
Paris - Christians are told to make disciples of all nations, but some missionaries have done this so aggressively in recent years that churches now want a code of conduct to spread their faith without antagonising any others.

A missionary boom in developing countries, often by United States evangelical and Pentecostal Protestants, has brought Christianity into some local conflicts with majority populations that follow faiths such as Islam, Hinduism and Buddhism.

Overzealous preachers stand accused of linking humanitarian aid with baptism and insulting local faiths. Some local Christian minorities, who lived in peace before the boom, now feel a backlash as suspicion mounts against all Christians.

Representatives from the main families of the world's largest faith met in Geneva last week to discuss guidelines to curb aggressive evangelists and reassure other religions that Christian activists are not simply out to steal their sheep.

"Due to increased proselytism in some parts of the Christian family, the fibre of living together is jeopardised," said the Rev. Hans Ucko, a Swedish Lutheran in charge of inter religious dialogue at the Geneva-based World Council of Churches (WCC).

Christian leaders at the meeting, part of a three-year effort aiming to produce a code of conduct by 2009, sought a balance that would let them continue spreading their faith without discrediting it and antagonising other religions.

The meeting brought together an unusually broad spectrum of Christianity, from Roman Catholics and the WCC - which groups mainline Protestants, Anglicans and Orthodox - to the World Evangelical Alliance and Pentecostal leaders.

Tensions over missionary work have flared up over the past decade or so in several regions, most notably in Africa, South Asia and in the Muslim world, as globalisation opened up new avenues for religions to spread their views.

"India and Sri Lanka are two countries that have become very sensitive to this issue," said Monsignor Felix Machado, the Vatican's representative in the discussion.

Hindu nationalists in India have passed anti-conversion laws in some states to stop what they say are missionaries bribing poor people to get baptised. In Sri Lanka, Buddhist nationalists have campaigned - so far in vain - for similar laws.

"Aid evangelisation" - helping disaster victims if they become Christian - frayed nerves in post-tsunami Indonesia to the point that Jakarta blocked a US evangelical group from placing orphaned Muslim children into a Christian-run home.

The post-tsunami aid rush to Indonesia showed not only Christians help the poor with a possible double agenda. Radical Islamic groups also turned up in mostly Muslim Aceh province.

Catholics and mainline Protestants have long accused well-financed evangelical and Pentecostal missionaries of angering majority faiths in the developing world.

By discussing the issue for the first time, both sides saw this problem was less pressing than the tensions created by fire and brimstone sermons broadcast over satellite television, said Thomas Schirrmacher of the World Evangelical Alliance.

"The main problem is the international, almost exclusively American media," he said. "They are not linked to local churches and have no idea what effect their broadcasts have.

"I was in India when Pat Robertson said all Muslims should leave the United States," he said, referring to a prominent US televangelist. "The Hindus said they agreed that Muslims should leave India too - and take the Christians with them."Â <!--emo& Big Grin

--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' />

A spokesperson for Robertson said "The 700 Club," where Robertson has made his most controversial comments about Islam, was only a small part of his satellite broadcasting and most of it was "both culturally sensitive and relevant."Â  <!--emo& Big Grin

--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /> <!--emo& Big Grin

--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' />

Husky · (This post was last modified: 01-30-2007, 04:16 AM by Husky.)

QUOTE(Mudy @ Jan 29 2007, 09:32 AM)<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE
http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?art_id=qw...663953B264
Christians seek guidelines to spread faith [right][snapback]63712[/snapback][/right]</div>This is their '3 steps forward two steps back' method: when they have gone so far that they have become noticeable in their always invariably destructive ways, they regroup to check themselves, and try to come up with means of conversion that are different and other people won't catch onto immediately. Nothing is sincere about them.

QUOTEChristians are told to make disciples of all nations, but some missionaries have done this so aggressively in recent years that churches now want a code of conduct to spread their faith without antagonising any others.Too late.

QUOTERepresentatives from the main families of the world's largest faith met in Geneva last week to discuss guidelines to curb aggressive evangelists and reassure other religions that Christian activists are not simply out to steal their sheep.No, their typically loud and obnoxious behaviour so far was in a way a good thing for us 'unsaved', 'heathen', 'animistic' folks. At least we know what low depths they will go to - the same they have always gone for. It's made some sit up and notice and see what christianity really is like.

QUOTEA missionary boom in developing countries, often by United States evangelical and Pentecostal Protestants, has brought Christianity into some local conflicts with majority populations that follow faiths such as Islam, Hinduism and Buddhism.So, they've noticed have they? Of course they have, they've sponsored it, went actively looking for the antagonism: teaching their converts to burn up Korean temples, break down their own Hindu vigrahas, and do similar things in Sri Lanka. Then they presented it as the poor persecuted christians, who for some inexplicable reason became unpopular and had the local mobs after them. Proving one's hatred for one's former non-christian religion is a right-of-passage to becoming a christian (or a muslim too in several cases).

QUOTEOverzealous preachers stand accused of linking humanitarian aid with baptism and insulting local faiths. Some local Christian minorities, who lived in peace before the boom, now feel a backlash as suspicion mounts against all Christians.When did local christian minorities live in peace?
Oh yeah, when they lost help from their colonising master-friends. When the christo Portuguese colonials left (end of secular enforcing arm of church in India and other Asian countries). When there was no more big brother to fight their battles for them, the christians kept a low profile until now when the missionary west has made a come back with the big bucks business of evangelisation.

QUOTERepresentatives from the main families of the world's largest faith met in Geneva last week to discuss guidelines to curb aggressive evangelists and reassure other religions that Christian activists are not simply out to steal their sheep.We don't have sheep. Only christianity has 'sheep', not the cuddly kind that goes baa either. Christianity, like islam, is aggressive by nature. During this meeting, why don't they take out the aggressive side of chrisitanity instead (not possible, unless they toss the bible - hey, there's an idea!)

QUOTE"Due to increased proselytism in some parts of the Christian family, the fibre of living together is jeopardised," said the Rev. Hans Ucko, a Swedish Lutheran in charge of inter religious dialogue at the Geneva-based World Council of Churches (WCC).All parts of the infighting christian 'family' are working on their own particular plans of mass proselytisation. The baptist and other evangelical churches are still working on the crude means that the catholic church used until 50 years ago (50s Vietnam). The catholic church, in line with its new and 'improved' image (keyword being image, in reality this church is the same as they've always been) is not going for genocide and terrorism but inculturation which is also detested and stirring up anger and friction.

QUOTEChristian leaders at the meeting, part of a three-year effort aiming to produce a code of conduct by 2009, sought a balance that would let them continue spreading their faith without discrediting it and antagonising other religions.Again, too late. Their faith was discredited by many when it was launched. And all those missions in S America, and among various small tribal communities in Asia and Africa provide further proof of the unethical nature of their religion. Inculturation additionally stresses the unoriginality and appropriating nature of christianity.
'Code of conduct' - new code for how to not get caught. More denial, whining about persecution, media lobbying and creating reverse-stories to blame the victimised religions of the crimes committed by the christos themselves. Heard it all before.

QUOTE"India and Sri Lanka are two countries that have become very sensitive to this issue," said Monsignor Felix Machado, the Vatican's representative in the discussion.Gee, I wonder why India and Sri Lanka have got sensitive over this issue? Could it be because Indians and Sri Lankans know about the christoterrorism going on in their respective countries?
Translation of Vatican's double-speak mouthed by Monsignor Felix Machado: 'We've been caught at it in India and Sri Lanka and the local populace aren't happy. Must think of new means of inducting their countries into Ze Only Tru and Holy Faith.'

Husky · (This post was last modified: 01-31-2007, 05:08 PM by Husky.)

Post 236 again:
QUOTEHindu nationalists in India have passed anti-conversion laws in some states to stop what they say are missionaries bribing poor people to get baptised. In Sri Lanka, Buddhist nationalists have campaigned - so far in vain - for similar laws.It's a fact that missionaries are bribing the poor. It's also why the poor don't stay christian for long. They're poor, not stupid.

Nevertheless, missionaries announce how these are 'mere allegations', although they know first hand it's anything but. It's all about world perception for them: use any means necessary but don't get caught. No one should know how such large numbers of conversions are accomplished. People shouldn't get a real understanding of how christianity works: it would become unpopular!
If and when they do get caught and can't deny their way out of it, it results in such meetings of all of the world's denominations where they chastise who went wrong and where (in getting caught).

QUOTEThe post-tsunami aid rush to Indonesia showed not only Christians help the poor with a possible double agenda. Radical Islamic groups also turned up in mostly Muslim Aceh province.[/b]Islamic groups are allowed to help their own without christos having to resort to accusing them of a 'possible double agenda', trying to even the gameboard. In this case it's only christianity that is behaving in its ever dubious manner.

QUOTECatholics and mainline Protestants have long accused well-financed evangelical and Pentecostal missionaries of angering majority faiths in the developing world.It was Catholics who terrorised the Buddhists of 50s Vietnam. It's mainstream Protestants that are terrorising the Buddhists and Korean religionists in Korea. It's several Protestant missionary organisations including the Mennonites who are tormenting the S American native Americans. And it's mainstream Protestants including Baptists who are raping women and kidnapping and assaulting kids in Africa and among the Akha of Thailand. (See http://freetruth.50webs.org/Overview4.htm )

QUOTEthis problem was less pressing than the tensions created by fire and brimstone sermons broadcast over satellite television, said Thomas Schirrmacher of the World Evangelical Alliance. "The main problem is the international, almost exclusively American media," he said. "They are not linked to local churches and have no idea what effect their broadcasts have.So it's okay for gawd's Pet Robertson to mouth off about shipping off the muslims as long the broadcast is confined to local US transmission? As long as Mad Pat's crazed pronouncements aren't transmitted all over the globe into Africa and Asia?

QUOTEA spokesperson for Robertson said "The 700 Club," where Robertson has made his most controversial comments about Islam, was only a small part of his satellite broadcasting and most of it was "both culturally sensitive and relevant." Yeah, Robertson's 700 club is generally soooo culturally 'sensitive and relevant'. (To the same extent that OBL's rantings against the west are full of peace and friendliness.) Gawd's Pet Robertson went to India and shot some of the usual christo footage next to turning humans into sheep for Creep:
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/7027/htoday.html
QUOTEHinduism Today, July 1995
Using TV, Christian Pat Robertson Denounces Hinduism as "Demonic"
Evangelist Opposes Freedom of Religion, Says It's Time To Convert India and Wants to Keep Hinduism Out of US
By Valli J. Rajan, Pennsylvania

It's not that unusual for Pat Robertson's daily Christian TV show, the "700 Club," to portray other religions in less than a complimentary light. Jews, Muslims and occasionally Hindus are singled out for a scathing recounting of their spiritual errors. Still, I was shocked to see Robertson on his March 23th show label Hinduism as "demonic" and advocate keeping Hindus out of America. My concerns intensified when President Clinton later implicated hateful talk in the fatal Oklahoma City bombing.
[...]
The March 23rd episode details Robertson's conversion of some Hindu people of Rajahmundry in Andhra Pradesh, India, to the Christian religion. In the course of the show, Robertson makes shameful, unChristian accusations against the Hindu faith, the world's oldest religion. When contacted, Mr. Robertson's office told us he was "unavailable for comment."

To begin, Robertson's experiences in Rajahmundry are described by a narrator. The scene is of a poverty-stricken people, bathing in the river at the head of which rests a statue of Lord Siva. Water is pouring out of Siva's head and a snake is wrapped around his head as well. Robertson and his son are found in the midst of the scene, observing and mocking the early morning prayers of Hindus. As they witness the scene, they make incorrect reference to the river as "Siva's sperm," and claim that the people "were supposed to wash away their sins in the sperm of the God."

Robertson goes on to characterize Hinduism as having evil tendencies toward random spiritual worship and polytheism. Mr. Robertson's son and fellow evangelist, Gordon, stated disparagingly, "Whenever [Hindus] feel any sort of inspiration, whether it's by a river or under a tree, on top of a hill, they figure that some God or spirit is responsible for that. And so they'll worship that tree, they'll worship that hill or they'll worship anything." What was even more regrettable was Robertson's assertion of some connection between idol worship and the poverty in India. Robertson does not deny his son's claim that "Wherever you find this type of idolatry, you'll find a grinding poverty. The land has been cursed."3 comments:
(1) Hinduism Today is confused when it refers to his comments as unchristian. They are very wrong. These comments are typically christian, have always been and always will be. This is what the christians who've studied and accepted the bible believe. Whether they will continue to articulate it in an increasingly PC world is another matter, but they will continue to believe it. The disgusting christocomments about the water and Shiva (as well as the other comments) say more about the morbid teachings of christianity and the low state of mind it induces.
(2) 'idolatry caused the poverty' - sick Pet of gawd has never studied apparently, else he must have failed his courses, else he is lying. India's present poverty is caused by christos (from Britain) stealing and draining everything from the country.
(3) How did this loser make any converts among Indians? He's as racist as one would expect from the teachings of the Southern baptist church. ( http://freetruth.50webs.org/C4b.htm#PatRobertson )

01-29-2007, 02:42 PM

More on the "abhayamudra christ" in Kerala

Indian christ worshipped in Kerala templeQUOTETHIRUVANANTHAPURAM: Dan Brown could take an idea or two from a chapel in Kerala for his next bestseller. This modern version of the Renaissance classic has Jesus Christ and his disciples eating out of plantain leaves. The thirteen men, squatting on a tile-paved floor, are definitely Indians. They could be feasting anywhere in Kerala, with two traditional lamps around.

Surprises donât end with the altar painting at the Jagat Jyoti Mandir near Kollam. Eclipsing the conventional crucifix, Christ is sculpted in a sitting posture. He meditates in Abhayamudra under the shadow of a peepul tree. After his White, Black and Hispanic avatars, the West Asian prophet is the Enlightened a la Buddha. (Though the Nepal-born Buddha himself has acquired a Mongol face amid his East Asian followers.)

The church/temple named Jagat Jyoti Mandir (House of the Light of the Universe), inaugurated by Kollam bishop Stanley Roman on Friday, is supposed to be a place of exchange for religions. âWe envisaged this chapel as a place to promote fellowship among religions. You can see every religion's motif here,â said Fr Stanley Roman, director of Quilon Social Service Society (QSS), an agency of the Quilon diocese. âThe idea is to highlight an Indian experience of Christianity. Our bishops were always in favour of the indigenisation of the Church since the days of the Second Vatican Council. There are many churches in north India, which are architecturally close to Hindu temples. But in the south, Christianity seldom deviated from the original design. I doubt if anyone has done an experiment like this,â Fr Antony added.

On Friday, the bishop celebrated the mass sitting on the floor. So did the believers in the chapel with no chairs. The liturgy was conventional, but bhajans added to the rituals. âBhajans are not really Hindu-specific. It can be applied to any religion. Parameshwara can be perceived as the Omnipotent and Vikhneshwara the Almighty in the Christian context. We just need to be open to cultures around us,â Fr Antony said.A bowl of rice and a bronze lamp can be seen beside Christ, who turns water into wine at the biblical wedding on the glass panels in the Jagat Jyoti Mandir. Tantric symbols of the Panchabhootas (the Five Elements) are depicted on coloured glasses. The structure, with a tall stone lamp in front of it, could easily be mistaken for a Hindu temple but for the cross on top of it.

âWe are planning to make this church a centre of activity. We are going to conduct a symposium on environment, attended by religious leaders, as a first step. Every religion is closely related to environment and has a different outlook on it,â Fr Antony said


Husky wroteQUOTETranslation of Vatican's double-speak mouthed by Monsignor Felix Machado: 'We've been caught at it in India and Sri Lanka and the local populace aren't happy. Must think of new means of inducting their countries into Ze Only Tru and Holy Faith.

01-29-2007, 08:45 PM

QUOTEhttp://www.christianaggression.org/item_display.php?id=1169679363&type=NEWS
GFA missionaries arrested at Ardh Kumbh
January 23, 2007
Crusadewatch.org
Allahabad: Police arrested six Gospel for Asia missionaries for tresspassing at Ardh Kumbh festival. Scores of Gospel for Asia leaders and missionaries camped at the Ardh Kumbh location to "offer the pilgrims an alternative to the traditional rituals by introducing them to Jesus".

Some piligrims got into an argument with some missionaries who were denigrating Hindu gods. Police sensed trouble and asked missionaries toÂ leave the place as it is against law to deinigrate other religions. The women's team retreated while the men's team was belligerent. Police arrested the leadersÂ and released them a day after. The missionaries claimed that they had talked about Christianity to over 200,000 pilgrims.

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