<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->My point was just in response to the connection between rathores and rashtrakutas.
This point is still debated. Some consider rathores scions of Jaychand of Kannauj and others consider them of rashtrakuta descent. I am still researching this point and have not reached any conclusion.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, people have mentioned the etymological difficulty of deriving rAThauD from Skt rAShTrakUTa. However, there are records which describe the latter as rAShTrayodha. Hence, we have rAShTrakUTa = rAShTrayodha>rAThauD which follows a Middle Indo-Aryan formation.
However, the saMskrit vamsha kAvya from Bagalana which was under Rathod rulers before passing to the moslems clearly mentions the Gahadvalas and also the western Marwar branch as rAShTrakUTa mahAvaMsha. The ruler Pratap Singh of Bagalana is a much forgotten Hindu hero who defeated Akbar after a 7 year battle, whose history deserves a narration.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Yes, people have mentioned the etymological difficulty of deriving rAThauD from Skt rAShTrakUTa. However, there are records which describe the latter as rAShTrayodha. Hence, we have rAShTrakUTa = rAShTrayodha>rAThauD which follows a Middle Indo-Aryan formation.
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Actually, RAThoD/RAThauD is rather derived from rAShTrakUTa:
rAShTrakUTa > Initial MIA forms rATThakUDa, rAThakUDa > Advanced MIA forms rATha-UDa=rAThauDa > modern NIA forms rAThauD>rAThoD (loss of final -a)
The dental -dh- in -yodha will immediately pose difficulties when:
1. becoming a retroflex (-dh- > -Dh-)
2. then losing its aspirate (-Dh- > -D-)
without obvious reasons
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->rAShTrakUTa > Initial MIA forms rATThakUDa, rAThakUDa > Advanced MIA forms rATha-UDa=rAThauDa > modern NIA forms rAThauD>rAThoD (loss of final -a)
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This traditional etymology is probably correct. But a certain Chattopadyay of JNU objected to it saying it was unlikely. But your explanation seems convincing enough to me. I wonder if Digvijay Singh has some other objection?
B.t.w. is there any intimate connection of RAShTrakUTas with Agastya symbolism? And does this connection has anything to do with KUTa = waterjar, N. of Agastya, L.; also named as KUTa-ja "born in a pitcher", N. of the sage Agastya (cf. Nir. v, 13 and 14)
Did these RAShTrakUTas consider themselves as royal KUTas (KarmadhAraya SamAsa)?
The Reddies somehow claim to have a connection with RAShTrakUTas, but also with Agastya symbolism:
Vema Reddy seems to have declared: " I restored all the agraharas of Brahmins, which had been taken away by the evil Moslem kings". "I am indeed an Agastya to the ocean which was made of the Moslem".
The capital of Vidarbha is KuNDinapura. Agastya was married to Lopamudra, daughter of king Vidarbha, a Yaduvamshi.
If the Paramaras, with the Gotra VasiShTha, are indeed related to the RAShTrakUTas, they may have been KuNDinas (KauNDinya VasiShThas- also related to a waterjar: kuNDa = kUTa = kumbha).
MAnya in MAnyakheta gives a reflection of MAnya = Agastya MaitrAvaruNi.
Does this make sense?
KuNDa
n. [as m. L.], a bowlshaped vessel, basin, bowl, pitcher, pot, water-pot KâtyShr. MBh. &c.; a vessel for coals R. v, 10, 16 &c.;
a round hole in the ground (for receiving and preserving water or fire, cf. agni-kuNDa), pit, well, spring or basin of water (especially consecrated to some holy purpose or person) MBh. R. &
This hints at Paramaras being KuNDIns, and being the original (and only?) Agni-KuNDins > Agni-(KuNDa) Kula warriors.
<!--QuoteBegin-ishwa+Jul 23 2007, 02:30 AM-->QUOTE(ishwa @ Jul 23 2007, 02:30 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Yes, people have mentioned the etymological difficulty of deriving rAThauD from Skt rAShTrakUTa. However, there are records which describe the latter as rAShTrayodha. Hence, we have rAShTrakUTa = rAShTrayodha>rAThauD which follows a Middle Indo-Aryan formation.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, RAThoD/RAThauD is rather derived from rAShTrakUTa:
rAShTrakUTa > Initial MIA forms rATThakUDa, rAThakUDa > Advanced MIA forms rATha-UDa=rAThauDa > modern NIA forms rAThauD>rAThoD (loss of final -a)
The dental -dh- in -yodha will immediately pose difficulties when:
1. becoming a retroflex (-dh- > -Dh-)
2. then losing its aspirate (-Dh- > -D-)
without obvious reasons
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Some mention that rasktrakuta itself was a title and not a family name. Is that true? For example we do not find anyone by the name rasthrakuta today.
-Digvijay
<!--QuoteBegin-digvijay+Jul 24 2007, 12:32 AM-->QUOTE(digvijay @ Jul 24 2007, 12:32 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Some mention that rasktrakuta itself was a title and not a family name. Is that true? For example we do not find anyone by the name rasthrakuta today.
-Digvijay
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It may have been originally a title, afterwards becoming the name of some particular families.
In El. 5. p. 134, Vishnuvardhana issues the landgrant as a proclamation to âall the assembled kutumbins headed by the Rashtrakutasâ.
In the Brahmanapalli grant of Karkaraja Suvarnavarsha of 821 A.D. (EL22, 77-85), we have the names of officers like Rashtrapati, Vishayapati, Gramakuta, niyuktaka, etc.
A Gramakuta (Gramani) must be different from a Rashtrakuta.
One particular family may have used the waterjar symbolism of its own tradition together with the title?
<!--QuoteBegin-ishwa+Jul 24 2007, 03:20 AM-->QUOTE(ishwa @ Jul 24 2007, 03:20 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-digvijay+Jul 24 2007, 12:32 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(digvijay @ Jul 24 2007, 12:32 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Some mention that rasktrakuta itself was a title and not a family name. Is that true? For example we do not find anyone by the name rasthrakuta today.
-Digvijay
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It may have been originally a title, afterwards becoming the name of some particular families.
In El. 5. p. 134, Vishnuvardhana issues the landgrant as a proclamation to âall the assembled kutumbins headed by the Rashtrakutasâ.
In the Brahmanapalli grant of Karkaraja Suvarnavarsha of 821 A.D. (EL22, 77-85), we have the names of officers like Rashtrapati, Vishayapati, Gramakuta, niyuktaka, etc.
A Gramakuta (Gramani) must be different from a Rashtrakuta.
One particular family may have used the waterjar symbolism of its own tradition together with the title?
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What does El refer to. Pls can you give the transalated text of the Brahmanapalli grant. Is there any link where these inscriptions can be accessed.
Rgds
From Deccan Chronicle, 26 July 2007
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Film highlights Kakatiya rule
Â
Anguished over the pathetic state of Kakatiya-period monuments and other important places in and around Warangal, two friends have joined to create an exhaustive documentary, Mana Kakatiyulu. <b>The friends, Ambati Srinivasa Raju, a doctor and his friend S. Sadanandam, a professional cameraman, have documented the achievements of 17 rulers of the famous Kakatiya dynasty.</b>
"As a citizen of this historic city of Kakatiyas, I always felt it was shameful to find the monuments in a pathetic condition," explains script writer Srinivasa Raju. In order to capture the glory of the monuments before they get further degraded, they have travelled extensively to all parts of the district.
<b>"This is a small effort to capture the grandeur of Kakatiya architectural marvels like Warangal Fort, Thousand Pillars Temple and Ramappa Temple,"</b> added Mr Srinivasa Raju, who plans to send his documentary to international festivals
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Can someone contact them and see how it can be distributed in US?
I picked the following from
http://manollasa.blogspot.com/2006/07/maha...ore-musing.html
I know this is the blogspot of one of the forum members (I dont know who). The change in language and its development over a period of time is very interesting. I would request the learned forum members to actually give the examples of these languages, in the sense mention some sentences in these languages (and also their translations) and how it evolved for the benefit of avid followers (like myself) who cannot follow these languages but are very interested in them. For e.g. how the Maharashtri Prakrit of 2nd century had evolved into Mahratti of the 12th century when Dnyaneshwar mentioned "Majhi Mahratichi Bolu Kavtike, Pari Amritatehi Jinke....". I understand Marathi somewhat and I can understand the meaning of the above words. I thought of starting another thread, but then decided that this is probably the right thread for it discusses medieval history as language development is very much linked to the political and social history of the times and cannot be easily separated from it. Also the great changes in languages happened in the 3rd to 11th century. When we came out in the 11th century we had Kannada and Telugu with flourishing literature, Marathi and Malayalam evolving into their final shapes. So its more apt to discuss this in medieval history.
From the blogsite
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->"Obivously, Indo-Aryan and Dravidian have been at the center of my linguistic interests because they are the very basis of my cultural and genetic heritage. During my peregrinations in the peninsula I made some observations, and read a work of KM Munshi that the muni brought to my attention, which resulted in a flash. This concerns the relationship between Maharatti the Indo-Aryan language of the northern peninsula and the Aryanized Dravidian language Kannada that is a bit further south. The first great empire of this region was the Andhra empire of the shatavAhana that held sway within the interval 2ooBCE-200 CE. The principal language of this empire was a middle Indo-Aryan dialect, a prakR^it, mahArAShTri prakR^it that was used fairly extensively as a commercial, official and literary language. This contention is most effectively confirmed by the literary work in this language, sattasai of the andhra king hAla. We see its extensive effects in the Aryanization of the peninsula, including the older IA superstrate on Tamil, Kannada and Telugu. Its use an official language probably contributed to its use in classical Sanskrit dramatics as the epitome of a barbarous prakR^it spoken by the lower sections of society. For example, note its use as the language of the crude characters in the play AgamaDambara, much later in time, by the Kashimirian brAhmin jayanta bhaTTa. This prakR^it clear shares some synapomorphies with modern Maharatti, suggesting that it indeed directly contributed as an ancestor of the local IA language of modern times.
However, fast forward in time and you find that the successors of the shatavAhana rulers, in the region the mighty rAShTrakUTas (rAthoD-s of later IA) and the more regional yAdavas extensively use kannaDa in their inscriptions (other than the official classical Sanskrit). We find much more limited use of Maharatti phrases and sentences, especially in the later of these inscriptions, and suggests the survival of the descendent of the preceding mahArAShTri prakR^it apparently over-shadowed by Dravidian Kannada. Then, we have Munshi's demonstration of the influence of Kannada on Gujarati, which is consistent with a far more northern boundary for Kannada in the historical period. The earliest Maharatti inscriptions are interestingly seen in Sravana-Belgola, which is now an entirely Kannada region. Then we have the Islamic invasion destroying the old Hindu kingdoms of the region. As the curtain lifts and the Maharatta warriors are beginning to appear as major power players, Maharatti is rampant and soon influence the whole of India with the rise of the Maharatta empire (the last great Hindu empire). As Maharatti evolved it showed a linguistic tendency, pronounced in Tamil, and seen to a limited extent in Kannada and Telugu-- the caste-specific dialect (a phenomenon extensively researched by mAtAshrI in her PhD days). The brahmins speak a dialect extensively influenced by a classical Sanskrit vocabulary, while the middle castes adopt several technical NIA or MIA terms with only religious Sanskrit vocabulary and the tribals and lower castes an un-sanskritized NIA dialect. Amongst some branches of the smArta brahmins settled in the Tamil country in the latest period the dialect is a hybrid of sanskrit and tamil, deploying a Sanskrit vocabulary atop a basic dravidian structural template. This situation is very parallel to the brahmin nAstIkas of the bauddha cult, composing the neo-scriptures in a highly sanskritized MIA dialect. Traditionally these were termed maNi-praAvalas.
These observations of the fluctuations of Aryanized Dravidian and IA, as well as caste specific dialect formation suggests that the spread of IA in the peninsula was a complex phenomenon, poorly understood by most white Indologists (other than Masica).
# posted by agnikula : 11:32 PM "<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
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Posting a link which has a lot of articles on Indian History, Muslim barbarity, Vedic history of Kaaba, lots more..
http://www.hinduunity.org/articles/bharath...istorymain.html
<!--QuoteBegin-Hauma Hamiddha+Jul 21 2007, 08:55 PM-->QUOTE(Hauma Hamiddha @ Jul 21 2007, 08:55 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->The first is largely a semantic issue as far as I can see. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Hauma Hamiddha+-->QUOTE(Hauma Hamiddha)<!--QuoteEBegin-->After the whirlwind of Islam under the dreadful Alla-ad-din Khalji had blown through India and <b>flattened the Hindus</b><!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This was your first post on this topic and impression I got from it that hindus were routed very badly and ceased all resistance. This is why I posted the excerpt from Kulke's book. See Khilji is considered by Muslims and indologists as a general who never lost and one who "ruled" over most of India! We know for sure this is wrong. So what made you say it?
<!--QuoteBegin-Hauma Hamiddha+-->QUOTE(Hauma Hamiddha)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Further as for the Rajputs you yourself describe at length that due to Khalji's attacks Hammir Deva ChahamAna was killed, and also the occupation of Chittor (even it was reconquered).
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes but rajputs in the fort perished to the last human and the country side was in there hand. So clearly rajputs were not flattened.
<!--QuoteBegin-Haum Hamiddha+-->QUOTE(Haum Hamiddha)<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Digvijay+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Digvijay)<!--QuoteEBegin--> I am negating following two statements:
.... The fight backs by Hindus were constant and started as soon as they lost any war.
Secondly Chittor was retaken much before the time of Kumbha. Rajputs were raiding places as far as banaras to free it from the mllechas.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Digvijay, this what I meant -- see in your eagerness to negate and push your point you seem to gloss over what was originally written. I am sure you will appreciate that any one who has had read school level history in India or even just read ACK comics will know that Chittor was reconquered by the Sisodias before Kumbha and the story of Maladeva and Vir Hammir defeating Mahmud Khalji etc. If you notice the original statement I am not saying that *Kumbha reconquered Chittor*.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is what you wrote:
<!--QuoteBegin-Hauma Hamiddha+-->QUOTE(Hauma Hamiddha)<!--QuoteEBegin-->In the North, in the 1400s a significant figure in rolling back the horrors of Islam was the great Rana Kumbha of Mewar.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I mentioned the chittor recounquering to show that Islams' horrors in Mewar were rolled back many decades before the birth of Kumbha.
-Digvijay
Google Book on Oreintal Biographical Dictionary of Medieval India
Warning long pdf file. Download and read.
<!--QuoteBegin-ramana+Aug 14 2007, 11:42 PM-->QUOTE(ramana @ Aug 14 2007, 11:42 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Google Book on Oreintal Biographical Dictionary of Medieval India
Warning long pdf file. Download and read.
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How do you download this, there is no download option available. Is this a free book??
See the top right hand corner with the download link?
<!--QuoteBegin-ramana+Aug 15 2007, 12:59 AM-->QUOTE(ramana @ Aug 15 2007, 12:59 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin--> Feroz Shah Tughlaq's autobiography
From kartiksri's link.
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It actually covers the regin of not just Firuz Tughlaq but that of eight Sultans before him from Balban onwards. It starts where the Minhaj-us-Siraj ends, Barani accepts as much saying that there is no point covering a period which has already been previously covered. Thus the Tarikh-i-Firuz Shahi covers the later part of the Slave dynasty, the entire Khiji period and the reigns of the first Tughlak Sultans viz Ghiyasuddin, Muhammad ibn and Firuz. In case of Firuz it only covers the first seven years of his rule till 1357, for that is the year in which Barani died.
Ramana - I still havent found the download option, I've signed in using my Google account, still not successful. Does this require subscription of some sort. Rgds
Book Recommendation:
A Textbook of Historiography, 500 B.C. to A.D. 2000 By E. Sreedharan
Look in Google Books and read from Chapter 13 page 342. I am going to buy the book.
A Textbook of Historiography
Scanned p 342 onward online. Good stuff.
***Praise be to Google (and Amazon).
The really pure will now have to find ways to hack all these sites..to follow in the footsteps of the ultra-pure library-burning invaders islamics...
Shambhu, Can you look send me by PM? Or upload it for others to download or view?
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