Rama Setu -2

Husky · (This post was last modified: 09-17-2007, 07:23 PM by Husky.)

QUOTE(Bodhi @ Sep 17 2007, 05:17 PM)Singhavi, pained that the religion of Bhagawad Gita has been reduced to "this", has not read:
... raamah shastrabhritaam aham ... (BG 10/31)
amongst all shastra-weilders, I am Ram[right][snapback]73252[/snapback][/right]You hit upon it there: Sanghvi has in all likelihood not read the Gita, full stop. He heard it was philosophical and profound from many Hindoos. But of course he ignored them. But when he later heard some western people say the same - good native that he is - he memorised their opinions and regurgitated those. He can totally avoid reading BG now that they've told him what to think. (Adept psecular Indian that he is, he dare not think for himself and come to an opinion independently.) You know, nothing is cool for the psecular copycat unless the west says it is. For confirmation you need but ask that - briefly a member - Nandu "The Romans Are Coming" Rajurikar. (By the way, where did that one go? Hadn't laughed that much in ages... "The Romans invaded India" - ooohhh, still funny!!!!!!)

09-17-2007, 07:39 PM

Someone should request Manmohan's opinion on this.

QUOTE
from: Dr Kalayanraman's site

Shri Ram in the Guru Granth Sahib
This article is a translation from Hindi of the chapter "Ram" in the book Adi Shri Guru Granth Sahib ki Mahima by Dr. K.P. Agrawal, published by Voice of India. It was translated by M. Shreenivas Somayaji.

The name of God most often lauded in the Granth Sahib, after that of Hari is Ram. Ram, Raja Ram, Raghunath and such other words occur approximately 2500 times in the Granth. In the Ramapurva Tapaneeya Upanishad, the various meanings of the word Rama are explained as follows: "Raajate vaa maheem sthitah san iti Raamah" that is, he who is on the earth and fulfills the deires of his devotees and is hailed as a king, is Rama. In other words, when Sacchidanand or Mahavishnu or Shrihari incarnated in the home of Dasharatha in the family of Raghu, He was named Rama. At whose hands, Rakshasas are destroyed, He is Rama. Or He who renders the Rakshasas powerless in His human form, is Rama. By his ideal behaviour, He guides kings in the way of Dharma. The utterance of His name results in the attainment of the way of Jnana. He grants Vairagya when He is meditated upon. He grants prosperity when his image is worshipped. For these reasons did His name become famous on the earth as Rama. The Vedas say that in fact yogis dwell (Sanskrit: Ram-) in the endless, ever-joyous, self-absorbed Brahma state, and so Parabrahma Universal Soul (Paramatma) is itself described as the Rama state. Thus, although Brahma is self-absorbed, non-dual, undivided and devoid of the five-elemental body, it manifests as a conscious body in order to fulfil the Bhaktas' desires. For love of the Bhaktas, the Nirakar (formless) Brahma assumes Narakaar (human form).

ghaT ghaT ramaiya ramat rAm rAI gur sabde gur liv lAge (Page 172)
(In every heart Rama is contained. Through the Gurus word, the love for God is contracted. )

nirguN rAmu guNah vasi hoI (page 222)
(Ram, who is without attributes is under the sway of man's merits. He, who effaces his self-conceit, reflects on the Lord.)

jat kat dekhao tat tat tum hI mohi ihu bisuAsu hoi Aio. kai pahi karau ardAs bentI jau sunto hai raghurAio (Page 205)
(Wherever I look, I find Thee there. I am now firmly convinced of it. Before whom should I make supplication and entreaty, when Raghurai himself is listening to everything.)

rAm ramahu baRaBAgio jal thal mahiali soI nAnak nAmi arAdhi-ai bighanu na lAgai koi (Page 521)
(O ye very fortunate ones, contemplate on Rama, who pervades the ocean, earth and sky. Nanak says, by meditating on the Name, no calamity befalls the mortal.)

The Granth has displayed a fondness for referring to the play of Paramatma on this earth in terms of Rama-avatar and Raja Ram:

jAnI jAnI re rAjA rAm kI kahAnI antari joti rAm pargAsA gurmukhi birlai jAnI (Page 970)
(O my love, I have known the story of the sovereign Rama. Within us Rama's light shines, but the rare one, by the Guru's guidance, becomes aware of it. )

The Granth Sahib declares in no uncertain terms that the name of Lord Rama, who took an avatar in the form of a king, is itself true knowledge of God.

rAjA rAm nAmu morA braham giyAnu (Page 1159)
(The Name of Raja Ram is divine knowledge for me.)

ubrat rAjA rAm kI saraNI (Page 215)
(One is saved by seeking the shelter of Raja Ram.)

Nanak Ji regards Raja Ram as more precious than all the wealth of the world. He says:

mAlu khajIna sut bhrAt mIt sabhhuM se piyArA rAm rAje ((Page 454)
(Raja Ram is dearer to me than all the wealth, treasures, son, brother and friend.)

By seeking refuge with such a Raja Ram, even the most sinful become holy. This idea is expressed in the words of Ravidas which are included in the Granth Sahib:

merI jAti kamInI pAti kamInI ochA janamu hamAra tum sarnAgati rAjA rAmcand kahi ravidAs camArA (Page 659)
(My caste is low, my lineage is low, and mean is my birth. I have taken shelter, King Rama, says Ravidas the cobbler.)

A glimpse of Lord Rama's divine, contemplative, lotus-like face is the very goal of Nanak's life. He wishes to establish the feet of Rama in his heart, through the grace of saints. He says:

avilokau rAm ko mukhArbind khojat khojat ratanu pAio bisrI sabh cind caran kamal rIdai dhAri, utariA dukhu mand raj dhanu parvAru mere sarbaso gobind sAdh sangami lAbhu pAio nAnak phir na marand (Page 1304)
(I behold the lotus-like countenance of Rama's face. Searching and seeking, I have found the jewel of the Lord's Name and am rid of all anxiety. By enshrining the Lord's feet in my heart, my suffering and foulness is shed. Govind is my dominion, wealth, family and everything. Nanak says, in holy company, I have earned that after which there is no death.)

A detailed description of Rama's avatarhood was later composed in the form of 'padAvalIs' by the poets, and were also included in the Granth. In these verses the poets have also sung the glories of the many Gurus. The reader can easily understand their contents from the verses given below:

raghupati tilaku sundaru dasrath ghari muni banchahi jAki saraNa (Page 1401) (The Guru is honoured as was the Supreme and beautiful Rama, in the house of Dashratha of the Raghava dynasty.)

gAvai jamadagni parasarAmesur kar kuThAr raghu teju hariO udhau akrUru vidaru guNa gAvai sarbAtamu jini jANiO kabi kal sujasu gAvau gur nAnak rAju jogu jini mAnNiO (Page 1389-90)
(His divine praise is sung by Parashurama, the son of Jamadagni, who was divested of his axe and powers by Raghuvira. Udho, Akrur and Bidur chant the glories of Guru Nanak, who had realized God, pervasive in themselves. Kal, the poet, sings the sublime praises of Guru Nanak, who enjoys both the temporal and spiritual empires.)

satjugi tai maNiO ChaliO bali bAvan bhAiO traite tai maNiO rAm raghuvaMsu kahAiO duApari krisan murAri kaMsu kirtarthu kiO ugrasaiN ka-u rAju amai bhagataha jan dIO kalijugi pramANu nAnak guru angadu amaru kahAiO (Page 1390)
(In Satyayuga, you sported as the dwarf incarnation, and fooled Bali. In Treta, you enjoyed being called Rama of the Raghu dynasty. In Dvapara, becoming Krishna, you killed the demon Mura, and delivered Kamsa. You bestowed the kingdom on Ugrasen, and the state of abhaya (fearlessness) on Your devotees. In the Kali yuga, you are called the Accepted Gurus Nanak, Angad and Amar.)

manahi na kIjai rosu jamahi na dIjai dosu nirmal nirbAN padu cInhi lIjai jasrath rAi nandu rAjA merA rAmcandu praNavai nAmA tatu rasu amritu pIjai (Page 973)
(Do not feel offended in thy mind and attribute not blame to Yama. Contemplate the immaculate dignity of salvation. Namdev prays, my Sovereign Lord is Ramachandra, son of King Dashrath. I quaff the essence of the immortalizing elixir.)

In India (Bharatvarsh) Ramrajya has always been an ideal for the welfare of the people. This is because it was during Rama's reign that mankind, and even the animal world, was free of the three kinds of suffering - bodily, physical and supernatural. The Granth Sahib has this to say of the ideal of Ramrajya:

rAkhanhAr apAr prabh tA kI nirmal sev rAm rAj rAmdAspuri kInhe gurdev (Page 817)
(The Lord is the Infinite Preserver. Pure is His service. The Divine Guru has established RamRajya in the city of Ram Das.)

Then is it surprising that Nanak ji would recommend to everyone to seek refuge at Rama's feet, or command them to sing the name of Rama ?

rAjA rAm kI sarNaI nirbha-u bha-e gobind gun gAvat sAdh sangi dukhu jA-i (Page 899)
(I have sought the shelter of King Rama. I have become free of fear by singing the praise of Govind, and in holy company pain goes away.)

But how is Rama to be worshipped, so that He can be attained ? The Granth Sahib answers this question as follows:

rAm japahu ji-u aise aise dhrU prahilad japi-O hari jaise (Page 337)
(As Dhruv and Prahlad meditated on Hari, so do thou, o my self, contemplate on Rama.)

Rama will dwell in the heart only when the heart is completely purified:

bikhi-A ajahu surati sukh AsA kaise ho-IhaiM rAjA rAm nivAsA (Page 330)
(Man is intent on sin, still he hopes for happiness. How shall he find an abode in Raja Ram ?)

When God Himself takes the responsibility of protecting the devotee, everything becomes full of joy:

ho-I rAje rAm kI rakhvAlI sukh sahaj Anand guN gAvahu manu tanu deha sukhAlI (Page 620)
(King Rama has given us protection. With peace, equipoise and joy, I sing the Lord's praise. My mind, body and human frame are at ease.)

Singing the boundless glory of Ramnam, the Granth Sahib says:

rAm nAmu hari bheTi-ai hari rAmai nAmi samAvaigO jo jo japai so-I gati pAvai jI-u dhr prahilAdu samAvaigo (Page 1309)
(By meeting with Rama's Name, one gets absorbed in RamNam. Whoever meditates on Him, is emancipated and merges in the Lord like Dhruv and Prahlad.)

jIvatu rAm ke guNa gA-i karahu kripA gopAl bIThule bisari na kabahi jA-i (Page 1223) (I live by singing the praises of Rama. O Gopal, show grace unto me, that I may never forget You.)

sAlgrAm bipa puji manAvahU sukritu tulasI mAlA rAm nAmu japi beRA bAMdh-hU da-i-A karahu da-i-AlA bagule te phuni haMsulA hovai je tU karahi da-i-AlA praNavati nAnaku dAsnidAsA da-i-A karahu da-i-AlA (Page 1171)
(O Brahmin, you worship and propitiate the stone-god and deem it a good act to wear the rosary of sweet basil. Build thou the ship of meditiation of Rama's Name and pray to the gracious Lord for grace. O Lord, if you be graceful, the heron turns into a swan. Nanak, the slave of Thy slaves, humbly supplicates, Gracious Lord, show grace. )

mAnga-u rAm te iku dAnu sagal manorath pUran hovahi simara-u tumrA nAmu (Page 682)
(I ask one boon from Rama. By meditating on Thy Name, all my desires are fulfilled.)

devA pAhan tArI-ale, rAm kahat jan kas na tare tArI le gaNikA binu rUp kubijA bi-Adhi ajAmilu tArI-ale dAsI sut janu bidaru sudAmA ugrasaiN ka-u rAj dI-ai japahIn tapahIn kulahIn kramahIn nAme su-AmI te-U tare (Page 345)
(God has caused the stones to float. Why should not I, Thy slave, float by repeating Thine Name? Thou hast saved Ganika and the hunch-back, and has caused the hunter and Ajamil to swim across. The man-slayer, who shot Krisha in the foot, even he was emancipated. Thou savedst Sudama and slave Vidur, son of a hand-maiden, and gave sovereignty to Ugrasen. Nam Dev's Lord has saved those without devotion, without penance, without good family lineage and without good acts.)

giri tar jal ju-AlA bhai rAkhiO rAjA rAm mA-iyA pherI (Page 1165) (Though he (Prahlad) was thrown down a mountain, a tree, put into water, and fire and subjected to the fear of death, Rama did always save him.)

In this terrible Kaliyuga, the Granth Sahib says, the only support is the name of Rama. This is also the verdict of the sages and seers. According to the Granth Sahib, a being (individual) has only one thing to do, and that is to take the name of Rama, and take the name hundreds of thousands of times.

ucarahu rAm nAm lakhbArI (Page 194)
(Utter thou the name of Rama a hundred thousand times.)

veda purAn simrit sudhAkhyar kIne rAm nAm ik Akhyar (Page 262)
(The Vedas, Puranas and Smritis, which are accepted as Holy Word, have all grown out of the sole Name of Rama.)

caturathi cAre veda suNi sodhiO tatu bIcAru sarab khem kali-AN nidhi rAm nAmu japi sAru (Page 297)
(Hearing the Vedas and pondering over their reality, I have ascertained that the sublime meditation of Rama's Name, is the treasure of all the joys and comforts. )

sasatra beda sodhi sodhi dekhe muni nArad bacan pukAre rAm nAmu paRahu gati pAvahu sat sangati guri nistAre (Page 983)
(The six Shastras and the four Vedas, I have carefully searched and seen. Narad, the silent sage, also utters the same words. That in the company of the holy and by the Guru's grace, man is emancipated and delivered by uttering Rama's Name.)

kaljug mahi rAm nAmu urdhAru (Page 1129)
(In this dark Age, enshrine thou Rama's Name in thy heart.)

kaljug mahi rAm nAmu sAru (Page 1130)
(In this Dark Age, devotion to Rama's Name is sublime and pure.)

Guru Nanak is so delighted by the praise of Lord Rama that he breaks out into song: rAm nAm gun gAvahu hari prItam updesi sukhu hota hari hare hari hare hare bhaju rAm rAm rAm sabh sisTi dhAr hari tum kirpAl kartA sabhu tU tU tU rAm rAm rAm jan nAnako sarNAgati dehu gurmati bhaju rAm rAm rAm (Page 1297)
(By singing the praise of the Name of Rama, according to the teaching of the Great Guru, one is blessed with peace. So meditate on Ram, Ram, Ram. O merciful Hari, You cherish the whole world, and You, You and You alone, Rama, are the Creator of All. Slave Nanak seeks shelter. Bless him with the Guru's teaching so that he may reflect over Rama's Name.)

We are all familiar with this verse composed by Guru Tegh Bahadur: rAm simar rAm simar ihai teri kAji hai... rAm bhaju rAm bhaju janamu sirAtu hai (Page 1352)
(Contemplate Rama, contemplate Rama, O man. This alone shall be of avail to thee.... Meditate on Rama, meditate on Rama, your life is passing away.)

In the final words of the Granth Sahib, on page 1429, Guru Nanak says in mysterious, moving and inspiring words:

sang sakhA sabh taji ga-e ko-u na nibahi-O sAth kahu nAnak iha bipat mai Tek ek raghnAth
(My companions and friends have all left me. None has remained with me to the last. Nanak says, in this calamity, Raghunath is my only support.)

The tenth Guru Shri Govind Singh Maharaj has devoted a whole composition "Ramavtar" to the story of the complete avatar of God in the form of Rama. It comprises of 864 verses. Towards the end of the poem, in the 859th verse, the Guru writes these beautiful words to describe the fruits of reading the story of Rama:

jo yah kathA sune aru gAvai, dukh pAp tih nikaT na Avai, Vishan Bhagat kI ai phal ho-I, Adhi vyAdhi chavai sake na ko-I
(Whoever listens to and sings this story, will be free of sin and sorrow. The fruits of devotion to Vishnu are that disease and pain will never affect the devotee.)

Transliteration scheme:
Indic words have been transcribed as in their popular spelling when they occur in the middle of English text. The quotations have been transliterated as follows: Capital letters indicate long vowels or retroflex (cerebral) consonants. "M" stands for a nasalization. Two adjacent vowels, not separated by a hyphen, are to be read as a diphthong.

Reference:
The English translation of the verses quoted (given in brackets) have been taken from the "Shri Guru Granth Sahib" by Pritam Singh Chahil, with a minimum of editing. Unlike the learned translator, the present tranlator has chosen to retain "Saguna" words for the divine, as in the original. For example, the word "Ram" in the Adi Granth has often been translated as "Lord" in Shri Chahil's tranlation. In this article, "Ram", "Raghunath" etc. are left unchanged.

http://www.hinduweb.org/home/sikh/rverma/agrawal2.html

09-17-2007, 07:42 PM

This is (retd) Sr ASI who's put over 30 years in ASI

QUOTERamarSethu and ASI

I had the opportunity to be an Archaeologist in Archaeological Survey of India since 1970, and recently retired and would like to bring out the following facts about Ramar Sethu Issue. To my knowledge no archaeological expedition of any type either on Shore or off shore was conducted to document the facts about the Ramar Sethu Bridge. Neither there is any official publication on the type of Remains there.

I was shocked to see the Affidavit filed by ASI in the Apex Court. It was based on secondary resources from some other Agency. None of Archaeologists, especially my old colleagues could have gone to that level to file a casual Affidavit in the highest court of the country. To my solace, now it is learnt that the officials involved both are not Archaeologists but Administrative Officers. One is an Assistant Director and another is Director Administration. The latter is from Indian Revenue Service and entered the Survey on Deputation few months back and bypassed the Senior Archaeologists of ASI and misinformed the Apex Court. The decline of the standard of ASI is not a sudden one, but for the past two decades Archaeologist is not allowed to head it. Due to some flaw in the Central Recruitment Rules amended during 1980s, no Archaeologist is made eligible to be the Director General and IAS personnel lead it one by one with out even basic knowledge on History or Archaeology.

They represent the Nation in many International Bodies like UNESCO on Archaeological matters and misrepresent the facts many times. This time due to sensitivity of the Subject they were trapped in the Apex Court. No Governement including BJP ever attempted to post a technical DGA. We hope atleast now the Government will wake up to restore the lost glory of the Survey.

T.Satyamurthy
Superintending Archaeologist (Rtd), ASI,
26/43, Janakiraman Street, West Mambalam
Chennai.33

09-17-2007, 08:37 PM

QUOTERamarSethu and ASI 
I had the opportunity to be an Archaeologist in Archaeological Survey of India since 1970, and recently retired and would like to bring out the following facts about Ramar Sethu Issue. To my knowledge no archaeological expedition of any type either on Shore or off shore was conducted to document the facts about the Ramar Sethu Bridge. Neither there is any official publication on the type of Remains there.

I was shocked to see the Affidavit filed by ASI in the Apex Court. It was based on secondary resources from some other Agency. None of Archaeologists, especially my old colleagues could have gone to that level to file a casual Affidavit in the highest court of the country. To my solace, now it is learnt that the officials involved both are not Archaeologists but Administrative Officers. One is an Assistant Director and another is Director Administration. The latter is from Indian Revenue Service and entered the Survey on Deputation few months back and bypassed the Senior Archaeologists of ASI and misinformed the Apex Court. The decline of the standard of ASI is not a sudden one, but for the past two decades Archaeologist is not allowed to head it. Due to some flaw in the Central Recruitment Rules amended during 1980s, no Archaeologist is made eligible to be the Director General and IAS personnel lead it one by one with out even basic knowledge on History or Archaeology.

They represent the Nation in many International Bodies like UNESCO on Archaeological matters and misrepresent the facts many times. This time due to sensitivity of the Subject they were trapped in the Apex Court. No Governement including BJP ever attempted to post a technical DGA. We hope atleast now the Government will wake up to restore the lost glory of the Survey.

T.Satyamurthy
Superintending Archaeologist (Rtd), ASI,
26/43, Janakiraman Street, West Mambalam
Chennai.33

09-17-2007, 08:39 PM

QUOTEBJP threatens legal action over Ram Sethu affidavit 
September 17, 2007 18:02 IST
The Bharatiya Janata Party on Monday threatened legal action over the government's affidavit on the Ram Sethu in case Prime Minister Manmohan Singh [Images ] and Congress chief Sonia Gandhi [ Images] did not apologise.

"It is becoming increasingly evident that it (the affidavit) was not an inadvertent omission but a deliberate and conscious act. An offence under Section 295 (a) of the Indian Penal Code, punishable by three years in jail for hurting religious beliefs, already stands committed," BJP spokesman Ravi Shankar Prasad told reporters.

He pressed his party's demand that both Singh and Gandhi apologise to the nation for the affidavit that said there was no historical evidence to establish existence of Lord Ram and other characters of the Ramayana.

The affidavit has since been withdrawn. "The competitive politics of blame game in the government underscores the critical demand for apology from the Congress chief and the prime minister," he said.

The BJP leader also flayed Tamil Nadu Chief Minister M Karunanidhi for his remark that there was no historical evidence to prove Lord Ram's existence. "I would like to ask him if he can make a similar statement about any other faith," Prasad said.

The BJP, which is scheduled to hold its national executive meeting in Bhopal from September 21 may come up with a separate resolution on Lord Ram, a party source said. It will chalk out its political strategy for any mid-term election in the light of the row over the Ram Sethu affidavit, the source added.

http://www.rediff.com/news/2007/sep/17sethu1.htm

09-17-2007, 09:52 PM

QUOTECommunal govt's savage attack on Lord Rama & Ramayana 
V SUNDARAM
Â Â Â Â In these columns during the last four years, I have been consistent in describing the UPA Government in New Delhi under the stranglehold of a Catholic Lady from Italy as ï¿½Islam-embracing, Christianity-coveting and Hindu-hatingï¿½. Her main agenda, owing her allegiance to the Pope in Rome and not to the Indian Constitution, is to destroy Hinduism and Sanatana Dharma in India and the world. The UPA Government born as an illegitimate political baby conceived without any national passion out of the unscrupulous marriage of political convenience between the Sonia Congress party and the Communist Parties and a host of other Parties(of course, including the anti-North, anti-Hindu and atheistic DMK Party from Tamilnadu) is totally committed to the political marginalisation of Hindus, social debasement of Hindus, cultural devaluation of Hindus, religious decimation of Hindus and above all to the national de-recognition of Hindus as the main pith and core of our nation.

Â Â Â Â This Government of India, consisting of political toadies and touts randomly drawn from a conglomeration of political parties without any public ideology, is letting loose some of the worst and most soul-destroying forms of Hindu discrimination and blatant violation of Hindu Human Rights in an organised manner. Their only aim is to destroy Hindu Religion, Hindu Culture and Hindu Society in the next decade and thus ï¿½convertï¿½ all the living Hindu Gods of India like Lord Rama, Lord Krishna, Lord Vishnu, Lord Shiva, Lord Brahma, Goddess Durga, Goddess Lakshmi, Goddess Saraswati and several other Hindu Gods into dead artefacts of history like the dead Gods of Greece and Rome.

Â Â Â Â The most glaring and dramatic example of this catastrophe of State-sponsored Hindu cultural genocide is the affidavit that was filed by The Archaeological Survey of India (ASI) in the Supreme Court stating that there is no historical and scientific evidence to establish the existence of Lord Rama or the other characters of the Ramayana. Denying that the Ram Setu or Adams Bridge is a man-made structure, the ASI said Ramcharitmanas by Tulsidas cannot be taken as a historical record to ï¿½prove the existence of the characters or occurrence of eventsï¿½ depicted in it. C Dorjee, Director ASI (Monuments), fully brain-washed by the anti-Hindu and non-Hindu Christian Minister for Culture, Ambika Soni, atheistic and anti-Hindu Minister for Shipping and Transport, T R Baalu and ably assisted and abetted by the Union Minister for Law(-lessness?) H R Bhardwaj stated in his affidavit: 'The issue has to be approached in a scientific manner. With due deference to the petitioners, it cannot be viewed solely relying on the contents of a mythological text. The ASI is a science and technology department. The issue has to be approached and examined in a scientific manner. While due deference may be given to the feelings of the petitioners, the issue cannot be viewed solely relying on the contents of a mythological text.ï¿½ I would like to ask C Dorjee whether he would dare to approach and examine in the same scientific manner the sacred hair of Mohammed the Prophet in the Hazratbal Shrine in Srinagar in Kashmir. As one belonging to a Science and Technology Department, will he ask for a DNA test to prove the authenticity of this sacred relic? Will he ever dare to dismiss the Quran or the Bible as unscientific and mythological texts? The whole Western World knows that there is no irrefutable historical or scientific proof that Jesus Christ ever existed. Several outstanding historians including Edward Gibbon have clearly pointed out that there is no reference to Jesus Christ in the vast historical and philosophical literature left behind by the Greeks and the Romans belonging to the generally accepted time-bracket when Jesus is supposed to have lived. For example, Seneca (2 BC-66 AD), Pliny, the Elder (23 AD-79 AD), Martial (40 AD-102 AD), Plutarch (45 AD-125 AD), Juvenal (55 AD-140 AD) and many others do not mention any Jesus or Christ in their well known works and writings. Would Dorjee of the ASI who arrogates to himself the role of a Supreme Dictator in the matter of rigorous scientific proof regarding Lord Rama and the Ramayana, devote the same scientific attention to the historical or scientific proof in regard to the authenticity of Jesus Christ?

Â Â Â Â The affidavit filed by the ASI was in response to three petitions, transferred from the Madras High Court to the Supreme Court, challenging the Government's decision to construct the Sethusamudram Canal by dredging a portion of the Ram Setu. The raucously barbarous announcement of the Sonia-directed Government of India through this affidavit to go ahead with the destruction of the Ram-Sethu Bridge, with total contempt for the emotions and feelings of millions of Hindus in India and abroad, has naturally drawn violent angry reactions from the BJP and the VHP.

Â Â Â Â It may be pointed out here that Dr. S. Badrinarayanan, Geologist and former Director of Geological survey of India and Consultant for National institute of Ocean Technology, has said 'Geological & geophysical studies of Ram Sethu reveal the presence of loose marine deposits below the coral layer clearly indicating the coral layer in the form of boulders are not natural and formed on their own, but have been transported by somebody and dumped there; thus clearly establishing the fact that Ram Sethu is very much man-made in the hoary past'. In what way is Dr S Badrinarayanan less qualified to talk about the Ram Sethu Bridge in as scientific a way as the incomparable Mr Dorjee of the Archaeological Survey of India?

Â Â Â Â Panicked by the political repercussions and the VHP's move to go to the streets to mobilise public support, the Central government in a knee-jerk response decided to withdraw the 'offending remarks' from the affidavit which said 'there is no scientific or historical evidence to prove the existence of 'Lord Ram.' Union Law (-lessness?) Minister H R Bhardwaj shamelessly somersaulted from his earlier pseudo-secular anti-Hindu position and said with calculated dissimulation: 'Lord Ram is an integral part of Hindu faith and his existence can never be doubted. As Himalaya is Himalaya, Ganga is Ganga, Rama is Rama. It is a question of faith. There is no requirement of any proof to establish the existence based on faith'. He also announced that the government would file a supplementary affidavit on this issue before the Supreme Court and that would be cleansed of offending remarks.

Â Â Â Â Finally on 14 September, 2007 (Friday) Dr Subramaniam Swamy had the last laugh. The Central Government prostrated itself before the Supreme Court and withdrew its two affidavits including the controversial one filed by Archaeological Survey of India (ASI) on the Sethu Samudram Ship Canal Project issue. The Centre sought three months' time stating that it would re-examine the entire issue relating to the Project. The matter has been posted for hearing in the first week of January, 2008. In the meantime the Supreme Court has declared that the interim order restraining dredging activity at the Ram Setu or Adam's Bridge area would continue.

Â Â Â Â All the Hindus of India and the world have become fully aware of the proven fact that the greatest threat to the survival of Hindus, Hinduism and Sanatana Dharma today comes from no other quarter than the Government of India which is nothing but the Government of Sonia, by Sonia, and for Sonia and her family.

Â Â Â Â To quote the brilliant words of B R Haran: ï¿½If Lord Rama is a myth, then Lord Venkateswara must also be a myth! That being the case, why did this Italian woman Sonia visit Tirupati on her Sixtieth Birth Day? When a government can fight for the inclusion of Taj Mahal in the list of wonders of the world, why can't it do the same for the inclusion of Rama Sethu in the list of World Heritage Sites?ï¿½

Â Â Â Â NASA in USA has said ï¿½PHOTOS DON'T PROVE RAMA SETU'S EXSISTENCEï¿½. They have no business to talk about Rama Setu and the Himalayan Faith of millions and millions of Hindus in its eternal relevance and sacredness.

Â Â Â Â Faith of any kind, particularly in the field of religion, is beyond the purview of any Government or the State. Faith is not a series of gilt-edged propositions that you sit down to figure out, and if you follow all the logic and accept all the conclusions, then you have it. It is crumpling and throwing away everything, proposition by proposition, until nothing is left, and then writing a new proposition, your very own, to throw in the teeth of despair. If Sonia has absolute faith in the Pope in Rome, if Karunanidhi and T R Baalu have absolute faith in the perversity of Periyarana, if Congressmen have faith in the cosmic greatness of Sonia Gandhi, then the Hindus have their own historic and inalienable right to put their total invincible faith in the grace of Lord Rama and the Rama-Setu Bridge created by him. The Hindus of India have their total, indivisible and invincible faith in their epics like the Ramayana and the Mahabharata. The gentle verses in them declare themselves for life; in a larger sense they are the body's rebellion against its attempted destruction by the Government of India. To retain simplicity of heart, to write verses for life against deathï¿½these gentle-sounding goals are not achieved without cost or without a sustaining faith.

Â Â Â Â As a staunch Hindu I have been greatly moved by what Czeslaw Milosz (1911Â 2004), a Polish poet, writer, academic, and winner of Nobel Prize in Literature in 1980 (a staunch Catholic) had to say about Religious Faith: ï¿½I am not afraid to say that a devout and God-fearing man is superior as a human specimen to a restless mocker who is glad to style himself an 'intellectual,' proud of his cleverness in using ideas which he claims as his own though he acquired them in a pawnshop in exchange for simplicity of heart . . . . The sacred exists and is stronger than all our rebellions.
Â (The writer is a retired IAS officer)
Â e-mail the writer at vsundaram@newstodaynet.com

09-17-2007, 11:51 PM

QUOTE(Mudy @ Sep 15 2007, 03:24 PM)When Ramadoss will change his name to Ravanadoss?
[right][snapback]73207[/snapback][/right]

Sorry even Ravandoss ain't appropriate for Ambumani Ramadoss. Ravan could technically be still a brahmin since he was son of sage Vishwrava who son of Sage Pulatysa (grandson of Brahma). And Ravan was a big time Shiv-bhakt.

ramana · 09-18-2007, 12:13 AM

Should this thread be merged with the Rama Setu thread? This thread has one third the posts 72 versus 220 and one tenth of the views 1052 versus 11500 compared to the Rama Setu thread.

09-18-2007, 12:19 AM

NGO withdraws petiton for stopping Ram Lila at Red FortQUOTENew Delhi, September 17: A petition seeking to stop the staging of Ram Lila in front of the Red Fort during the Dusshera festival has been withdrawn by an NGO after the Delhi High Court said the event would not harm the monument.

"The staging of Ram Lila or for that matter burning of the effigy of Ravana is not going to affect the Lal Quila," a division bench of Justices T S Thakur and Veena Birbal said, making it clear that such "frivolous" public interest litigations (PILs) would not be entertained.

The court, cautioning the NGO, said, "Either you withdraw your petition or we will dismiss the petition by imposing heavy cost on you.

"You will have to tolerate these things, related to the faith of many people, which are going on for last 50-odd years," the bench said in a recent order, prompting NGO Heritage and Cultural Forum (HACF) to withdraw its petition.

The NGO, on the basis of news reports, had filed the PIL, seeking a direction to the city government and civic authorities that they be asked not to allow the staging of Ram Lila during the Dusshera festival on the ground in front of the Red Fort.

It alleged that Ram Lila followed by buring of effigies of Ravana and others would cause irreparable damage to the monument.

Such activities were banned by authorities for over five years and the recent go-ahead, given by authorities to the Ram Lila committee, was in blatant violation of the apex court's directives which seek to conserve such national monuments.

The court, however, declined to allow the plea
FYI. This forum is supported by Ambika Soni/Congress

ramana · 09-18-2007, 12:31 AM

A few Pioneer op-eds. 17 Sept., 2007

QUOTEUnabridged edition of secular extremism

Swapan Dasgupta

There are two obvious ways in which last week's controversy over the Archaeological Survey of India's affidavit on the Ram Setu or Adam's Bridge can be viewed.

The secular-modernist perception is that it was perfectly legitimate for the ASI to question the historicity of Lord Ram and that the BJP's protests were governed entirely by electoral considerations. The Government, they believe, must steadfastly oppose every attempt to inject issues of faith into economic policy calculations. India's path into the global economic powerhouse, or so the argument goes, must not be cluttered with cultural and religious baggage. The Hindus, they say, have every right to worship elephant and monkey Gods and believe in the Ramayan, but covertly and behind closed doors. After all, they tell us, that Wall Street should not get to know that Hindus regard Hanuman as their answer to Isambard Brunel.

I found an example of this mindless cosmopolitanism in the Style pages of a business newspaper. According to a woman CEO, the publication projected as the personification of corporate power: "People see you as their daughter not as someone who's in charge, if you're wearing a salwar kameez" (or, presumably, a saree). Consequently, "her work wardrobe is filled with jackets, pencil skirts, formal shirts and few shirt dresses."

The philosophy behind this advocacy of a sartorial makeover for aspiring Indians is quite startling: Deny your inheritance and nationality. It is underpinned on a profound sense of inferiority. Equally reprehensible are the protestations of ignorance: "We didn't realise this would offend people."

Yet, we should be grateful to the ASI affidavit for bringing into the open the average Indian's exasperation with such misplaced manifestations of secular fundamentalism. For months on end, a small group of people has been agitating against the demolition of the Ram Setu on the ground that it is a monument to Lord Ram. Others have objected to the route of the Sethusamudram project on ecological and environmental reasons. Neither of these objections received a hearing in the court of secular modernisers for the simple reason that they were not couched in the warped idiom of secularism.

The Government's initial disregard of the protests was based on both political calculation and a mindset. It was presumed that the issue would not have a political impact because the BJP was presumed to be in disarray and, in any case, there is no such thing as a Hindu votebank. Political calculations apart, the affidavit was based on a mindset based on the assumption that Hindus, being by and large non-dogmatic and internally divided, can easily be trampled upon - a luxury that organised minorities don't accord to decision-makers. If artistic and academic freedom can be invoked to defend the portrayal of Hindu deities in very disagreeable ways, the commitment to a scientific temper could be cited as the reason for debunking the entire Ramayan tradition. LK Advani may well be right in describing this phenomenon as the logical corollary of pseudo-secularism: Sado-secularism.

The furore over the ASI affidavit has forced the secularists to take note of Hindu outrage. It has, for example, triggered an amusing one-upmanship battle between the handlers of Sonia Gandhi and Manmohan Singh over who first directed the relevant department to withdraw the affidavit. Would such damage control measures have been initiated had the UPA's captain and non-playing captain not realised that there may be a high electoral price to be paid for being so utterly insensitive to Hindu feelings?

If the Ram Setu controversy forces the custodians of the secular order to acknowledge the importance of even-handedness, it will be a giant step forward. For too long, rootless secularism has been allowed to run riot and trample over popular sensitivities. The demolition in Ayodhya and the series of riots were a consequence of this mishandling. The time has come to bend the stick the other way, locate fraternity in a cultural context and restore the Indian component of secularism. In short, it is time to realise that mocking Hindus involves paying a political price.



and

QUOTEHindu dharma humiliated
Sandhya Jain

Tulsidas's seminal rendition of the Ram story makes no mention of the Lakshman rekha in the episode dealing with Sita's abduction. The line surfaces only later, in distant Lanka, when Ravan's wife, Mandodri, advises him to give up his obstinacy and refrain from fighting the illustrious Raghus. She points out that Lakshman had drawn a protective line around Sita in the forest, which Ravan couldn't even cross! Sita could be abducted only after she was tricked into breaching it; the Lakshman rekha has since become the ethical standard of Hindu self-restraint, discipline, and sense of limit.

This moral dimension was shaken when a Union Government-approved affidavit claimed before the Supreme Court that there is no 'historic' or 'scientific' evidence of the existence of the maryada purushottam. This contemptuous attitude towards Hindu civilisation's greatest moral exemplar has caused shock all over the Hindu universe, from Jammu & Kashmir to Kanyakumari, to Trinidad & Tobago, Fiji, Guyana, Mauritius, Myanmar, Kampuchea, Indonesia, Bali, Malaysia, Nepal, Java, Philippines, Sri Lanka, Thailand; regions whose national culture has been shaped by the benign presence of Lord Ram.

Originally a dispute over a sand and coral formation uniting the Indian mainland with its island neighbour, Ram Setu has catapulted into a bridge of India's Hindu identity and nationhood, straddling centuries of collective sloth and amnesia. The Tamil Kings of Jaffna (13th to 16th centuries AD) once called themselves "Sethu Kavalar", protectors of Rameshwaram and the surrounding seas; south India principally reveres Lord Ram as Kodanda-Rama, deity with the bow.

The military career of this armed god, born to defeat the forces of darkness and tyranny and uphold dharma, was a saga of successive triumphs. He was invincible before the Rakshas and Asurs who were inimical to Vedic dharma. Even prior to the first century BC, Lord Krishna identified Lord Ram as the highest example of a warrior (Bhagavad Gita, X 31).

Significantly, of the multifarious roles of this divinity - ideal son, ideal brother, ideal husband, ideal human being - post-independence India has most valued the ideal king! This is precisely what is sought to be demeaned by the Archaeological Survey of India's audacious affidavit, duly vetted by the Union Law Ministry, declaring Lord Ram a non-historic figure. For Lord Ram was a king deeply concerned with his subjects' judgement of his way of living, and anxious to measure up to their expectations of him.

The backlash over the Ram Setu affidavit may yet teach modern India's foreign-born and native-secular rulers that in the Hindu civilisational ethos, rajdharma (duty of the king) means embracing and upholding the dharma of the people. There are no exemptions; Ashok's decision to make Buddhism the state religion and propagate it through state-appointed missionaries is perceived as an undesirable aberration. The quest for Ram rajya is the search for an ideal realm where people are happy, prosperous, well-behaved and contented; poverty and social ills are rare. India is thus the only country in the world where a ruler may not impose his dharma upon the people (convert them); he must honour the dharma of the people.

Even if Lord Ram was a figment of the collective Hindu imagination, he cast an enduring spell over subsequent epochs. The Harivamsa, a second-third century AD work on Lord Krishna, lauds Lord Ram's rule as the most righteous age on earth. The Vayu Puran, dated not later than fifth century AD, says Lord Ram had a long reign and in his kingdom the chants of the Rig, Yajur, and Sam Ved were heard ceaselessly and people gave and ate to their hearts content. Kalidas, himself a Shaiva, honed his poetic skills glorifying the Iksvakus and Lord Ram. The Gurjar-Pratihars who worsted the Arabs in the ninth century AD, trace their genealogy to Lakshman, brother of Lord Ram, as revealed by the Gwalior Prasasti of Mihir Bhoj, seventh king of the dynasty. Tukaram extolled Shivaji's reign as Ram rajya in which ruler and subjects were all equal and there was all-round welfare.

Interestingly, the first tsunami of 2004 came soon after the arrest of the Kanchi Shankaracharya on specious grounds of conspiracy to murder. The second warning, when the ocean literally growled and tremors measured eight on the Richter scale, came within hours of the Centre declaring there was no historic evidence of Lord Ram and the Setu was a mere sandbank.

Retreat was equally swift. With mid-term election looming threateningly on the horizon, the official dogma reinvented itself: Certainly there is Lord Ram. Till recently a mythological hero, the god metamorphosed into "an integral part of Hindu faith" whose existence can never be doubted. In the three months reprieve sought to 'study' the feasibility of the canal, there may finally be a Ram Setu as well. Popular belief (astha) is nothing; but popular vote surely counts!

The tsunami warning is not a secular matter of environmental degradation. For Hindus, also at stake is our panch-tatva (debt) to the panch-tatva that make the universe: Earth, water, fire, air, ether, and all creatures within. Contrary to the Western world-view, man alone is not the measure of all things, and we have no right to desecrate nature. The Gulf of Mannar is an indivisible water body which impacts the coasts of India and Sri Lanka. Any dredging here can trigger the fault-lines and the heat-flow zone, causing incalculable damage to the coast and aquatic resources. Yet, tsunami effects and tsunami protection measures were not included in the Sethusamundram Shipping Channel Project report, though this affects coastline security. Hopefully, this lacuna will be addressed in the three month review period.

At stake is a rich and endangered marine life and the sensitive ecosystem in the Palk Bay and Gulf of Mannar, including Dugong sea turtles, dolphins and sea horses that thrive in the coral reefs. Under UNESCO's Man and Biosphere Programme, the Gulf of Mannar environs were notified as a Marine Biosphere Reserve by the Government of India. The 10,500 sq km area, with 21 islands with continuous stretches of coral reef, is home to over 3,600 rare species of flora and fauna. Five coastal districts depend upon this marine resource.

The ASI affidavit was a shameful attempt to humiliate Hindu dharma by belittling a defining feature of Hindu tradition. Unsurprisingly, this flagrant violation of the Lakshman rekha roused the languorous Hindu elephant to protest. Let it now trumpet the regime's fall.

09-18-2007, 01:25 AM

Lord Ram as Harry Potter
S Gurumurthy

ASI needs stones to read history and historians need bones to understand it. Neither are there any stones left by Lord Ram, nor do his bones exist. Ironically, certain sections of the UPA were more than willing to buy this 'secular logic' QUOTEMs Sonia Gandhi did not even have to use her pen to do it. The UPA's style of ruling India is self-evident. When the Government does unpopular things, whether it is petrol price hike or affidavit on Lord Ram, Mr Manmohan Singh and company will take the hit. But whenever it does anything popular, like petrol price cut or employment guarantee announcement, or the withdrawal of the affidavit on Lord Ram, Ms Gandhi will take the credit. Now she gets the acclaim for restoring Lord Ram to history from mythology.

It is new experience for Lord Ram. He was exiled by his father, Dasaratha, under the pressure of his aunt, Kaikeyi, for years. But, now, when Lord Ram was declared as non-est by Mr TR Balu, Ms Gandhi overruled him and recovered Lord Ram in just two days. So, Kaikeyi's wrong to Lord Ram has been atoned by Ms Gandhi, thousands of years later.Â
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--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' />

09-18-2007, 03:02 AM

QUOTETogadia launches nationwide agitation to protect 'Ram Sethu'
Thrissur, Sep 17 : Viswa Hindu Parishad (VHP) Secretary-General Praveen Togadia today launched a nationwide agitation to protect the historic 'Ram Sethu' bridge at Guruvayoor near here.

Speaking to newspersons here, Mr Togadia said Prime Minister Manmohan Singh should apologise to the nation for hurting the sentiments of Hindus on this issue.

Mr Togadia said ''All Hindu believers can enter the temple, but non-believers should be barred entry.'' The VHP leader also offered prayers at the Guruvayoor Krishna Temple here.

09-18-2007, 03:23 AM

QUOTEBJP asks Govt to revoke decision on charging rent for Ram LilaÂ 
Pioneer.com
PTI | New Delhi
The Opposition BJP on Monday asked the Government to revoke the decision to impose a rent for organising Ram Lila celebrations at the historic Red Fort, saying it went against the norms.
Â
In a letter to Union Culture Minister Ambika Soni, senior BJP leader VK Malhotra said he was surprised at the decision of the Archaelogical Survey of India to impose a Rs 50,000 security deposit and a daily rent of Rs 25,000 for organising the celebrations.

"The Mughal rulers used to give away money for the same in the past and the present move by the Government has irked the feelings of Ram bakhts," he said.

BJP's deputy leader in Lok Sabha Malhotra asked the Minister to ensure that the organisers are provided with power and water and withdraw the decision to impose rent.

09-18-2007, 05:01 AM

A retrograde step, says Brinda Karat
QUOTEJAIPUR: Communist Party of India (Marxist) leader Brinda Karat has termed the UPA governmentâs decision to withdraw the affidavit in the Supreme Court on the Ramar Sethu issue âan act of succumbing to pressure from the communal forces.â

Shambhu · 09-18-2007, 07:59 AM

Brindaben,

Surely you meant "succumbing to common sense", naa?

Hota hai..

Bodhi · (This post was last modified: 09-18-2007, 10:26 AM by Bodhi.)

Rama Setu and Sri Krishna - II : Sri Krishna fulfills Hanuman's Promise to Govardhana 

http://ramasetu.blogspot.com/2007/09/rama-...i-hanumans.html

... spirit of place was there, more than it was for me at Paphos in Cyprus, where Venus was said to have issued out of sea. In the time of Tacitus (in the first century) the magic of the - now - unremarkable little cove would have been preserved by the temples and the rites described in the Histories, with the mystery underlined by the form in which Venus was worshipped at Paphos - a rock cone sliced off at the top...

...Too late, then, I remembered with a pang a story I had heard about when I was a child, and later read another version of (in Charles Kingley's 'At Last', 1871). Every now and then, according to this story, groups of aboriginal Indians in canoes came across the gulf from the continent (where remnants of the tribes still existed), walked through certain places in the woods in the southern hills, performed certain rites, or made offerings, and then, with certain fruit they had gathered, went back home across the gulf...This was all that I heard...I wasn't of age to want to ask more...story now is somethig in a dream.

...Perhaps it is this absence of the sense of sacredness - which is more than the idea of the "environment" - that is the curse of the New World... and perhaps it is this sense of sacredness - rather than the history and the past - that we travel to the Old World to discover...

from "Beyond Belief" by V.S. Naipaul

Sense of sacredness is the true fragrance of faith, and the fragrance of all the ancient religions all over the world. From Mount Fiji in Japan to Mount Olympus in Greece, and from Uluru peak in Australia to Cuzco in Peru, ancient wisdom has invested earth with the same sense of sacredness. The sacredness is that essense, which transcends both - the history and the myth.

One such place, that blesses the millions of people every year with that same tenderness of sacred, is the beautiful hill of Govardhana, located in the Braja mandala. It is one of the most venerated site of Hindus since the times immemorial.

<img src='http://bp1.blogger.com/_MAAO1bGRfec/Ru7jnM8pG8I/AAAAAAAAAIQ/eTlkAEd4BYU/s200/kamyavan_Hill.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />

In Sanskrit, 'vardhana' means increasing, and 'go' means cow as well as light, sat, bliss. The mount of Govardhana - indeed, as is the name, nourishes and rejuvenates the bliss of the devotees. Such is the ancient tradition that the personality of Govardhana, also known as giriraja - king of mountains - blesses the devotees by increasing their devotion to the Supreme Lord. By circumambulating around the foothills of Govardhana, the process known as Pancha-Koshi parikrama, it is said that the senses and the mind of the pilgrim attain purifrication, they become worthy of divine love and become much more inclined towards Lord.

The traditions of Govardhana are very enchanting too. Garg Samhita describes one of the traditions connected with the mountain. In it, Bheeshma once explains to King Pandu, that in the island of Salmali once lived mountain Dronacal who had a son named Govardhana. Once sage Pulastya who lived near Kashi, visited Salmali, and seeing Govardhana, realized its potential of being liberating to the people. He desired to move the mountain to the main lands near Kashi. Dronachal happily agreed and asked his son - Govardhana, to accompany the sage. But Govardhan did not really want to move away from parents. So he played a trick. He asked the sage that he would come along only on one condition. Sage must carry him, not put him down anywhere on the way otherwise Govardhana would get fixed at that place itself. Sage agreed and they started towards Kashi. While passing through Vraja, Govardhana liked that place, and did his trick. He caused Sage Pulatsya to attend to the call of nature and the Sage had to put him down in order to do so.
This way Govardhana reached his new location and did not have to move further. However Sage Pulatsya got very angry at this, and cursed him that he would sink into the earth by the height of one mustard-seed per day. It is said that by this curse, Govardhan is fast shrinking, and before the second pada of kaliyuga, that is in another 10,000 years, would completely disappear.

There is yet another tradition that continues from the above, and which connects us to our topic of Sri Rama Setu.

It is said that the above mentioned event happened in Satyayuga, after which many years passed and came Tretayuga. Sri Mahavishnu appeared in his seventh Avatara as Sri Rama in this yuga. We all know how Sri Rama desired to construct a causeway between mainland India and island of Lanka so that His army could cross over to destroy the demon Ravana and rescue His noble wife Sita. For this cause, His architect Nala dispatched the most mighty of the vanaras in all directions to fetch the large stones and mounts.

In this context, the tradition so goes, that Sri Hanuman Ji, arrived at the Giriraja Govardhana and requested him to allow to be moved to the ocean and become part of the Setu being constructed. Hearing this, Giriraja readily and happily agreed and was very delighted that he would be of some service to Sri Rama, the all pervading. But while Govardhana, could begin to move, the news arrived that the construction was almost done and such a large mountain was not needed.

This made Govardhana very disappointed and he lamented to Hanumana that he could not be of any service to the Lord. Hanumana, the best of all devotees Himself, was very moved by his sorrow. He promised him to convey his prayers to Sri Rama, and to request Him from his own side for Giriraja.

Hearing the tale about Giriraja Govardhana, and Hanuman's own pleadings, Sri Ram was moved. He told Hanuman that after several thousands of years, in dwaapara, He would come back to fulfill all the desires of his devotees. In that era, he would also fulfill the desires of Giriraja Govardhana, and lift him with affection, by His own hands.

So it happened, and we know the rest of the tradition all too well.

Came Dwaaparayuga, when Lord Sri Krishna was spending his childhood in Vraja. He noticed that the people of Vraja were too much involved in the performance of sacrifices, and Indra was the dominant demigod they worshiped. Indra himself too had become highly egoistic by all the offerings people made. Krishna and his elder brother Balarama instigated the people to stop worshipping Indra, and instead worship Govardhana who nourished them and their cows. He successfully convinced the people in stopping the sacrificial offerings to Indra.

This angered Indra, who, to teach a lesson to the people of Vrindavana, sent mighty clouds like Saavartaka to Vrindavana, ordering them to rain very heavily and cause enourmous destruction. Ordered by Indra, all the dangerous clouds appeared above Vrindavana and began to pour water incessantly, with all their strength and power. There was constant lightning and thunder, blowing of severe wind and incessant rains. The rainfall seemed to fall like piercing sharp arrows of Indra. By pouring water as thick as pillars, without cessation, the clouds gradually filled all the lands in Vrindavana with water. Every living creature began to tremble from the severe cold. Unable to find any other source of deliverance, they all approached Govinda to take shelter at His lotus feet. The cows especially, being much aggrieved from the heavy rain, bowed down their heads, and taking their calves underneath their bodies, they approached Sri Krishna to take shelter of His lotus feet.

Little did Indra know about Sri Krishna and his powers. Sri Krishna assembled all the community and addressed them. He assured them that if they all tried together, they can lift the govardhana like an umbrella and protect themselves. Saying like this, Sri krishna plucked the mountain of Govardhana like a child might a mushroom. Gopis supported it with their sticks, also thinking they have a role in it. The tradition has it that Govardhan protected them like an umbrella for a week, and eventually Indra conceded his defeat and apologized to Sri Krishna and the people of Vrindavana, and was happily pardoned.

This way Sri Krishna fulfilled the desire of his devotee Govardhana, kept the words of another devotee Hanumanji, protected the dwellers of Vrindavana the other devotees, and purified the ego of yet another - Indra.

After all, He himself declares in Sri Bhagavad Gita:

ananyaschintayanta mam ye janah paryupasate
tesham nityabhiyuktanam yogakshemam vahamyaham (BG 9/22)

{For those, who are completely devoted to Me, see nothing beyond Me, I take upon Myself to always provide them with that which they lack, and protect that which they already have.}

To this day, Sri Govardhan ji, just like Sri Rama Setu, is one such sacred site that nourishes the devotion of millions of devotees every year. The saga of Sri Krishna lifting Govardhana and humbling demigod Indra is permanentally etched upon the conscience of the Hindu Civilization, just like the saga of Sri Rama constructing the Setu across the ocean and humbling another demigod Varuna.

The earlier part: Rama Setu and Sri Krishna - I : Kamyavana Setu Bandha Kunda

<img src='http://bp0.blogger.com/_MAAO1bGRfec/Ru7lG88pG-I/AAAAAAAAAIg/U2afkfszXlE/s400/govardhana_giridhari_belur_temple.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
(Giridhari Govind - sculpture on the walls of Belur Temple)

<img src='http://bp2.blogger.com/_MAAO1bGRfec/Ru7j_c8pG9I/AAAAAAAAAIY/ByRv2wpTk18/s320/govardhan_giri_dhari.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
(Tanjavur painting of Krishna lifting Govardhana)

09-18-2007, 01:20 PM

QUOTE(Bodhi @ Sep 18 2007, 09:47 AM)Rama Setu and Sri Krishna - II : Sri Krishna fulfills Hanuman's Promise to Govardhana 

Very interesting, useful piece of information. I'm sure the blog will raise awareness among younger generations about the history of the sanctity of many places in India, which otherwise would have been ignored or dismissed, given the tendency for the current crop of Indian historians (under the direction of the Congress, DMK, Marxist and other anti-hindu political parties) to rewrite the Indian history to advance their own political agenda.

Husky · (This post was last modified: 09-19-2007, 04:00 PM by Husky.)

QUOTE(Viren @ Sep 17 2007, 11:51 PM)And Ravan was a big time Shiv-bhakt.[right][snapback]73265[/snapback][/right]
I used to be quite impressed by that when I was little. But it says nothing for him when he kidnapped Sita.
Shiva apparently wasn't much moved by Ravana's hypocritical affections either: Ravana can't even lift Shiva's bow. (If Shiva had been on his side, wouldn't Ravana have been able to do it?) But Rama lifts and strings the bow without any effort and gets to marry Sita. Shiva's favourite is obvious.
And according to Hanuman Chalisa and other Hindu traditions, Shiva incarnated as Hanuman to help Rama to defeat Ravana. Hanuman is known for being a very very great Bhakta of Rama. And then again, Rama is a great devotee of Shiva (Rameshwara = Rama + Ishwara = literally Lord of Rama/Rama's Lord/Rama's Shiva).

One of the things I understood from this (and only in theory) when I was younger, is that trying to be a good person is part of the equation. (That is, having great affection for the Gods all while treating others poorly isn't going to make one a favourite.)

Hanuman strongly disapproves of Ravana's kidnapping of Sita - calls Ravana wicked for it. Shiva's disapproval:
http://www.dlshq.org/religions/hanuman.htm
QUOTERavana said, "O mischievous monkey, what will you say in your defence? I will put you to death." Hanuman laughed and said, "O wicked Ravana, give back Sita to Lord Rama and ask his pardon; otherwise you will be ruined and the whole of Lanka will be destroyed."

QUOTE(Viren @ Sep 17 2007, 11:51 PM)<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mudy @ Sep 15 2007, 03:24 PM)When Ramadoss will change his name to Ravanadoss?
[right][snapback]73207[/snapback][/right]Sorry even Ravandoss ain't appropriate for Ambumani Ramadoss. Ravan could technically be still a brahmin since he was son of sage Vishwrava who son of Sage Pulatysa (grandson of Brahma).[right][snapback]73265[/snapback][/right]</div>I suppose technically he was a brahmin because of having had Brahmana ancestors in that life. But he was not a Brahmana, despite knowing the Vedas and the like.
He was not even a Dharmic individual. Except for being a Shiva Bhakta, he had done practically everything else wrong: kidnapped a woman against her will (and she was another's wife), cruelty to animals (cut off Jataayu's wings, thus killing Rama's feathered friend; and he had Hanuman's tail set on fire), tried to attack Bodhavati (Lakshmi's incarnation) and many another thing.

As he was a Rakshasa, my using the term 'inhumane' for his behaviour would perhaps end up creating a loophole... But the point is he might have tried to be a good individual. He failed to manage even that. Knowledge (for instance, merely knowing the Vedas), performing all the necessary rites correctly at the right time, and other such stuff is no substitute for trying. And that's why many a person comes off way better than Ravana whilst he is known as a villain. Hiding behind his lineage didn't save him.

QUOTESorry even Ravandoss ain't appropriate for Ambumani Ramadoss.I agree. Ambumani is in an entirely different league, and connecting him with Ravana would be complimenting Ambumani.
Ravana was a villain but he was killed (and meant to be killed) by Rama - by all means his instant Moksha is a great reward which most can't boast of. But there's that other Hindu tradition to explain that.

And now for some cool stuff:
(1) Beautiful picture of Rama hugging his devoted Hanuman <!--emo& Smile

--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' />
http://www.hanumanchalisa.org/telugu/ima...uman1p.jpg <- If clicking on this link (or right-clicking on it and choosing "open in new window") doesn't work, copy the link and manually open a new separate browser window and paste the link into it. Works for me that way.
Hugs are also energising, as Bhima once found out when he hugged his brother Hanuman. No matter how old you are, these are ever-inspiring events.

(2) This is cute. Am impressed, they got the Kireetam (crown) looking right:
http://www.monkeyanvil.com/index.php?offse...ategories_id=10

(3) And where was this stuff way back when I was a colouring-fanatic:
http://littleganeshas.wordpress.com/2007/0...image-to-color/
"Shri Hanuman - an image to color". More colouring links on the lower right.
Woohoo, takes one back to kindergarten days. Go on, grab your crayons. You know you want to.

Husky · (This post was last modified: 09-19-2007, 03:32 PM by Husky.)

Separate from last post.
QUOTE(Viren @ Sep 17 2007, 07:39 PM)<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE
from: Dr Kalayanraman's site
[...]
In the Ramapurva Tapaneeya Upanishad, the various meanings of the word Rama are explained as follows: "Raajate vaa maheem sthitah san iti Raamah" that is, he who is on the earth and fulfills the deires of his devotees and is hailed as a king, is Rama. In other words, when Sacchidanand or Mahavishnu or Shrihari incarnated in the home of Dasharatha in the family of Raghu, He was named Rama. At whose hands, Rakshasas are destroyed, He is Rama. Or He who renders the Rakshasas powerless in His human form, is Rama. By his ideal behaviour, He guides kings in the way of Dharma. The utterance of His name results in the attainment of the way of Jnana. He grants Vairagya when He is meditated upon. He grants prosperity when his image is worshipped. For these reasons did His name become famous on the earth as Rama. The Vedas say that in fact yogis dwell (Sanskrit: Ram-) in the endless, ever-joyous, self-absorbed Brahma state, and so Parabrahma Universal Soul (Paramatma) is itself described as the Rama state. Thus, although Brahma is self-absorbed, non-dual, undivided and devoid of the five-elemental body, it manifests as a conscious body in order to fulfil the Bhaktas' desires. For love of the Bhaktas, the Nirakar (formless) Brahma assumes Narakaar (human form). [right][snapback]73257[/snapback][/right]</div>Something somewhat related to this.
(Don't be upset if I get the following wrong, I only hear this stuff when the shloka is played, and the translation is from long ago when my dad explained it to me. So in the meantime I could have got it waaaay wrong - please consult someone else.)

Parvati asks her husband Shiva how to worship Mahavishnu. In the Vishnu Sahasranamam, he tells her the whole Sahasranamam. Near the end of it, Parvati asks Shiva that since it is so long, whether there is a shorter way to express all that is in it. (Of course Parvati internally knows all this - Mahavishnu is her own brother. But with this, it is set down for the benefit of all: all Devas, Asuras, all creatures.)

And so, close to the end of the Sahasranamam you can hear Shiva answering her -
QUOTE"Sri RAma RAma RAmeti, Rame RAme Manorame"(The bit before the comma) is the essence, Shiva tells Parvati: "Sri Rama Rama Rama" is all you need. With it you have covered the whole of the Vishnu Sahasranamam. (But of course, saying the whole of it is also very good.)

(As for the bit after the comma in the blockquote above, it is Shiva talking to Parvati: he is addressing her fondly, calling her Rame, RAme, and Manorame. It's like darling, dear, dearest. Also I think Rame RAme are Parvati's names just like Krishni is her name also - her being Vishnu's sister and all. Meanwhile Lakshmi is called RamA, as wife of RAma.)

CORRECTED in the above: I initially had the bold bit as "Sri Rama Rama", it's supposed to be "Sri Rama Rama Rama" because the Rameti is "Rama + iti". *sorry* Though I don't think the exact number here matters: saying it a million times is even better than saying it three times, for instance <!--emo& Smile

--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' />

09-18-2007, 07:19 PM

Huskyji:
QUOTEShiva tells Parvati: "Sri Rama Rama" is all you need.
I've heard the same. I know households and sunday schools where same's taught to toddler kids who can't recite shlokas.

On Ravan's virtues/vices, agree this not the thread. The reference was in regards to the Kurnanidhi/Ambumani and DMK politics.

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