Christian Subversion And Missionary Activities - 6

[G.Subramaniam]

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Kashmir’s 'mufti azam' summons Christian priest to explain alleged conversions

Oct 28, 2011,

M Saleem Pandit,

SRINAGAR: Mufti Bashir-ud-din - J&K's official " mufti azam", or head Muslim clergyman - issued fresh summons to a leading Christian priest, CM Khanna, on Friday, asking him to appear before his court to explain his activities of reported conversions of young local boys and girls at his church in Srinagar. Khanna said the mufti was annoyed with him because he had expressed his inability to help the mufti in the admission of a boy to a Christian missionary school.

Talking to TOI, Mufti Azaam Bashir-ud-din said: "Our shariat court had summoned the Christian priest, CM Khanna, to appear personally today at 11am but he failed to appear. Now we have issued fresh summons to him for personal appearance on November 12."

A shariat court has existed in J&K since the early 1960s; Mufti Bashir-ud-din is the judge of the court and the appeal against this court lies in the civil court. Mufti Bashir said that the court was recognized by the state government because of the majority Muslim character of the state. The shariat court, however, has no enforcing agency like police to implement its judgments, he said

Mufti Bashir-ud-din said: "I have received the complaint that the said priest, CM Khanna, is involved in converting young Muslim boys and girls to Christianity. This warrants action as per Islamic law. So we summoned him to appear before the shariat court to explain his position."

The mufti claimed to possess a video cassette purportedly showing Reverend Khanna urging young Kashmiri Muslims to embrace Christianity and asking them to take a dip in a pond inside the church near the cricket stadium in Srinagar.

"I will take all necessary measures in exercise of the powers vested in me by Islamic shariat," the mufti said when asked what course he would take if the priest failed to appear in his court.

"It is a matter of grave concern that Christian missionaries active here should be running an organized and integrated campaign to convert young Kashmiri Muslims to Christianity," he said.

When contacted, CM Khanna said : "I am an officiating priest at the Srinagar church and Mufti Bashir-ud-din last fortnight asked me to help him in getting admission to some boy in a Christian school called Tyndale Biscoe school, but I told him that the school was not under my control and he had better approach the principal of the school. He was annoyed over the issue."

Khanna said that he had not received any summons and the allegations levelled against him were false and concocted. "I am at present out of state," Khanna told TOI on the phone.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india...?prtpage=1

-

[Husky]

Wow, scary.

Calling Sangh organizations to account:



1. http://vijayvaani.com/FrmPublicDisplayAr...px?id=2030

When Cults replaced Ideals - I, Radha Rajan, 01 Nov 2011



2. http://vijayvaani.com/FrmPublicDisplayAr...px?id=2031

Hindu bodies directionless and wayward - II, Radha Rajan, 02 Nov 2011



3. http://vijayvaani.com/FrmPublicDisplayAr...px?id=2032

What Hindus conceded via inter-faith - III, Radha Rajan, 03 Nov 2011

In the first article, taking the word "cults" as a reference to "personality cults" made it a bit easier to read. Hmmm, could be wrong but Subramaniam Swamy does seem to be one of those mentioned (?), while comments confirmed that the 3rd personality cult referred to is indeed Rajeev Malhotra. Not sure who/what the remaining cult is.





Important read because it covers a whole bunch of things like:



- How the VHP (and its reversion activities) in TN were scuttled by HDAS which replaced the reversions with international interfaith discussions instead (even making secret agreements with the Vatican on Hindus' behalf)



- VigilOnline site being scuttled too



- Direct quotations from Vatican pronouncements admitting how all Interfaith Dialogue is but an overture to conversion to jeebusism



- Rajiv Malhotra determined to involve himself with Harvard's Jesuit Father Francis Clooney, known as the inculturating superterrorist. More about Clooney at

http://vaticanculturation.wordpress.com/...tegorized/



Not that Malhotra wouldn't know who Clooney is.

Apparently Clooney last did his thing in Nepal and then came down to TN to continue the Pope's call to missionise Asia, where he's been hard at work inculturating on Shri Vaishnavam, and working on books declaring that the non-existent mary supposedly has something to do with Hindus' Devis. RR describes Clooney as teaching the cannibal sheep in India exactly how to inculturate and on what.



- "Swami" Agnivesh's recent attempt to gift Kashmir to Pukestan. He predictable "termed the Amarnath Yatra a fraudulent religious act."

(Note that the same "Swami" Agnivesh - who thus attempted an attack on Amarnatha and his Bhaktas - is the dear best friend of that alien pseudo-Shaiva movement "Himalayan Academy". Himalayan Academy already knew of Agnivesh's true character - but insisted on remaining his friend - just as they would know that Amarnatha is the Shiva they pretend to worship. HA's owns the "Hinduism Today" magazine - famous for peddling that anti-Hindu anti-Ramayanam cartoon made by some American.)



- And a whole lot more.

[dhu]

[quote name='Husky' date='05 November 2011 - 10:02 PM' timestamp='1320510281' post='113609']

In the first article, taking the word "cults" as a reference to "personality cults" made it a bit easier to read. Hmmm, could be wrong but Subramaniam Swamy does seem to be one of those mentioned (?), while comments confirmed that the 3rd personality cult referred to is indeed Rajeev Malhotra. Not sure who/what the remaining cult is.[/quote]



Malhotra's antics are getting very worrying with publication of his 2nd book which tries to systematize a Hindu theology in explicit contrast to the abrahamists.

As long as he limited himself to the geopolitical (and also did other great incomparable work), his bombast was excusable but now he is has gone beyond.

His approach is Amerikan Corporate with all emphasis on results, performance, and lobby.

His derision and mockery of ordinary Hindus who are not "lobbyist material" is self-defeating and small-minded.

He is free-flowing and indulgent in his criticism of others so I'm not thinking twice about writing this.

The real sentiments behind his fleeting sponsorship of Witzel, his admiring flirts with Clooney, which he says are performed for "Purva Paksha" of the Academia and the Church, are seen [url="http://incognitocomments.wordpress.com/tag/rajiv-malhotra/."]>>here<<[/url].

He has an intolerant streak well demonstrated in how he shut down indictraditions, and renamed Breaking India to, of all things, RajivMalhotraDiscussion.

I am really getting tired of these Aryanists with Anthropology minds trying to paradigm shift Dharma into pale versions of Nat Geo.

[Guest]

[quote name='Husky' date='05 November 2011 - 10:02 PM' timestamp='1320510281' post='113609']

Wow, scary.





In the first article, taking the word "cults" as a reference to "personality cults" made it a bit easier to read. Hmmm, could be wrong but Subramaniam Swamy does seem to be one of those mentioned (?), while comments confirmed that the 3rd personality cult referred to is indeed Rajeev Malhotra. Not sure who/what the remaining cult is.



[/quote]



Cult 1, I think, is S.Gurumurthy.



Radha Rajan and Malhothra are two sides of the same coin. Radha Rajan should have the courtesy to acknowledge Dr.Swamy's single handed himalayan effort in stopping the destruction of Ramasethu and going after the powers that be risking his life to get at the trillions of dollars of loot of India's wealth. Radha Rajan lost her credentials with me.

[Husky]

1. The Chindu via

bharatabharati.wordpress.com/2011/11/09/catholic-ireland-to-close-its-vatican-embassy-because-of-child-sex-abuse-issues-vaiju-naravane/

Catholic Ireland to close its Vatican embassy because of child sex abuse issues

– Vaiju Naravane



[...]



In a communique the Irish Foreign Ministry said the mission was being closed because “it yields no economic return” and that relations would be continued with an ambassador in Dublin. However, observers said the closure of the embassy at the Holy See, Iran and Timor-Leste would result in economies of a paltry €1.2 million per year.



The real reason behind the closure is Irish anger over what they see as the Vatican’s double talk over repeated and continuous sexual abuse of children by Catholic priests in Ireland. Irish Prime Minister Enda Kenny has accused Rome of stonewalling, if not obstructing, official enquiries into the abuse which went on as late as 2009. He said the Church was guilty of “dysfunction, disconnection, elitism and narcissism.”



Ireland has been one of the most faithful daughters of the Catholic Church, banning abortion even today and introducing divorce only in 1995. But the very close relationship enjoyed by the Vatican with successive Irish governments was severely damaged by a series of reports over the Church’s seemingly deliberate obliviousness to child sex abuse by Catholic priests. Indeed in Ireland, most educational institutions were at one time almost exclusively run by the Church and abuse and harsh, even inhuman, treatment of children flourished.



“The decision to close the embassy does not surprise me,” Ms Moira D., an Irish journalist based in Paris told The Hindu. “For months now, there has been seething anger towards the hypocrisy of Rome and this decision will be welcomed by the people.” Ms D said she was herself a victim of abuse at the hands of priests and nuns several decades ago and has asked for reparations. “We were placed in care after our parents left Ireland because of financial worries. My father could have gone to debtors’ prison and nobody wanted that. We were six and my brother — the only boy — became a schizophrenic and remains institutionalised today as a result of the abuse he suffered. Looking back now it seems unreal, as if it happened in a long gone barbaric era, but it was true nonetheless and it happened not that long ago,” she said.



Last July, the Vatican took the highly unusual step of recalling its ambassador to Ireland after Prime Minister Enda Kenny accused the Holy See of obstructing investigations into sexual abuse by priests. The Irish parliament passed a motion deploring the Vatican’s role in “undermining child protection frameworks” following the publication of a damning report on the diocese of Cloyne. The Cloyne report said Irish clerics concealed from the authorities the sexual abuse of children by priests as recently as 2009, after the Vatican disparaged Irish child protection guidelines in a letter to Irish bishops.



[...]

a] It's another reason why catholicism wants to set up shop in Asia.

b] While even Irish catholics have kicked the Vatican out for its inaction regarding Vatican's inherent paedophilia, compare this to the Indian situation where the christomedia is trying to peddle the religion.

And all those "Hindus" interfaithing - not to mention signing secret deals with the Vatican (catholicism)/christianism - they must surely approve of christianism's unending paedophilia and genocide, else why associate with it? They can represent no one but themselves.





2. On the comments at

http://vijayvaani.com/FrmPublicDisplayAr...px?id=2022

Towards Tamil Eelam: Via Wall Street (Catholic church)



This is disturbing about Rajapakse's government in SL:

Every Tamil appointment of the Government has been Christian. The Tamil Ambassador in Geneva is Tamara Kunanayakam, formerly of the International Christian Student Fellowship. The Tamil Ambassador in South Africa is a Ratnavale and a card carrying Christian. The Tamil Government Agents in Jaffna, Kilinochchi, Vavuniya and Mullaitivu are all Christians. The University Vice Chancellor in Jaffna, a woman, is also Christian. These are all appointments in the last one year. And yet, Christians are only 11% of the Tamil population.

Seems very christian behaviour on the part of Mahinda Rajapakse, whose wife is IIRC the christian who "converted" to Buddhism for show, but who is said to still be unnaturally (and visibly) close to the church. (Also IIRC, elsewhere, some SL Buddhists averred that Rajapakse's kids were christians. Is this true?)



(Am leaving out the "Rajapakse funded LTTE in his own right" type comments and claims that he is friends with LTTE/church funder Rajarantam, which are statements I wouldn't know how to verify.)





3.

Radha Rajan and Malhothra are two sides of the same coin.

No, not at all. <- Clearly, no rationalisation need be given for the response as none was given for the initiating statement.

Cult 1, I think, is S.Gurumurthy.

So if the personality cult in question is not Swamy but Gurumurthy instead, don't see the need for getting upset at RR over this matter.

Personally I think all this lack of clarity on who is meant with the various cults is due to RR not being straightforward about identifying them.

[dhu]

[url="http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-15803118"]Pope urges Africans to reject voodoo on trip to Benin[/url]

[Husky]

[quote name='dhu' date='20 November 2011 - 02:44 AM' timestamp='1321736792' post='113799']

[url="http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-15803118"]Pope urges Africans to reject voodoo on trip to Benin[/url]

[/quote]

Very very scary. Because:



1. Note the pope has referred to it as witchcraft! From Dhu's link above -

Pope Benedict is on a visit to Benin where he will urge African Christians to reject what he calls magic and witchcraft.

But the pontiff faces something of a challenge if he wishes to persuade believers to turn away from their traditional spiritual religions, as David Willey explains.

(Even BBC can add 2 and 2 together)



2. The pope's announcement is shorthand almost code* for telling christians in Africa to proscribe the native African traditions: not just among the christians themselves** - of course (since the heading is "the Pope urges Africans" to do thus and so - but the papal command is also for christians to suppress it among all Africans. Christian suppression is always ruthless.

How will they do it? Well, the way they always destroyed "witchcraft". ** And hence the way the African churches - in Africa and the UK - have been doing it for some time. E.g. see an earlier post in the christianism thread on how the christianised adult zombies among Africans are murdering their own children/grandchildren/nieces/nephews etc on suspicion of being "witches" (probably the real 'crime' was that the child didn't pay attention when praising the non-existent jeebus). Takes place even in African churches in the UK. But that's what happens to a population once they've been christianised=zombified: the adults will kill their own children at random.



* Remember how the Pope declared "the conversion of Asia in the 3rd millennium" and this directly translated into the masses of sleeper, crypto and overt christians going into overdrive to destroy heathenism in Bharatam (from breaking the Ramarsethu under a "secular" excuse, to framing the Kanchi Acharya so his influence can be neutralised, to massacring Hindu swamis like Swami Lakshmanananda from behind a see-through "maoist" cover, to the christomedia and christogovt inventing "Hindu terror" fictions in order to proscribe Hindus and to disband Hindus like Swami Aseemananda of the Vanavasi Kalyana Ashramam from reconverting the zombified back to their Hindoo religion.)







Anyway, what I came for:

bharatabharati.wordpress.com/2011/11/30/yoga-and-harry-potter-are-evil-says-vaticans-chief-exorcist-ani/

[color="#0000FF"]“Yoga and Harry Potter are evil,” says Vatican’s chief exorcist – ANI[/color]

Posted on November 30, 2011 by IS



Actually, Herr Overlord Inquisitor who's the current Pope Ratzinger - and indeed the entire Inquisition (The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith) - had already booed at Yoga a few years back and told his christos (at least those in Europe) to Keep Away:



http://freetruth.50webs.org/D4f.htm

Though it uses inculturation in the east, the Catholic Church has warned its flock in the west against eastern practises:

Last December the Vatican's Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith [formerly known as the Holy Inquisition] warned about the dangers of blending Christian prayer and Eastern methods of meditation (e.g., Zen, Transcendental Meditation and yoga).

...

Early in the document the author, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, describes how the church Fathers combated early "errors" that affected the way Christians thought about prayer. He says, "Such erroneous forms, having reappeared in history from time to time on the fingers of the church's prayer, seem once more [today] to impress many Christians, appealing to them as a kind of remedy, be it psychological or spiritual, or as a quick way of finding God."

It is indeed well-known how the 'church Fathers combated early "errors"'. The Roman Church and Cardinal-turned-Pope Ratzinger have herewith hinted at a warning. Once Asian countries are made nominally Christian, re-enter the great purge: the Inquisition. Then there'll be no more talk of inculturation and such nonsense, which at the present is only being tolerated as a means to achieve the conversion of Asia and Africa.

It must be clear - even for those who insist on keeping their eyes tightly shut - that the christian inculturation on heathenism in heathen climes will one day be purged.

But purge, purge, purge away: these things were never christian. A sheepified India is not meant to have Yoga, BharataNatyam etc.

However, in the meantime (while christoism is not yet the religion of the masses), christo sheep are allowed to "inculturate". It is but a means to an end. The church considers this a highly undesirable - but somewhat necessary - means. But then comes the purging. The way the christo church took over all the schools of the Roman empire and pretended to "educate" the GrecoRomans (by deliberately mangling Hellenismos). And then, when the Roman empire was sufficiently christianised - it destroyed all the schools in the empire. No more learning! Learning was literally declared "pagan"="witchcraft".

It's what christianism does. Don't need a crystal ball to know the pattern of action of christianism.





The comments by Ishwar Sharan (IS) at the above link are sensible. Though he happens to have erred about one thing, the most fortunate thing: the Hindus never gave the west Yoga nor inducted them into anything Hindu. Aliens don't *have* any of it.

[Husky]

Double post.

[Husky]

IMO, these next 2 are Must Read articles:

1. http://vijayvaani.com/FrmPublicDisplayAr...px?id=2086
   
   [size="5"]Interfaith dialogues and Inculturation: The Pune Dialogue - by Thamizhchelvan 09 Dec 2011[/size]
   
   
   
   
2. http://vijayvaani.com/FrmPublicDisplayAr...px?id=2087
   
   [size="5"]Interfaith dialogues and Inculturation: The real face of the Church - by Thamizhchelvan 10 Dec 2011[/size]
   
   

Among the many "shockers" (Not) in the first link:

The “International Sanatana Dharma Society” run by one Frank Morales masquerading as “Sri Dharma Pravartaka Acharya” targets US-born and bred Hindu youths who are distanced from their native culture by two to three generations. His seeks to establish Jesus as “Dharma Master” through the Hindu scriptures, like the local fraudsters like Sadhu Chellappa and Vedanayagam Sastri. (14)



[...]



14. www.dharmacentral.com/index.php [color="#800080"]<-- links to Morales And Gang's video on "jeebus the dharma mastah"[/color]

and www.youtube.com/user/DharmaNation?feature=mhum#p/c/0/3NYMBb65wVY

and www.agniministries.org/Default.aspx

And as I recall, at some other point in time - to predictable Indian applause - this alien "convert" Frank Morales also typically handed a "brahmana certificate" to another alien and I think even "initiated" it into conducting homams or some such Vedic rites. (BTW, the alien inducted was moreover of the female persuasion.) Oh What A Shock. How Will I Ever Recover From The Surprise :drama:





But the above quoteblock is just one of a great many varied issues covered at the VV links, many of which are equal if not greater horrors.



And apparently there's been more "interfaith dialogue" involving "Swamis" - or some such. I wonder how many of the "interfaithing swamis" are just infiltrators working for christianism? I mean, cryptochristianism has already infiltrated absolutely *every* other field, so how unlikely can it be that christinism would have "Swamis" installed into key positions? "Swami Uglyface" Agnivesh can hardly be the only one, though I think he even stopped pretending to be a Hindu in anything but outward gear.

The lay Hindu populace - that's practically everyone - should ostracise absolutely every entity that does "interfaith dialogues" with christoislamism. Christianism is a religion that has committed repeated genocide. If anyone chooses to have an "amicable/peaceable" discussion/dialogue with it, it means they *approve* of genocide, which means they are ultimately equally guilty.

[Husky]

This post is not for young people. It contains some things that may well be found to be distressing, but it needs to be said.



Benedict XVI on child abuse: It’s normal for men and children!

Said Pope Ratzinger. Article at link.





The comment to the above by Ishwar Sharan says somethings people should remember, not just the bits made bold:

IS, on December 13, 2011 at 8:36 pm said:



The problem of sexual misconduct among bishops and priests was there in the Church right at the beginning.



In the 1st-2nd century there was a group called the Carpocratians who believed that Jesus and Lazarus were lovers. They had an “acts” or “gospel” which described the raising of Lazarus from the dead by Jesus as a sexual encounter between the two. The Early Church Father Clement of Alexandria had all their “gospels” collected and destroyed. So we only know about them from his negative references.



The First Council of Nicaea in 325 AD is described by early accounts as an orgy of sex and violence. The 318 bishops who attended quarrelled over doctrine in the daytime and boys at night. This is the important council where Jesus, up to this point considered to be a human prophet in line of the earlier Hebrew prophets, was raised to the status of a deity by a vote of the bishops. The two bishops from Libya who dissented were soon murdered in their beds.



Clerical licentiousness got so bad by the 12th century that in 1123 that it was decided at the First Lateran Council in Rome that priests must be unmarried and celibate. They were also not allowed to live with their mothers or sisters as they could not be trusted not to rape them.



This 12th century rule is a clerical rule and not a doctrinal injunction, therefore priests have always flouted it with impunity.



Celibacy, by the way, simply means unmarried in Catholic terminology. It does not mean the priest must maintain sexual countenance.



There are hundreds of married priests and an equal number of active gay priests. It is a different matter that the Vatican does not recognise them or discipline them. At one time Catholic priests in the US had the highest number of HIV-infected members, more than any other group straight or gay.



As for child abuse, more heterosexual and married men are abusers than are gay men. Therefore the contention that priests must be allowed to marry to stop the abuse is just not true.

[color="#800080"](I have to make a very distasteful note.

Many of the abusive christoislamic priests are full-time paedophiles.

Normal people have (obviously exclusively) adult lovers.

But paedophiles can not be merely classed as straight or gay. To do so is as irrelevant to the point as describing persons who commit bestiality as being 'straight' or 'gay'.)[/color]



Orthodox Churches allow priests to marry. Child abuse is there too, as in the Latin Church. Some years ago the Greek monks of a famous Mt. Athos monastery went on strike when they were told they could no longer have boy friends.



The most famous of recent child abusers was Fr. Marcial Maciel who founded the Legion of Christ. He had two of wives / mistresses and was a close confident of Pope John-Paul II. He started his career of sexual abuse on his two sons who have publicly accused and denounced him.



The irony in all this history of Christian scandal is that sex is a sin in Christian theology and the act itself is to be condemned. Women are to blame of course, as it was Eve who gave Adam the apple that opened his eyes to her beauty and attractiveness in the biblical fairy tale.

Hindus don't seem to understand who they are entrusting their children to and what that means for the future of the nation's entire collective and for the country's heathenism.

Christianism and its long shadow will wipe away any vestige of heathenism and any possibility for it to return even in far future generations.



With its weapon of sexual abuse especially paedophilia - and it IS a weapon that christianism uses and it is moreover *institutional* to christianism - christianism will create a chain, a cycle of abuse. They have done it everywhere. I have not seen/heard of any nation break that cycle.*

In every society that has become host to the christoislamic sexual parasite,

1. Some of the victims will never become predators themselves - remaining traumatised victims throughout.

2. But a certain percentage *always* become carriers. Even if this is a minority, its very real possibility cannot be overlooked.

This is a very dreary and troubling topic, I don't wish to continue distressing on these lines any further than what I've briefly indicated. Even so I've kept it light: the repercussions I fear to be more disturbing. People MUST do something. This concerns the future of your children and your children's children.



* But with lack of a cure, prevention is Hindus only answer. For that people must prevent *christianism*. Which inevitably means it must - definitely - be removed from the nation. Even so, what to do with the generations of Indian christians sexually abused by christianism (i.e. inducted into the sexual abuse cycle of christianism's paedophilia already), many of whom are already preying on next generations in their turn?

And far worse still, christianism has already sunk its gory claws into Hindu children. This could have been prevented long ago had our ancestors had the brains - coupled with favourable circumstances - to oust christoislamism from our shores. But perhaps that would only have delayed a repeat invasion: an infestation of christianism/islamism would have returned, since neither can countenance a heathen nation existing at peace somewhere.

Christoislamism must be destroyed for good - and ALL its satellite diseases.

Else it will destroy all of humanity. (And all of heathenism certainly.)





[color="#0000FF"]ADDED:[/color]

For examples on why it's a Cycle created (intentionally) by christianism, see posts 497 and 499 of Christianism - Thread 5.

[Meluhhan]

Bhagavad Gita faces "extremist" branding and [url="http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2011-12-17/europe/30528159_1_religious-freedom-religious-rights-bhagavad-gita"]ban in Russia[/url]. All thanks to the Orthodox Church.

[Husky]

Wish all Hindu religious literature - starting with the Vedam - would be banned among all aliens (but not banned to Hindus living in foreign climes obviously). And ensure the ban gets implemented. No more Dabbling Terror. Now that would be a great victory.







1/4

Anyway, this next IMO is an important news piece. Together with the comments, it is certainly entertaining.

It's on the matter of Sheep Stealing! By the catholic church. Using inculturation (of course) and internal double-handedness even.

Already knew the catholic church was working (even back in Old England) on wooing the stray Anglican sheep back into the even more desperate/depraved catholic flock (on the occasion of the exposed vulnerability of internal dissent within the Anglican church), similar to what the catholic church has been doing with the protestants in Germany. But it seems catholic inculturation within christianism is not restricted to the Orthodox churches: it is not just married eastern orthodox priests (or even Lutherans etc) who were allowed to remain married - temporarily - upon conversion to catholicism, but now episcopalian priests are allowed to do the same if they convert to catholicism. Plus there's even inculturation on anglican liturgy and hymns.

Typical catholic church. Stealy stealy. Even from the already-destitute disease that is christianism.

It's not like the other cannibal sheep haven't noticed the inculturation and sheep stealing - they even call it poaching! Most appropriate.





Some good comments to the following. Plus any unsaved Indian not familiar with some details of some of the many various christianisms, may learn a thing or two from the comments.

Like I learnt one particular detail on Henry VIII (died a catholic in his own eye apparently). I knew he never got divorced: all his unsuccessful marriages were annulled (i.e. his church saw fit to not recognise he was ever technically married before ... Jane Seymour or whoever was his last wife. Who can keep track.)



www.nytimes.com/2012/01/02/us/catholic-church-unveils-order-for-ex-episcopalians.html?pagewanted=all

Catholic Church Unveils New Home for Ex-Episcopalians

By ERIK ECKHOLM

Published: January 1, 2012



comments (172)





[image caption] Charles Hough III, second from left, leading a prayer in his makeshift church in Cleburne, Texas. Rex C. Curry for The New York Times





Opening its doors more widely to disaffected Episcopalians, the Roman Catholic Church has established the equivalent of a nationwide diocese in the United States that former Episcopal priests and congregations can enter together as intact groups, the Vatican announced Sunday.



Converts who join the new entity will be full-fledged Catholics, expected to show allegiance to the pope and oppose contraception and abortion. But they will be allowed to preserve revered verses from the Book of Common Prayer. And, in what one Catholic leader called “an act of generosity,” priests who are married will be exempted from the Catholic requirement of celibacy, though they may not become bishops.



The new grouping, called the Personal Ordinariate of the Chair of St. Peter, will have its headquarters in Houston and be led by Jeffrey N. Steenson, a former Episcopal bishop and father of three who left the church in 2007 and became a Catholic priest in 2009, under an existing exemption for converting Anglicans.





[Image caption:] Mr. Hough, a married priest who left the Anglican Church along with 30 congregants, plans to join the new Catholic ordinariate. Rex C. Curry for The New York Times



With the title of ordinary, Father Steenson will be a member of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops and will report directly to the Vatican, church officials said.



Catholic leaders and some former Episcopalians are celebrating the announcement as a small but notable event in an often tortuous history of relations between the Vatican and the Anglican Church, which includes the Episcopalians, after their break in the 16th century.



The Episcopal Church is the main American branch of the Anglican Communion, a loose global body whose symbolic head is the archbishop of Canterbury, head of the Church of England. It has been shaken by discord from conservatives who object to the ordination of female priests, the acceptance of bishops with homosexual partners and changes in the liturgy.



While it involved only a small fraction of the Episcopal Church in the United States, which has more than 7,000 priests and two million members, dozens of entire parishes have broken away to join alternative Anglican branches. Many do not want to become Catholics but a share of disaffected Episcopalians are seeking to convert, something they say they have long dreamed about.



“I’m excited about the opportunity for those who, for the most part, are already with the Catholic Church in their hearts,” Cardinal Donald Wuerl, archbishop of Washington, said in an interview. The cardinal supervised planning of the ordinariate.



Since the Vatican’s grant of an exemption from celibacy in 1980, scores of Episcopal priests have joined the Catholic priesthood, remaining married. The new ordinariate will allow priests and their existing congregations to switch en masse, establishing new parishes with an Anglican flavor. Unmarried Anglican priests who join the ordinariate will not be allowed to marry later on.



So far, more than 100 priests and groups of members totaling more than 1,320, including six congregations of 70 or more, have asked to join the ordinariate, said Father Scott Hurd, a Catholic priest in Washington, D.C., and a former Episcopalian who helped design the new system.



Father Steenson said he expected more former Episcopalians to join after they saw how the new group operated. He said that he personally had always longed for closer ties with the Catholics, a feeling that only intensified as the Episcopal Church broke with tradition on female priests and acceptance of homosexuality, dividing the churches further. But he is also overjoyed to preserve elements of the Anglican liturgy, he said. The expectation is that this parallel structure will continue indefinitely.



When the Vatican authorized creation of these entities in 2009, some Anglican leaders, especially in England, expressed concern that it was trying to take advantage of their turmoil. In England, where a similar grouping was formed last year, about 60 priests and more than 1,000 members have joined so far.



But Cardinal Wuerl and Father Hurd said that the system was developed in response to a growing demand.



“There have been Anglican groups requesting this for 30 years,” Father Hurd said. “This is not an effort at poaching or sheep-stealing.”

<img src='http://www.india-forum.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' />



Charles K. Robertson, canon to the presiding bishop of the Episcopal Church, in New York, said that the reports of departures from the church were often exaggerated. He noted that the numbers expected to join the Catholics were small and that in recent decades a steady stream of Catholics, frustrated by restrictions on women and marriage, had joined the Episcopal Church.



Catholic leaders said they did not believe that the presence of married priests, most of whom will work in the parallel system of the ordinariate, would sow discord within the church.



“It’s been very clear to everyone that these married priests will be an exception, that celibacy remains the norm,” said Father Hurd. “It’s an act of generosity to these communities so they can come in with their pastors, and maintain the bond that has developed between them.”



Cardinal Wuerl said, “The commitment to celibate clergy in the Latin church is a very deeply rooted, long-lived tradition.” Future seminary applicants who want to enter the ordinariate must commit to celibacy, so married priests will disappear over time, he said.



Charles Hough III, 57, of Fort Worth, an Episcopal priest of 31 years, has been unhappy with liberal trends and warring factions in the Episcopal Church. In 2008, he joined a rival Anglican domination, but he has dreamed for years of leading his congregation into the Roman Catholic Church, he said in an interview.



“This is something we have been praying for,” he said of the ordinariate.



He resigned his Anglican post in March and became a Catholic, along with 30 followers. Like dozens of other former Episcopal priests who have already applied, he will start an online class in Roman Catholic theology and procedures in late January, and hopes to be ordained in June.



In the meantime, Mr. Hough leads prayer services for his small congregation at a makeshift church in Cleburne, Tex., just south of Fort Worth. In conservative Forth Worth, where almost the entire diocese left the mainstream Episcopal Church a few years ago, at least four different congregations, including Mr. Hough’s, are now seeking to join the ordinariate and become new Catholic parishes.



Many of these were already, like Mr. Hough, steeped in [color="#0000FF"]the “Anglo-Catholic” wing of Anglicans, which has long hoped for reunification with Rome.[/color]

[color="#800080"](Trojan horse. Cryptocatholics. But catholics are the most adept cryptos.)[/color]



“It’s a joy to be able to embrace the fullness of the church,” Mr. Hough said. “God is repairing his church.”



Mr. Hough, who has been married for 38 years, has a son, Charles Hough IV, who is also a former Episcopal priest now seeking ordination as a Catholic. The son, who is 30, married and has two small children, previously led an Episcopal church of 70 but is now teaching catechism, as a layman, in a Catholic church of 10,000 in Forth Worth. He expects that he will keep working at that church after he is ordained.



Working alongside celibate priests, the son said, he had detected no resentment. “Both of us see the sacrifices and the graces of each side,” he said. A celibate priest has more time for religious duties and devotion, he said, while a married man faces “a balancing act with the family.”



“There will be a time-management factor,” he said.





A version of this article appeared in print on January 2, 2012, on page A10 of the New York edition with the headline: Catholic Church Unveils a New Home for Former Episcopalians in U.S...

Will put up the initial comments.

[Husky]

2/4



The comments at the link:

John L. KaterWalnut Creek, CA



..There is a small error in the article. It describes the Episcopal Church as the main American church in the Anglican Communion. In fact, it is the ONLY American church in the Anglican Communion. A number of schismatic bodies claim Anglican identity but none has been recognised by the Anglican Communion and they remain unconnected to most of the Anglican churches around the world which do in fact comprise the Communion.

Jan. 4, 2012 at 1:36 a.m.



..ValeriePutnam County, NY



..Handfuls of Episcopalians are heading for Catholic churches. It is a trickle compared to a torrent that has come the other way over the years. But if you walked into the average Episcopal church and asked for a show of hands on how many people there are ex-Catholics, you'd see anywhere from 25% to 75% who are raising a hand. I am senior warden of a small Episcopal church and off the top of my head I can only think of four or five members who were born Episcopalian.



Many of these current Episcopalians/ex-Catholics came over because they disliked being cafeteria Catholics. The people who are headed over to Catholicism may love it, but may also decide they don't like having to be silent about policies they disagree with.



And don't forget another group, the large number of women who left the Catholic Church because they felt a calling to the priesthood. Some of the best Episcopal priests I know are ex-Catholics.

Jan. 3, 2012 at 10:10 a.m.

..Patrick DonovanKea'au, HI



..I'm all for married priests, but once again, by allowing some to be married and not others, the church has put itself in the forefront of the double-standard brigade. What is it that "catholic" means, again?

Jan. 3, 2012 at 10:10 a.m.

..Brian A McB Boston MA



..Rather than compromise on flagrant gender bigotry, my former church relaxes rules on celibacy. A shame.

Jan. 3, 2012 at 10:10 a.m.

..pianopal St. Louis, MO



..So how long can the Roman Catholic church maintain the inconsistency of allowing married Anglican converts but requiring celibacy of cradle Catholic men entering the priesthood? What to do when there are too few male priests for too many parishes and lots of dedicated, intelligent, theologically hip, nurturing, non-abusing nuns waiting in the wings for leadership roles? Why the current ad campaign to come back to the church? Isn't Catholicism bleeding members almost as much as the Anglicans? Finally, why would you leave a church with a New Testament, Christ-centered approach for a corrupt Old Testament-focused medieval hierarchy that thinks changing "one in being" to "consubstantial" will fill up the pews?

Jan. 3, 2012 at 10:10 a.m.

..MalcolmNYC



..Personally, I prefer not to apply for membership in organizations with a shameful record of harboring and protecting pedophiles.

Jan. 3, 2012 at 9:59 a.m.

..moweiss New Rochelle, NY



..A beautiful lesson that a 500-year-old religious schism can be healed if both sides realize that they really really really really really hate gay people.

Jan. 3, 2012 at 9:59 a.m.

..regSt. Louis



..And in any case, in the secular world, that is their choice as long as it breaks no secular law.



I am not called upon to love the sin however, and it is TEC's decision to bless same-sex unions and consecrate those who make the choice to live in homosexual relationships that is the stumbling point for me. While I care about the person, I cannot ignore the belief that what they are doing is wrong, against a clear reading of scripture, against all traditions of the church and society, and not even supported by any reasonable biological imperative.



I suspect that my position will be attacked as hypocritical, or judgmental, or some such label that is used to easily dismiss points of view that one doesn't agree with. I hesitated to even make the comment. But the discussion seemed to me to lack so much in terms of nuance, and to misrepresent what I have found to be the position of many who disagree with TEC on this issue, that I am taking a chance on voicing my convictions.

Jan. 3, 2012 at 9:59 a.m.

..regSt. Louis



..I have to say that many of the comments to this story make me very sad. I am an Episcopalian--have been for almost 30 years--but I am not a very happy one at the moment. I do not agree with the TEC movement for inclusion at any cost, including the explaining away of any scripture that seems to disagree (or condemn) current cultural trends. The meanness with which Christians and non-believers (who I will assume still adhere to some humanist belief in the value of civility) argue the point is what I find regrettable.



The fact that I do not agree with TEC does not mean, as those who polarize the issue in order to paint the opposition in as negative a light as possible might contend, that I am a misogynist, a homophobe, or even a political conservative. It is quite possible to believe that God loves and cares for those who, for instance, find that they are attracted to someone of the same gender without believing that such attraction is God's will. It have not had any problems caring about and admiring in many ways persons who have chosen a gay lifestyle, while still not approving of that choice. It is not in that case my business anyway. (As if they needed my approval.) It is no different, to my mind, than my response to someone who cheats on a spouse, or is addicted to pornography. I profoundly disagree with that choice--which I would call a sin--but believe that as a sinner I am called upon to love the sinner. (to be cont.)

Jan. 3, 2012 at 9:59 a.m.

..Isaiah Dallas Texas



..Because of the boorish atheist remarks I add the following

Stalin once crudely remarked to Truman "how many divisions does the pope have"

One Polish priest with out a tank nor a gun made atheists armed with nuclear missiles quake in their pants. The precious atheist empire dissolved like a morning fog before a brilliant sun.

There are only two officially atheists states left China and North Korea. And China is being evangelized, how long before the atheists systems there are rejected?

Like Poland and Russia not a single atheist will be killed.

Jan. 3, 2012 at 9:59 a.m.

..Jozefa SzczepanskaBrookfield, CT



..Our Catholic Church already has enough bigots among its membership - we do NOT need any more anti-gay or anti-women members coming in from other churches!

Jan. 3, 2012 at 9:59 a.m.

..BQ Philadelphia, P



..I think you have a basic fact WRONG..."The Episcopal Church is the main American branch of the Anglican Communion, a loose global body whose symbolic head is the archbishop of Canterbury, head of the Church of England."



The "Head of the Church of England" is, since Elizabeth I (the argument for her is Henry VIII still considered himself Catholic at his death) the ENGLISH MONARCH, not the Archbishop of Canterbury (and formerly Catholic Primate of England). The title of Head of the Church is taken by the Monarch within the coronation process and oaths - one reason why up till now (after Henry VIII) the Monarch could not divorce, marry a divorcee, or a Catholic). Now, as to Charles and the Church of England and the later formed Anglican Communion...does God really care about all of this? She seems to have been awfully quiet on the entire subject!

Jan. 3, 2012 at 9:59 a.m.

..The Rev. Patricia TempletonAtlanta, GA



..For Catholics who are divorced (except Newt Gingrich) or who are tired of discrimination against women, gays, and married men, my church has a motto that says it all: "The Episcopal Church Welcomes You." And you will find many former Catholics already waiting for you when you arrive. Come join us.

Jan. 3, 2012 at 9:59 a.m.

..Jakob Oxford



.."...the Anglican Communion, a loose global body whose symbolic head is the archbishop of Canterbury, head of the Church of England."



The Queen is the head of the Church of England.

Jan. 3, 2012 at 9:59 a.m.

..the mind is its own place Nantes, France



..I left the Anglican church and joined the Catholic church for practical, geographic reasons , and it was easy to do so because the decades of ecumenical efforts on both sides have produced in a very similar liturgy, and really minimal differences in faith (OK, there's the Marial veneration, but that is something each person can weigh for themselves). The central Christian message is very much alive in both churches, the Catholic church is simply more conservative in moral matters (but far less strident and judgemental than many of the other Protestant denominations). I think what many Protestants don't realize is that the Catholic church of today is very different from the one they originally split away from int he 16th century, and even Luther would probably still be Catholic if the Church of his time were like the one of today.

Jan. 3, 2012 at 9:59 a.m.

..Jim Gainesville, Florida



..Politics and Spirituality. To me they are at odds with one another. The Catholic Church vs the Episcopal Church, conservative religious views vs liberal religious views, taking exclusive sides, bitter denunciations, - it's all too much like the politics of government that feed the front pages. My childhood belief bubble that the word *Church* is closely connected to *spirituality* has been dissolving since early adulthood and it looks like it is about to go bust.

Jan. 3, 2012 at 8:51 a.m.

..mountaineerCharleston, WV



..The commenters reflect the essence of Protestantism since Protestantism began: We're not Catholic and so there. If that's what motivates you, go for it. We Catholics love the Church and our faith. The Protestant pursuit of relativism is never (ever) going to change that. That's why the Catholic Church is growing.

Jan. 3, 2012 at 8:51 a.m.4

..BJTRichmond, Va



..Act of generosity? I think not - act of desperation, more like. The Catholic Church (and I'm Catholic) will do anything to avoid confronting the sexual and financial hang-ups that continue to forbid married priests (with the exception of "disaffected" Episcopalians) and the ordination of women. The aforementioned hang-ups are why there is such emphasis on rigid control of the sexuality of women - and men, but mostly of women. The church is run by aged, self-indulgent and entitled white men who have no responsibility whatsoever for rearing children (obviously, based on the rampant sexual abuse of them) and who will never bear a child. The celibacy of priests, a later development in the history of the church, was to avoid having to support wives and children or to avoid paying spousal support - simple as that. Greed and perversion has become out of control at the upper levels of the hierarchy, I hate to say - although many of us slog on, following our own consciences and hoping to change things from within.

Jan. 3, 2012 at 8:51 a.m.19

..RNNYC



..I believe all of this is nonsense, but we are now to believe that those new converts now believe in Transubstantiation where before they did not. Based on what?

Jan. 3, 2012 at 8:51 a.m.7

(My question exactly!)



..RNNYC



..The Greek Orthodox and Russian Orthodox Churches allow for married priests at the parish level and celibate priests at higher levels. This was obviously a political compromise rather than any theoological position.



While they are at it, maybe a nice gesture would be to grant Henry VIII an annulment! (Good one.)



Keep me posted on whether there are any changes to the number of Angels dancing on the head of a pin!

(Oh I forgot about that! Very true. Funny dude/tte.)

Jan. 3, 2012 at 8:51 a.m.8

..KatChicago, IL



..I belong to the Untiy Christian Church, which believes that we are all beings imbued with Dvine essence. We are spiritual beings having a human experience. The Oneness Christ experienced with God is available to each and every one of us. Every honest attempt to commune with the Divine is honored, regardless of the faith tradition. It is laughable that so many people with such strong faith in God cannot see that others' faith is as strong even though the faith tradition is different. And cannot see that their reaching for the Divine is marred by their oh-so-human prejudices. (If I didn't laugh I would cry.)

Jan. 3, 2012 at 8:51 a.m.3

..nana2roaw albany, ny



..Exceptions to Church rules on birth control can't be made for poor Africans with AIDS but rules on celibacy can be bypassed for anti-feminist, anti-gay Episcopal priests. Well done.

Jan. 3, 2012 at 8:51 a.m.21



..TomUpstate Upstate New York



..Before declaring that the Episcopal Church USA is losing members (homophobic and gynophobic members) to the Catholics, remember how many members of the Episcopal Church USA are themselves ex-Roman Catholics. This large population, including me, are drawn to Episcopalianism as much by the inclusivity of the church as by its rich traditions of liturgy and music. (The "Hymnal 1982" is a model of sensitive musical tradition combined unobtrusively with non-gender-specific language.) Episcopalians not only actually sing in Church--really good hymns, too, by composers like Vaughan-Williams and Willan--but they sing in parts!



So there is something downright funny about allowing ex-Episcopalians to retain some of the language of the Book of Common Prayer--and their hymns--as they migrate to Roman Catholicism with its stolid congregations of non-singers (even of Christmas carols!), following the service out of monthly news-print "missalettes."



And there is something genuinely bizarre in choosing as a homophobe to seek "sanctuary" in the Catholic church, where predatory homosexual pedophiles have a remarkably long tradition of joining the clergy and then victimizing their "flocks."



I think the Episcopal Church should invite Roman Catholics worried about predatory clergy to "migrate" to the Episcopal Church--and allow them to retain their pedestrian "preaching," polyester vestments, and their semi-"pop" and semi-"folk" "hymns," along with their refusal to sing them. Any takers?

Jan. 3, 2012 at 8:51 a.m.8

..WilliamMadison, WI



..Of course we Episcopalians grow when former Roman Catholics come home to us, in the Spirit. But it suits you to present only conservative anti-christian forces as growing within God's church. Rome remains as a small remnant of the Roman empire that demands fealty to them before fealty to the Gospel is allowed. Those of us who try to follow Giovanni Francesco di Bernardone or Angelo Giuseppe Roncalli or even Joseph Louis Bernardin (much less any woman) are not welcome in the Rome of Benedict XVI.

Jan. 3, 2012 at 8:51 a.m.9

..Iandayville CT



..out of the frying pan and into an even bigger frying pan............

Jan. 3, 2012 at 8:51 a.m.5

..Belleweather Tallahassee, FL



..As a recovering Catholic, it's interesting to stand outside the fray and watch people make up and dissolve and alter rules that have nothing to do with God and everything to do with how comfortable they are and how much power man-made institutions can gain or retain.

Jan. 3, 2012 at 8:51 a.m.13

..StevenDallas, Texas



..The Roman Catholic Church wants to force other people's children (teenagers)

to have unwanted babies.



The Roman Catholic Church discriminates, big time, against women.



The Roman Catholic Church sees worldwide overpopulation as a non issue.

(In 1950 the Philippeans had a population of 20 million. In 2011 it was 92

million with most living in miserable, abject poverty.)



If you are interested in seeing what a loving, thriving, intellectually demanding

Episcopal Church looks like, check out the Episcopal Church of the Messiah,

Santa Ana, California, website.

Jan. 3, 2012 at 8:51 a.m.6

..cboynyc



..I guess it's not that much of a stretch. It was David Mamet, I think, who defined an Episcopalian as a Catholic with a Volvo.

Jan. 3, 2012 at 8:51 a.m.4

..ploatmanMechanicville NY



..Let's see-I am Catholic and married, so I cannot become a priest. But wait a minute- I think I will "convert " to Episcopalianism [just long enough to become a married priest], and then I'll "reconvert" back to being a Catholic. VOILA, I will then be able to become a Catholic priest! I never wanted to be a bishop, anyway, so I don't mind the limitation on being excluded from aspiring to the higher hierarchy. Gotta go-I'm looking for some needles to stand on.

Jan. 3, 2012 at 8:51 a.m.2

<img src='http://www.india-forum.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' />



..On WisconsinRacine County, WI



..My 83-year-old father married a Catholic woman, and together, they raised 7 Catholic children to adulthood. My dad, who himself was raised a Methodist, has been attending Catholic mass with my mom for the last decade. Recently, he told the parish priest that he wanted to convert to Roman Catholicism. The priest said no, because my dad wasn't baptized as a Catholic. My father would have to be baptized and attend several month of catechism classes before he could convert.



Apparently, there is no room in the Catholic church for "acts of generosity" on a personal scale.

Jan. 3, 2012 at 8:51 a.m.8



..Daphne PhilipsonArdsley on Hudson, NY



..It always intrigues me that the three fundamentals of the Catholic Church - opposition to abortion; contraception and celibacy for its priests - are tenets that divide men and women. The Church has to be the most misogynistic organization on the planet. They claim to cherish women but if a woman has a difficult pregnancy her life must be sacrificed for the child. The Blessed Mother was married but has to be depicted as someone who did not sleep with her husband and gave birth as a virgin. Impregnated by a dove. The Church is totally insane but most importantly is not female friendly.

Jan. 3, 2012 at 8:51 a.m.5

[Husky]

3/4



The comments continued.

..Judith KrumDeland, Florida



..Back in the early 1970's, a man came to the office of the Episcopal Church in Bennington, VT, and asked for directions to the "Catholic Church." The rector, a former RAF pilot, drew up his stature and replied in his pristine British English, "My good man, this is the Catholic Church." That about sums it up.

Jan. 3, 2012 at 8:51 a.m.3

..Ed SchwartzreichWaterbury, VT



..Yes, and those of us who want to get closer to the original true Christianity will leave the Roman Catholic Church for one of the Eastern Orthodox Churches, as these predate the East-West schism out of which the RCC was created. Or we can create / join a sect which seems closest to what we imagine true Christian worship really means.



And then we all can live in our gated religious communities.

Jan. 3, 2012 at 8:51 a.m.

..dee New York





..What an excellent example of unification efforts across denominations. At the same time, the Holy Spirit is at work in other ways. For example, I am a member of a small Christian community that welcomes the gifts of every person no matter one's gender, age, ethnicity or Christian tradition. What a wonderful manifestation of the blossoming of Christ's way,truth and life!



Many disaffected Christians who are tired of the fear and power tactics of their former denominations have found comfort and peace in these new communities.



At the same time, the focus is on following Christ as a model of love in action. So many good things are happening as members focus on community needs and social justice.



Finally, we meet in homes,fire halls and community centers. Thus, our communities are not building a real estate empire but rather relationships.

Jan. 3, 2012 at 8:50 a.m.

..TRSaint Paul, MN





..Conservative Angkicans who "flee" to the Catholic Church will be surely disappointed to discover they have no refuge with us. We Catholics will not put up with the anti-women and anti-gay stances of the Catholic hierarchy any more than their own Anglican family would countenance it.

Jan. 3, 2012 at 8:48 a.m.5

..TedShow Low, AZ





..Married priests. It's about time. All you have to do is join the Episcopal Church, get married and then become a Catholic. Perfect.

Jan. 3, 2012 at 8:46 a.m.6



..Jack New Jersey





..Actually, there was a time when the RC Church was moving in a more liberal direction -- in the 60's following Vatican II. If they had stayed on that trajectory, they _might_ have loosened celibacy rules more broadly by now; maybe even considered ordaining women, though I doubt they would have yet come to the more inclusive stance of the Episcopal Church for GLBT folk. That's been a slow and hard enough struggle for us Episcopalians, and being a much larger and more rigid institution, the RC Church inevitably changes more slowly.



Sadly, a string of conservative popes, of whom Benedict is the most recent, stopped the liberalizing trends in the RC Church and have then reversed that movement. It is hard to believe that they might return to that trend in the foreseeable future.

Jan. 3, 2012 at 8:41 a.m.7

..TimMaine



..Note to the reporter, Erik Eckholm. I know every reporter wants his story to appear truly significant, but what if that one sentence in the middle of your story had not used the word "more" three (!) times, but had instead read--equally truthfully--"So far, "fewer than 120 priests and groups totalling less that 1,400 including six congregations of fewer than 100, have asked to join..." ? It would kind of temper your obvious view that the story is of great consequence, but give it a little more balance. In fact had you asked Canon Robertson for some estimates on his point of Catholics becoming Episcopalians, or done some independent reporting on this, I suspect you'd find that the "new home" being offered is vastly more significant in the other direction.

Jan. 3, 2012 at 8:40 a.m.7

..Mouse Woman of the Northwest CoastWashington State



..The converse is also true--the Episcopal Church welcomes disillusioned Catholics who have had it with homophobia, misogyny, authoritarianism, cover-ups of criminal activity, intrusion into personal conscience, and the ever-growing lack of respect for our Constitutional separation of church and state.

Jan. 3, 2012 at 8:40 a.m.15

..Ed BurkeLong Island, NY



..The common ignorance is the Catholic Church is ruled by the Pope, it is not. The Catholic Church began 2000 years ago when Jesus Christ said to Saint Peter and no one else, "Thou Art Peter and Upon This Rock, (meaning Peter) I shall build my church, and the gates of Hell will not prevail against it ."(meaning His one church teachings will never be wrong, never fall into apostasy). Notice Jesus also did NOT say churches, no plural. Only ONE church, not the 33,000 different 'Faith Commumities' now calling themselves 'Christian" in just the U.S. alone.



Then Jesus gives His One & only church a leader, an 'Office', to be passed down, and the authority of that leader is found in Jesus telling him this next statement, " I will give you (St. Peter) the Keys (a term used throughout scripture to denote an office)To The Kingdom of Heaven. Whatever you (holder of this office ) bind on Earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." So on issues realting to faith, and morals the final arbiter is the person currently holding this awesome power. So yes there are fallible, often stupid, often weak, often sinful men in that church, and even a few popes,yet the promise has never and will never be broken because Jesus is God, a fact made clear in what Jesus did and said while on earth ("Before Abraham came to be, I AM")Christ rules His Church, and He uses the popes,265 so far, to accomplish this.

Jan. 3, 2012 at 8:40 a.m.4

..Chris Dudley Maryland



..Discernment of God's will for the Episcopal Church has a democratic component since decisions are taken by the Convention. And, the congregations have strong representation at Convention. But the process is still prayerful discernment. Because of this, I've always supported sending our most conservative members to Convention because they are the ones who must wrestle most deeply with the changes to Church tradition that a calling to Christian love seems to require.



For some, though, participation in democratic process cannot persuade of the outcome. It is a blessing therefore that an non-democratic residual remains as a temporary refuge for them. Rome's acceptance of married converted clergy for some time now has meant that change is coming for the Catholic Church too. It is good that the Episcopal Church can lead the way so that the brittleness of the Catholic hierarchy, which caused so much physical hardship when it shattered in the Reformation, might be eased.



Deep down in the Christian message is the idea that God's Law is fulfilled, not reformed. And, it is the role of love to bring about that fulfillment. This Episcopal salient into the Catholic structure, born out of deep and wrenching contemplation, may play an important future role in that fulfillment.

Jan. 3, 2012 at 8:40 a.m.3

..Rankin FyleAtlanta



..As long as you are a conservative you are welcome in the Catholic Church.

Pathetic.

Jan. 3, 2012 at 8:40 a.m.3

..UtahrebFort Mohave, AZ



..First thought - money, money, money, money - more members, more money.

Jan. 3, 2012 at 8:40 a.m.2

..hezekiah Oklahoma City



..As an Episcopalian let me say, that the Vatican should have taken a closer look at us Anglicans prior to allowing some of us in. Between 600 and 400 years ago, this kind of thing when on in Europe all the time both ways. I don't think the "divorces, remarriages" went easily.

Jan. 3, 2012 at 8:40 a.m.

..Reese S. RickardsFruitland, Maryland



..The article quotes a former Episcopalian, now Roman Catholic priest, saying, “This is not an effort at poaching or sheep-stealing.” That said, if the Episcopal Church begins to actively recruit disaffected Catholics, say divorced people who are excommunicated, then that won't be poaching or sheep-stealing, either. As it is already there are precious few Episcopal congregations without a number of former Roman Catholics as members. And the Episcopal Church hasn't even been trying to tell them about itself.

Jan. 3, 2012 at 8:40 a.m.2

..McCoo Bergen County NJ



..Misogynist and hypocritical it certainly is. Disaffected Anglicans weren't thinking about crossing the Tiber back in the 1970s, when Episcopalians first ordained women, nor in the '90s, when Anglicans approved of the ordinations. Not until there were women bishops did conservative male priests realize that a woman might actually have authority over them. THEN the men decided to walk across those storm-tossed waters of the culture wars toward the Vatican. It's about keeping authority-- and power-- in the hands of males. But that's not what Christianity is about. Episcopalians can thank God that the young seminarians GL6 mentions, who mistake their right-wing political orientation for a divine call to the priesthood, will not be seeking places in Episcopalian churches.

Jan. 3, 2012 at 8:40 a.m.8

..ChrisNJ



..Lost in this story is any mention of the many former Catholics who, like myself, have joined the Episcopalian Church because of our opposition to the exclusion of women as priests, our belief that birth control and homosexuality are not sins, and, of course, the sexual abuse of children and subsequent cover-up by Church authorities. I suspect many more people have left the Catholic Church than are joining.

Jan. 3, 2012 at 8:40 a.m.8

..PeterSan Francisco



..Eastern Rite Catholic Churches in communion with the Roman Catholic Church have long had married priests. This has been the case with the Ukrainian Catholic Church since the 16th century. This was not done as "an act of generosity" but rather an act of Realpolitik. Rome can be flexible--at first--when embracing new communities but beware. The new Episcopalian Catholics will have to be eternally alert and vigilant in defending their identity in their new home. Future popes and Curias may "reinterpret" agreements in efforts to fully assimilate the newcomers. The Eastern Rite Churches have had to vigorously defend their interests over the centuries and this new community of American Catholics will have to learn to do the same.

Jan. 3, 2012 at 8:40 a.m.4

..FrankLewis



..Does anyone see this differently in that it may actually be the first step taken by the Catholic Church to eventually, fully allow married priests and current priests to marry? I'm not saying this will happen right away....probably many years from now...but I do think it starts to (more easily*) pave the way for Rome to make the needed/radical change in this direction...if for nothing else, to self-preserve Catholicism as a viable religion in the future. Just a thought.



*something like "For x years we have welcomed and allowed former Episcopal priests to remain married and we now extend that to current and future RC priests"

Jan. 3, 2012 at 8:40 a.m.

..KRT186 San Francisco



..To our departing brothers and sisters: don't let the (red) door hit you on the way out. And when you want to return -- as many of you will -- use the same one. The Episcopal Church Welcomes All.

[Husky]

4/4



Some further comments from the link again.

DisgustedMerrimack NH



..One unkind but accurate quip among Catholics is that they now end up with the bigots from the Episcopalian church. Groan.



A friend's New York Catholic parish had an Episcopalian transplant who turned out to be a disaster. He embodied the worst of the old Catholic mentality that meant the priest was a cut above, and should be in complete charge of parish affairs. Keep your lay opinions to yourself.



Remember as well those going the other way. Episcopal Canon Charles Robertson is right. I know of one Episcopalian church that had so many converts from Catholicism, they started a special support group for them.



Many Catholics are leaving in disgust and disagreement over Catholic positions on contraception and women priests. A huge majority of Catholics already support and practice artificial birth control, and I believe a majority of Catholics also support women priests.



There is no going back, folks, despite the current papacy's penchant for the triumphal days of yore.

Jan. 3, 2012 at 8:03 a.m.5

..craneCA



..As a practicing Catholic, I welcome this historic shift. I have heard the complaint that the Vatican pulled off a ‘theft’ but I disagree. No one is forced into this decision and certainly these experienced clergy have the wherewithal to discern their own path.



Although the constraint is that married clergy are an exemption and unmarried

clergy will remain so, I can’t help but feel the whole thing will be an experiment

with priests who have marital ties. Change must begin somewhere. Many in The Catholic church believe priests should be allowed to marry. Having friends who are pastors of protestant churches, however I do see how incredibly difficult it is to shepherd a congregation and a growing family. More will be revealed. For now, I think it’s an opportunity for a great deal of dialogue. With the Archbishop of Canterbury lambasting secular Britain from the pulpit, it seems all manner of new things are afoot.



I’m sure Henry the VIII is rolling in his grave but for me, I just say: Amen!

Jan. 3, 2012 at 8:03 a.m.8

..Lawrence [color="#0000FF"]kampala,uganda[/color]

[color="#800080"](A Ugandan in the Anglican debate. Of course. I forgot how touchy converted Africa - IIRC even India - was about the issues behind the internal bickering I mean dissent in the Anglican church.)[/color]



..Mr.Ted Morgan,

Don`t be confused over that because the Spirit of God is working among it`s people.

So,you should expect so many people to leave their denominations joining the only catholic and Apostolic church.

Those who wish to join,don`t think they do it on their own.

The Catholic church in built on a rock as Jesus said to St.Peter.

Jan. 3, 2012 at 8:03 a.m.4

..jbmidwifeColoradao



..The "schism" isn't really so very big, the Anglican Church has survived worse - and the excuse of gay clergy is a smokescreen for the real misogyny at work. The "schism" in the Anglican Church is because the Bishop of the United States is a woman.

Jan. 3, 2012 at 8:03 a.m.2



[...]

..Jason D'Haviland FirestoneRancho Santa Fe, CA



..The fact is, that the actual demographic trend in US Episcopal communities, is that most are 50-70 % comprised of ex-Catholics, and ex-Lutherans. So if a few go in the other direction, it in no way would even begin to approach the movement away from the Roman Church. I found it humorous that the parish in Maryland was voting to leave the Episcopal Church, and join the Romans, as indeed it was the LAST time they will ever be voting on anything. <img src='http://www.india-forum.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' /> Exactly

Jan. 3, 2012 at 8:03 a.m.7





[...]

..marthasmarythis world



..The great irony? The Episcopal church is long the refuge for Romans seeking a haven from the Roman (catholic-- but we are all catholic) corruption and usurpation. "All of the catholic, none of the guilt."



We are saddened at the "loss" of the children who prefer corruption, but we know they will be accountable for their choice. Anyone who feels that the Roman interpretation of the God's word may be questionable, give the ECUSA a try. There you will find the Jesus you were taught about -- not the one the Vatican wants you to perceive now. Pope John the 23rd was right -- and he was a martyr for it. Come home when you are ready.

Jan. 3, 2012 at 8:03 a.m.2

..ambrosebutler pa.



..This is not that unusual. For years Lutheran clergy have swiched to the Catholic Church as married men and a branch of the Eastern Orthodox church with married priests, have been joined with Rome for a very long time. [...]



.jharris99Healdsburg, CA



..The breakaway churches are returning to an organization that has no moral standing - nil - nada? After 1500 years of pedophilia the church still feels it can condemn others? That almost as much hubris as believing that some God sent his "only" son to a minor planet with billions upon billions of planets seemingly able to support life. (Yes, only the non-christoislamics ever have the presence of mind to make that observation...)

And btw folks - one doesn't need a God in order to form a values system.

Jan. 3, 2012 at 7:41 a.m.2

...CharlesSan Jose, Calif.



..Albert Einstein in 1936 said, “Everyone who is seriously concerned about the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the Universe—a spirit vastly superior to that of man, and one in the face of which we with our modest powers must feel humble.”

-------------------------

Eternity is a long time. Choose wisely, atheists and apostates.

Jan. 3, 2012 at 3:48 a.m.2

.Read All 4 Replies

J DubbUSA



..Einstein also said "It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropomorphic concept which I cannot take seriously. I feel also not able to imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere. My views are near to those of Spinoza: admiration for the beauty of and belief in the logical simplicity of the order and harmony which we can grasp humbly and only imperfectly."

Jan. 3, 2012 at 8:03 a.m.2

..Gregert JohnsonBradford, NH



..For Einstein, "spirit" represented the ineffable, almost miraculous existence of order in the universe, the understanding of which was the noblest of mankind's aspirations. For Charles, "spirit" is evidently a vengeful, flesh-eating demon with which to frighten children and the unchurched.

Jan. 3, 2012 at 8:03 a.m.2

...davidapexFlorida

(Poor Einstein. After he died, the christoislamic terrorists have been trying to claim him as one of them - can't leave his genius unclaimed, now can they?

Meanwhile, I think Einstein's views above can well be construed as pantheistic.)



..50% of all Episcopalians are divorced Catholics. Any hope for us? Thought not.....



I'll stay with my wonderful, small Episcopal church.....

Jan. 3, 2012 at 3:48 a.m.14

.proud believer in equal rightssan francisco



..I believe the Catholic Church would not recognize your marriage, and would therefore not count the divorce a barrier. However, I do not think you would be allowed to marry again. Please check this if you have an interest. I feel that the Episcopal church will be in many ways better off if all who harbor these feelings leave. However, judging by the photo, be aware that there appears to be a serious risk of morbid obesity in this group.

Jan. 3, 2012 at 8:03 a.m.2

...AndyPlumas County, California



..To each his and her own.

Jan. 3, 2012 at 3:48 a.m.2

..fern501Brussels, Belgium



..Is this how the religion wars are being fought now?

I like it better than the Saint Barthelemy massacreof 1572...

Jan. 3, 2012 at 3:48 a.m.2



[color="#800080"](No no. It is how the religious wars in the west are being fought today. Yesterday - and tomorrow - the catholic Croatian ustashe still roasted the orthodox Serbs alive in kilns (along with Jews and Roma).

Today, in Africa - even in India - christian denominations are brawling.

In the news, some christian denominations were brawling during the recent Yuletide period at some chuch in the Middle East that had been designated in the 4th century or so as having to do with non-existent jeebus' non-existent life.

All this internal brawling does not cover all religious wars however. Christians are still butchering heathens in heathen spaces like heathen pockets in South America, to SE Asia to of course India.)[/color]







..JackC5Los Angeles Co., CA



..It took me several paragraphs to find the real reason for this, but here it is:



"...broke with tradition on female priests and acceptance of homosexuality..."



Wow, those gays and those women, poor conservatives just can't control 'em.

Jan. 3, 2012 at 3:48 a.m.29

..Josh ThomasIndiana



..The Times' claim that the anti-Gay, anti-woman schism is tearing apart the Episcopal Church is exaggerated, out of date, old news at best, and the numbers quoted here illustrate that. "Over a hundred priests" out of 7000! "Congregations of 70 or more," as if that's a huge metric.



The reporter would have done better to add more interviews; say, the Duncanite Anglican Church in North America, which has lost nearly every lawsuit it faced, and Gene Robinson, the openly-gay Episcopal Bishop of New Hampshire.



Instead the reporter settles for one paragraph from a spokesman for the Episcopal Presiding Bishop - a woman elected overwhelmingly by her male peers.



The Episcopal Church is alive and well, doing better than anyone gives it credit for.



http://dailyoffice.org

Jan. 3, 2012 at 3:48 a.m.19

..CharlesSan Jose, Calif.



..While 92% of Americans believe in God, only 35% in Britain do, and 43% say they have no religion, according to Britain's National Centre for Social Research. The Church of England fell from 40% of the population in 1983 to 23% in 2009. My British friends argue that the demise of religion is a good thing…. British influence in the world has… gone off a cliff over the last century… the new, militant atheism that is becoming characteristic of Britain is a key reason. Atheism is a philosophy of nihilism in which nothing is sacred and all is an accident. While it has some brief, flashy moments, life is purposeless and meaningless. There is no soul to illuminate and no spirit to enliven—just dead, decadent flesh. Human love is a prank played by our genes ensuring the sexual propagation of the species……

---- Rabbi Shmuley Boteach , "Renewal: A Guide to the Values-Filled Life (Basic Books, 2010).

Jan. 3, 2012 at 3:48 a.m.3



[...]

..Jerry VandesicBoston



..Seems reasonable that someone who has discriminatory views would leave an organization that is abandoning those views and join an organization that still expoused those views. Bigots like to stick together -- there is strength in numbers.

Jan. 3, 2012 at 3:48 a.m.40

..hdnevets Washington DC



..I don't have a dog in this fight-- I'm Quaker-- but I do think that it's hilarious that a church that formed because Henry wanted to divorce his wife now cries foul because Henry has decided to marry his boyfriend.

Jan. 3, 2012 at 3:48 a.m.44

.jharris99Healdsburg, CA



..It's not the Church - it's a few reactionary bigots that do not accept gays or women in the priesthood. And BTW, Mr. Quaker, the Church of England was in the process of formation long before Henry VIII.

Jan. 3, 2012 at 7:26 a.m.4



..A Father Maryland



..I would be curious to know how many people have left the Catholic Church for other denominations in the past five years, I suspect that the outflow is more than the inflow.

Jan. 3, 2012 at 3:48 a.m.35



..MaggiemayPearl River, New York



..My heartfelt congrats to the new converts. Thank you to the Times for this article. In response to all those who dislike the Catholic church and comment from this viewpoint; the Church has been in existence for over 2000 years and Jesus himself appointed a Pope. Remember the Anglican Church began when Henry wanted to brush Catherine of Aragon Spain aside. So from the beginnings the split was for selfish concerns. We all live in a river of time. How we act and behave will affect those downstream. You are here, living and breathing because probably when you were conceived a Man loved a Woman and abortion on demand was not possible. All these rules and beliefs exist for a reason. They help life continue so think a little more selflessly.

The sexual abuse scandal was terrible and many have suffered. The Catholic church was not the only entity that experienced this - it will come out of the ashes stronger. This new decision is only one small sign that the church will grow and become stronger in the hearts of its members.

God Bless you all in 2012.

Jan. 3, 2012 at 3:48 a.m.7

.SueSanta Barbara, CA. USA



..The church didn't decide to ban abortion until it realized that it was a valuable political tool. Abortion was not always the hot potato it is today. The early, and up to our grandparent's lifetime, church did not pay it much mind. And hopefully, the issue will once again become less important, as issues do that see-saw through time.

Jan. 3, 2012 at 7:41 a.m.5

..DludNew York City



..God bless you, too, Maggiemay. Common sense, I call it.

Jan. 3, 2012 at 8:51 a.m.4

...RPWJackson



..This article makes me proud once again to be an Episcopalian, the Church that provides the Eucharist to all sorts and conditions of people in their need for Christ, and to wonder, once again: when will the RCC ever reform, democratize, accept lay leadership, and once and for all break up the old boy's club in the Vatican?

Jan. 3, 2012 at 3:48 a.m.26

[...]

Etcetera etcetera. More comments at link. Though, going in the direction of reverse chronology, there appears to be some hints of an increasing presence of catholics entering the fray to do apologetics, counter-castigate and perform the all-important PR/advertising to market their deadly product.

[Husky]

http://haindavakeralam.com/HKPage.aspx?P...277&SKIN=B

Surya Namaskar will promote [color="#FF0000"]communal[/color] discord - Christian body

14/01/2012 06:36:24 With Inputs from Daily Pioneer



Bhopal: According to a Christian body from Bhopal Surya Namaskar will promote communal discord in a multi-religious society.





[...]

The Keralite Missionary , [color="#FF0000"]Isai Maha Sangh[/color] convenor told in a statement here that they will approach Guinness World Records authorities asking them not to include the event, as it promotes communal discord in a multi-religious society.



[...]

Christianism uses double-speak. It has its own coded language.



- Whenever you come across the word "communalism", you have to know to read "offence to jeebusjehovallah/against commandment #1" aka "paganism=hinduism".

- Whenever you come across the word "secular", you have to read "promotes christoislamism/discourages hinduism=paganism".

Do that for all news items in the English language media in India, and all the religion-related decisions by the christogovt, and you will be reading the coded news correctly.



So in the above piece, when the christoloons parroted the islamaniacs in booing at Surya Namaskaram, instead of reading the christo-argument as

"Surya Namaskaram will promote communalism", read:

"Surya Namaskaram will promote paganism" or "Surya Namaskaram will offend jeebusjehovallah" or "Surya Namaskaram is against the bible's 1st commandment".

[dhu]

[color="#0000FF"][url="http://www.asianage.com/columnists/inhumanity-norway-140"]Inhumanity in Norway[/url][/color]

by Swapan Dasgupta

In the matter of bringing up children, what the Norwegian authorities are demanding is not emotional sustenance but homogenisation



The establishment of an all-embracing “nanny state” has been a cause of concern to many sensible, right-thinking citizens of the European Union (EU). In Britain, to cite just one example, there is anger and exasperation over the way apprehended illegal immigrants have been able to avert deportation by falling back on the EU’s human rights legislation. The so-called right to family life has been successfully used by those who have broken the law to prevent constituent nations from acting against them. So absurd is the situation that illegal immigrants were even able to cite the ownership of a cat and membership of a local cricket team to earn for themselves the right to stay in a country where they had overstayed their welcome.



It is against this bizarre backdrop of an over-regulated state, replete with gratuitous codification of daily life, that we must view the strange case of Anurup and Sagarika Bhattacharya, Indian citizens resident in the Norwegian town of Stavenger.



In May 2011, the child welfare department of the town took the couple’s two children, a son aged two and a daughter then barely five months old into custodial care. The Bhattacharyas were accused of dereliction of parental responsibilities.



What were the faults of the Bhattacharyas, a normal middle-class couple with the husband working as a geo-scientist with Halliburton, a well-known US company? In the courts where the case was heard, the account of parental negligence was provided. These included the absence of separate rooms for the children, the lack of appropriate toys, the absence of a separate diaper changing table and the fact that the son slept in the same bed as the parents and was fed by hand — which allegedly amounted to “force feeding”. The mother was also guilty of breast feeding the daughter in an unsuitable way. According to a report in an Indian newspaper, filed from Oslo, the authorities argued in court “that when the mother breast-fed the infant, she put her on her lap without holding her, holding the head against the breast but not close to her body”. Taken together with the fact that the mother had admitted to once slapping her son — a prohibited act under Norwegian law — the Child Welfare Service concluded that the mother failed to look after the children’s emotional needs. The larger interests of the children, it felt, were better served by placing them in foster homes.



The city court of Stavanger agreed with the Child Welfare Service and sent the children to foster homes. As an act of generosity, it allowed the parents to see their children — one of whom was still being breast-fed — twice each year for two hours. In a further revision by the Country Board of the Child Welfare Service it has now been stated that the children must remain in foster homes till they are 18 years of age but would be allowed to spend three hours each year with their parents in three separate visits of an hour each.



The sheer inhumanity of the Norwegian state defies belief. What happened to the Bhattacharyas is not merely the result of the perverted thinking of authorities that believe they know better than the natural parents of children. It is also an outcome of insular Europeans not knowing and not bothering to appreciate the fact there is no prescribed way of bringing up children. That a child does not have a separate room and the fact that diapers were changed on the bed rather than on a table of a prescribed size are niggling issues. These have more to do with their parents’ financial priorities than a bid to wilfully scar the children emotionally. Indian children routinely share a bed with their parents or grandparents. This is often a function of space or gestures of affection and they haven’t resulted in India becoming a nation of the emotionally traumatised. Equally, if feeding a child by hand constitutes an inhuman act of force-feeding, more than 95 per cent of Indian parents would be found guilty of cruelty. Norway cannot dictate how an Indian family chooses to eat. By this absurd logic, Westerners in India should be advised that toilet paper is unhygienic and environmentally unsound!



Like many prosperous but insular countries, the authorities in Norway possess an infuriating sense of sanctimoniousness, believing that their habits, customs and worldviews are the only routes to well-being. There is no common sense view of right and wrong. In the matter of bringing up children, what the Norwegian authorities are demanding is not emotional sustenance but homogenisation. These are the hallmarks of a totalitarian system that believes children belong primarily to the state. Norway is not a totalitarian state but its social codes resonate with checklists of uniformity.



It is heartening that the Government of India has responded to the sense of outrage at home by summoning the Norwegian ambassador to South Block. It is said that a solution may be worked out with the grandparents of the children giving a helping hand to the Bhattacharya couple.



In other words, Norway will be given a face-saving way out that stops short of its authorities admitting that what happened to the Bhattacharyas was a gross violation of their human rights, particularly their right to a family life and their right to pursue cultural practices. India has a moral duty to rescue two of its children who have become victims of judicial abduction.



-------------------------------------------------------------

Rishi Raj Manglesh



Dear Swapan,



Very well said.



"Like many prosperous but insular countries, the authorities in Norway possess an infuriating sense of sanctimoniousness, believing that their habits, customs and worldviews are the only routes to well-being. There is no common sense view of right and wrong."



I am currently working in Norway. Although I have had good stay so far but this was a shocker !!



Regards



----------------------------------------

It is not only about Norway



Virat



It is not only about Norway returning kids to the couple. Even if we assume that the couple is incompetent, what gives Norway the 'responsibility' to think for all children within Norwegian boundaries?



They should be bothered about adults who have the duty to follow law of the land but the minors have not broken any law. Minors are a responsibility of the country they come from i.e. India. Did they ask India to remove the kids from Norway as they were not being taken care of?



No they did not. They don't want to. Every confiscated child provides job to a family, psychologists, care workers et. al. It also contributes to the young population, ageing fast. The same generosity of state support is not extended to minors of resident aliens who are being looked after well. They apparently saw a soft target in Bhattacharyas and pounced on them.



What out of court settlement is being reached remains to be seen. There are rumors that the Norway agency might have the rights to inspect welfare of children in India?! Hello? Is Kolkata a fiefdom of Norway? In the euphoria of getting the children back, India SHOULD NOT end up in any agreement that undermines her sovereignity to decide for and be responsible for her Citizens.



Norway's Barnevarnet (child welfare agency), has an extremely poor track record in upholding cherished human values. They operate clandestinely, do not respect individual's privacy, do not shy from breaking laws of other countries, are not able to assure safety from sexual assaults and of course are too eager to assume someone else's 'responsibility'. They are good to sending foster families on vacations to south of France. Barnevarnet, do one good act, next time you see some foreigner evading his or her parental responsibility in your country - bring their negligence to the notice of their home country. This is basic civic courtesy that is not too hard to follow. If they dont come to take the children over, do what you would do with them. Thank you.



The following link takes to an article published in Norway News, that supports Swapan's insights in totality



http://www.norwaynews.com/en/~view.php?7...BHn353Q4R8

------------------------------------------

[G.Subramaniam]

Pueblo Indians who were forced to convert to Catholicism. If they didn't, their feet were cut off.

[dhu]

NGO officials detained for sexually harassing children

http://m.timesofindia.com/city/bangalore...091665.cms



BANGALORE: Two officials of a non-governmental organisation were detained by police for allegedly sexually harassing and brutally assaulting children at its shelter. Devanahalli Airport police station officers confirmed that John Charles, general manager, Church of Christ, an NGO located on Bellary Road in Chellaghatta, and board member, John Williams, were picked up for questioning.



They said a case with multiple charges, including sexual abuse and assault, will be booked against the duo after interrogation. On Wednesday evening, Child Welfare Committee (CWC) members raided the home following a complaint lodged with them through Childline, a children's helpline, on Tuesday night by anonymous persons and rescued 42 children - 19 girls and 23 boys all between the age of 8 and 18.



Nina Nayak, chairperson, Karnataka State Commission for Protection of Child Rights (KSCPCR), said girls in the home told counsellors they had been sexually abused. After the complaint from Childline, CWC first visited the home and realized the matter was grave before conducting the raid.



CWC members told TOI there were visible injury marks on the children's bodies. All the children will be relocated to different homes and will be produced before the CWC court. Two girls have been sent back to their parents. "We're moving the remaining girls to the APSA home nearby and the boys will be moved to the Don Bosco home. On Thursday, boys will be produced in the CWC Court No 1 and girls in CWC Court No 2 on Friday," said Meena Jain, chairman, CWC Court No 2.

[G.Subramaniam]

Pastor Sentenced to Three Years in Bhutan Prison

Gospel For Asia ^ | March 17, 2012

Posted on Thu Mar 22 2012 19:32:29 GMT-0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) by wmfights



The Bhutan High Court sentenced Gospel for Asia-supported missionary *Ugyen Tashi to three years in prison for “attempting to promote civil unrest” for showing a film about Jesus.



On May 21st, carrying a generator and a projector, Ugyen walked for two days into interior villages of Bhutan with a single purpose—to give people a chance to learn about Jesus.



But when one of the village chiefs learned of the movie’s content, he informed the chief of his district, who then called the police to arrest Ugyen.



Investigations and Questionings



The days following the arrest were a whirlwind of investigations, questionings, postponements, police statements and waiting.



While police investigated his case, Pastor Ugyen was kept in a small, dark, mosquito-filled room along with three other inmates.



On June 14, the police attempted to search Pastor Ugyen’s house, but they were unable to enter because the house was locked.



In need of more information, the police sent a team to the villages where Ugyen showed the Jesus film to reinvestigate and conclude whether people were converted through the screening.