Advices To BJP Party

**acharya** · 05-26-2009, 02:08 AM

QUOTE(Mudy @ May 25 2009, 08:27 AM)Â
Now blame media, or public can't ask,. If public believes donkey is a elephant, they will get donkey it will not convert into Elephant,Â again I am saying Andhi Janta. What else one can expect as an outcome.
You got my drift.


This is not dynastic politics it is feudalism in democracy.Congress party's feudal lords will not give tickets to people who are not loyal to feudal lords-- similarly the DMK and other parties. You cannot survive in the party if you antagonize these heads who prop up feudalism.This has nothing to do with democracy.Representative democracy requires feudalism .Two countries which have used that were all feudal-- India and UK.This is not prevalent in other democracies. Again not conducting referendums in democracies is a characteristic of Feudalism . Feudalism breeds illiteracy and is not transparent .The corruption in the system is because of feudalism

05-26-2009, 06:25 AM

BJPâS FAILURE: An Unbiased Observation
Dr Radhasyam Brahmachari

While BJP was in Power:

Before analyzing the defeat of BJP in the present Lok Sabha election, it is necessary to have a look how the Party came to power in 1999 with 192 MPs. One may recall that in the Lok Sabha elections held in 1998 the BJP led National Democratic Alliance (NDA) obtained a simple majority. This time, the BJP had allied with the AIADMK and the Biju Janata Dal besides its existing allies, the Samata Party, the Shiromani Akali Dal and Shiv Sena. Outside support was provided by the Telugu Desam Party. The NDA had a slim majority, and Vajpayee returned as Prime Minister. But the coalition ruptured in May 1999 when the leader of AIADMK, Jayalalitha, withdrew her support, and fresh elections were again called in October, 1999. Within this brief period, BJP did two remarkable jobs that made it popular across the country. Firstly, it conducted the testing of the nuclear device at Pokhran and secondly, it fought the Kargil war with Pakistan in May-July, 1999.

These two achievements were hailed by the entire population who discovered a courageous fighter in BJP, capable of protecting the sovereignty and freedom of the nation and thrashing the rogue enemy state Pakistan. The people of this country gave BJP a heroâs welcome and, as a consequence, in the Lok Sabha election held on October 13, 1999, the BJP-led NDA won 303 seats. The BJP won an all-time high of 183 seats. Vajpayee became Prime Minister for the third time in his life, and Advani became the Deputy Prime Minister and Home Minister.
But the said image of BJP was considerably shattered when the NDA government shamefully submitted to the unjust demands of the Pakistani terrorists after the hijacking of the Indian Airlines plane, Flight no. 814 on December 24, 1999, and released three dreaded terrorists, most undemocratic way, from the Kashmir jail and one cabinet minister went to Kandahar, by a special plane, with those three terrorists and rupees 900 crores and a planeload of high explosive (to be used against India),.as ransom But after the hijacking drama, it would have been proper for the NDA government to order our army to cross the border of Afghanistan and our air force to bomb Kabul and Kandahar. And thus force the terrorists to release 174 passangers and 15 crew members of the hijacked plane. In this context, one may recall how the Russian government dealt with the Chechen terrorists who seized a school in Beslan in 2004.

On December 13, 2001, five terrorists attacked the Parliament House (Sansad Bhawan) in Delhi. It was due to the prompt and brave action of our security forces, six of whom sacrificed their lives, the lives of a few hundred of our MPs were saved. After this incident many of our commentators described it as a rape of our Parliament, or rather a rape of our democracy. Our military top brass advised the government to take immediate military action against Pakistan and hence to teach a good lesson to that rogue state. Some of our top army personnel commented that we had enough of talks, and time had arrived to act. So an army mobilization was ordered and our troops, with their modern sophisticated weapons were dispatched to the Indo-Pak border and were waiting for final signal from our leaders to cross the border. Our troops were waiting for months after months, but the NDA government failed to gather sufficient courage to give that final signal. Ultimately troops were withdrawn wasting nearly three thousand crores of rupees, as the cost of mobilization and wear and tear of the sophisticated weapons. It is important to note that, had the NDA government conducted the military operation against Pakistan and taught that rogue state a good lesson, the people of this country would have given a heroâs welcome to BJP for the second time and they would have voted BJP to victory in the 2004 Lok Sabha election.

On April 21, 2001, Bangladesh Rifles abducted 15 Border Security Force (BSF) personnel into Bangladesh. They subsequently butchered all the 15 BSF men and carried their mutilated bodies like carcass of animals to return the dead bodies in an extremely humiliating manner. As a cover up of that criminal act by the Bangladesh Rifles (BDR), the government of Bangladesh said that our BSF men illegally crossed the Bangladeshi border and hence BDR captured and killed them. It is to be noted here that, even if it is admitted that the BSF men had entered Bangladesh illegally, it was proper for BDR arrest them and produce them in the court of law. In any case, they could not have killed them.

The most justified reply of the NDA government to this heinous crime was to give order to our army to cross the border of Bangladesh and march towards Dhaka. But our leaders, for the lack sufficient courage or for the sake of its newly adopted policy of Muslim appeasement, failed to take military action against even a small and weak nation like Bangladesh. On the contrary, they supported the claim of the government of Bangladesh that our forces had done a wrong and by entering Bangladesh without any provocation. Our PM sent his personal secretary Brojesh Misra to Dhaka to beg pardon on behalf of the Indian Government for the so called offence committed by our BSF personnel.

It is needless to say that all the above mentioned cowardice acts have completely shattered the image BJP had built up by fighting the Kargil War and testing nuclear device at Pokhran. And there is no doubt that this loss of image had played a major role in its defeat in 2004 Lok Sabha election.

The Hindu Nationalist Party Turned Secular:

We should now have a look on the other activities of the NDA government during its tenure that lasted for 6 years. As a matter of fact, the BJP is a direct successor of The Bharatiya Jana Sangh (BJS), founded in 1951 by Dr Syama Prasad Mookherjee and it was considered the political wing of the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS). After the murder of Dr Mookherjee in custody in 1953, the BJS lasted for 24 more years, but never seriously challenged the power of Indian National Congress It is well known that in 1977, a group of top leaders of BJS, including Atal Bihari Vajpayee and Lal Krishna Advani, formed the new party, the Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) and the RSS duly recognized this new party as its political organ. So, it is not difficult to understand that âHindutvaâ was the fundamental basis of BJP and its ultimate goal was to make India a âHindu Rastraâ.

So, before the Lok Sabha elections in 1998 and 1999, the BJP declared the followings as its professed goals. :
QUOTEÂ 1. No special treatment for any religious group or BJP would never resort to appease the Muslims for securing their votes.
Â 2. The Repeal of Article 370 of the Constitution, which prevents non-Kashmiris, including Hindus who have fled the area due to increasing terrorism, from owning property in the state of Jammu and Kashmir.
Â 3. The Promulgation of a Uniform Common Civil Code, which create only one personal and civil law code for Hindus, Muslims and Christians.
Â 4. A Ban on Cow Slaughter, to honor the Hindu tradition of not consuming the flesh of cow, and prohibiting the consumption of beef.
Â 5. A Complete Ban on Religious Conversions
Â 6. The Construction of the Ram Janmabhoomi temple in Ayodhya,.
Â 7. To achieve the full territorial and political integration of Jammu and Kashmir with India. Presently over 40% of the territory is under the control of Pakistan and China.
Â 8. Identification of Bangladeshi Muslim infiltrators and send them back to Bangladesh and at the same time taking proper steps to stop infiltration of Bangladeshi Muslims to West Bengal..
Â 9. Rehabilitation of the Kashmiri Pundits, who have been evicted from their home land Kashmir and living as refugees in the refugee camps in Delhi.

But after assuming power, the NDA government did not take any initiative to implement any of the above promises. On the contrary, during his visit to Jammu and Kashmir, the Prime Minister Sri Vajpayee assured the Kashmiri Muslims that, so long he is the Prime Minister, the Article 370 would continue. During election campaign BJP promised that it would never indulge in appeasement of the Muslims. But after assuming power, NDA government increased Hajj subsidy for the Muslims and hiked the salary of the imams. Previously the Muslims pilgrims intending to go to Mecca to perform Hajj, had to travel to Mumbai and from Mumbai they used to fly to Jeddah at subsidized rate. But the NDA government arranged flights from all the major cities of India to Mecca and built rest houses, specially for the Hajj pilgrims, in all the major cities of the country.

While it was expected that the NDA government, after assuming power, would strive hard to implement the above mentioned national agenda and hence to consolidate Hindu votes, but on the contrary, it displayed a strong inclination to acquire Muslim votes by appeasement of the Muslims. They floated the idea that all Muslims are not anti-nationals and there also exists a large group of good as well as nationalist Muslims, who are to be brought under the banner of BJP. Which was as ridiculous and bogus as saying, âAll cobras are not bad and there are good cobras as well.â On the basis of this newly invented ridiculous, baseless and bogus ideology, they started to appease the Muslims in a big way, especially in 2000-2001, when Bangaru Laxman became the president of the Party. It is needless to say that from this time onwards, the Hindus started not only to reject, but to hate BJP and its leaders.

As mentioned above, prior to the 1999 election, BJP promised to identify every Bangladeshi Muslim infiltrator and send them back to Bangladesh. But after assuming power, the NDA government, according to their newly adopted policy of Muslim appeasement, took no step in this direction. On the contrary, it adopted a serious anti Hindu step in this context. Previously, the Hindus who, being persecuted by the Muslims, were coming to India from Bangladesh were treated as refugees. But NDA government deprived the Hindus from this facility (which is the standing policy of the UN) and started to treat the Hindus as infiltrators, like the Muslims. In one incident, a Hindu housewife, to save her life from the Muslim goons of Bangladesh, was crossing the border by swimming a canal and the Indian security forces gunned her down. Due to this step-motherly attitude of the NDA government towards the Bangladeshi Hindus, lakhs of Bangladeshi Hindus are still not getting refugee status and hence any assistance from either the state or the Central government.

Another important promise made by BJP was implementation of the uniform civil code for all the citizens on India, irrespective of religion or other differences. In this context, it is important to note that, a verdict of the Supreme Court in mid-2003 upheld the necessity of enforcing âcommon civil codeâ in India, which could liberate India's Muslim women from the shameful gender discrimination like polygamy and oral divorce. But the NDA government, in tune with its new policy of Muslim appeasement, did not take any initiative in this direction, because such a step would have displeased the orthodox Muslim clerics.

Most importantly, the NDA government remained not only silent regarding the construction of temple at Ayodhya, but opposed any attempt or any movement for temple construction. During its tenure Vishwa Hindu Parishad gave a call for a demonstration of the activists at Ayodhya. But to frustrate the effort, NDA government promulgated an ordinance so that police can arrest anyone found to purchase a railway ticket for Ayodhya anywhere in the country. In Kolkata, many VHP workers were arrested and put into police custody, while they were found to purchase railway ticket for Ayodhya at Howrah and Sealdah railway stations. It is really surprising that the NDA government took such step against the people who voted it to power.

When the author of this article asked a BJP leader about this affair, he said that most of the allies of the NDA are secular minded and hence if the government wanted to move forward any issue concerning the Hindus, they would withdraw their support leading to a fall of the NDA government. The question naturally arises â Did the Hindus voted BJP to rule for a full term at the sacrifice of the Hindutva issues? The leaders of BJP failed to understand that, had the government fallen due to an initiative of the BJP to fulfill its pre-election promises, the Hindus would have voted BJP again, perhaps more profusely, and help form the government. But our leaders preferred to remain in power at the sacrifice of its pre-poll promises and thus earned distrust of the Hindus. Many Hindus began to call BJP as âBiswasghatak Janata Partyâ.

Thus, without caring for the sentiment of the electorate, who voted it to power, BJP or the NDA government dumped all its nationalist agenda into the cold storage and at the fag end of its tenure started to build roads, as if the voters had voted it to power for making roads. Prime Minister Sri Atal Bihari Vajpayee was, perhaps, confident that the said road building and the economic reforms he had undertaken, would return him to power again. But the poll results 2004 election reflected that he was wrong. He learned the bitter lesson that the Hindu voters did not make him the Prime Minister of India for making roads and bring economic reforms.

During the 5 year period from 2004 to 2009, BJP has left no stone unturned to expose itself a truly secular party through complete renunciation of its Hindu identity. Its leaders failed to grasp that it drew strength and status from Hindu society alone and it was the Hindus who voted it to power. They failed to learn a lesson from the debacle of 2004 election. So, in stead of Hindutva agenda, they depended on good governance and development to win the 2009 election and kept silence about the most cherished Hindu issues like temple building in Ayodhya, scrapping of Article 370, enforcement of common civil code and so on.

Projecting L K Advani as the Prime Ministerial Candidate:

In this election, the leaders of BJP, without giving much thought, projected elderly Sri L K Advani as its Prime Ministerial candidate, whom a section of the Hindus have identified as a traitor quite a long ago. Sri Advani is the man who, after the demolition of the old temple at Ayodhya on 6th December, 1992, said that it was the most tragic day in his life. Not only that, âMr. Advani took the demolition of the contentious structure as a personal slight (he had promised the Supreme Court nothing would happen), and without any discussion with senior party colleagues present there, especially then party president Murli Manohar Joshi, resigned his post as Leader of the Opposition by faxing his resignation to the Lok Sabha Speaker and releasing the information to the press. The party was faced with an uncomfortable fait accompliâ, writes Mrs Sandhya Jain in her recent article L K Advani: From History to Oblivion.

On 4th June, 2007, when Advani was visiting the mausoleum of M A Jinnah in Karachi, Pakistan, said that Jinnah was a great man and he was secular leader. When I asked a BJP leader of West Bengal, about that contentious comment of Advani, to my utmost astonishment, he supported Advani and said, âAdvaniji was right. In fact, Jinnah was a staunch secular leader at the beginning of his political career.. But later on Gandhi and Nehru spoiled him.â If this was the BJP-way of looking at things, who would rescue it from its imminent downfall?

Nearly 7-8 years ago, when NDA was in power, Advani said that the day of idealism is over, now the day is of new ideas. Or indirectly, he made it clear that BJP would no longer follow the Hindutva ideology as propagated by its parent organization RSS. Or the ideology which had been identified by Swami Vivekananda, Sri Aurovindo, Dr Hedgewar and Guruji Gowalkar as the sole path for the revival of this Hindu nation. All such utterances of Advani makes one to convince that Sri Advani and his coterie have dragged BJP, originally a political party of distinction with the aim for achieving a noble and lofty goal, down to an ordinary political party of petty and conspiratorial politics.

As a result, Hindus lost faith in BJP and its staunch supporters, on their poll-day, remained indoor and enjoyed a holiday. Only 25 per cent of the Hindu electorates turned up at the polling booths to exercise their democratic right and BJP suffered the obvious setback. Only God knows how many years it will take to recover this setback and get back the confidence of the Hindus again.

**acharya** · 05-27-2009, 01:44 PM

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story...3-25377,00.html

Now that Singh's authority is massively enhanced, the dynamics have changed. One of the few good elements in the regional geo-strategic equation that we can rely on is steadiness in Indian policy.

Singh stands now as one of the greatest statesmen in Asian history. As finance minister in 1991, Singh put India on the path of economic reform and liberalisation. Even in the face of the global financial crisis, India's economy will grow by better than 6 per cent this year. It will be, after China, the second fastest growing large economy in the world. Singh's political achievement is extraordinary, all the more so because he is a leader who, until he was catapulted into the prime ministership, was a respected technocrat but not regarded as a first-division practitioner of the political arts. He is the first Indian PM to serve a full term and win re-election since 1961. He has brilliantly expanded India's centre, marginalising both its Left and its Right.

As Pramit Chaudhry, senior editor of the Hindustan Times, and one of India's most brilliant security and economic analysts, explains it, the BJP is a lot like the US Republicans at themoment, lost and in search of anidentity.

"The BJP has two wings," Pramit tells me, "the small-town, cultural conservative, upper-caste Hindu wing, which basically is horrified by all manifestations of modernity. It can't bear to see women drinking and the like. And the big-city, business modernisers, who claim to speak for the new India, and couldn't care less about women drinking or such issues. These two wings basically have nothing incommon."

It drove the BJP's big-city supporters nuts to find the BJP on the same side of the US nuclear deal - that is, opposing it - as the Indian communists and indeed Pakistan. The BJP lost every big city in India except Bangalore.

The nuclear deal, which Singh campaigned for magnificently over four years, and which often seemed extremely unlikely to get up in either India or the US, also established beyond doubt Singh's personal leadership credentials.

05-28-2009, 05:10 PM

Locating BJP's Ideology

QUOTEBy the way, the revamped and redesigned BJP Website has dropped a key feature of the old Website. There used to be an icon on the side-bar by clicking on which you could hear the full version of Vande Mataram. Since those who are responsible for revamping and redesigning the Website are also the brains behind the mission to 'secularise' the BJP, I can only assume that it was a considered decision to distance the BJP from Vande Mataram and disown the National Song as being part of its identity. Ironically, it was the BJP's efforts that led to Parliament according equal status to the National Song as that accorded to the National Anthem -- each session of Parliament begins with Jana Gana Mana and ends with Vande Mataram.

There could be two reasons for dropping Vande Mataram from the BJP Website. One, it makes the BJP 'look' Hindu and thus 'offends' Muslim sensitivities. Two, it makes the BJP appear 'old fashioned' and hence prevents it from 'connecting' with the youth. But Muslims aren't exactly tripping over each other to embrace the BJP, nor are the youth rushing to vote for the party.

Interestingly, although perhaps not coincidentally, the redesigned RSS Website has also dropped Vande Mataram.

I guess nationalism, Hindu, cultural or any which way, is no longer a dirty word only for the 'secularists' but also for our so-called 'nationalists'.

ramana · 05-28-2009, 09:22 PM

From the post by kram

QUOTEBut the said image of BJP was considerably shattered when the NDA government shamefully submitted to the unjust demands of the Pakistani terrorists after the hijacking of the Indian Airlines plane, Flight no. 814 on December 24, 1999, and released three dreaded terrorists, most undemocratic way, from the Kashmir jail and one cabinet minister went to Kandahar, by a special plane, with those three terrorists and rupees 900 crores and a planeload of high explosive (to be used against India),.as ransom But after the hijacking drama, it would have been proper for the NDA government to order our army to cross the border of Afghanistan and our air force to bomb Kabul and Kandahar. And thus force the terrorists to release 174 passangers and 15 crew members of the hijacked plane. In this context, one may recall how the Russian government dealt with the Chechen terrorists who seized a school in Beslan in 2004.

On December 13, 2001, five terrorists attacked the Parliament House (Sansad Bhawan) in Delhi. It was due to the prompt and brave action of our security forces, six of whom sacrificed their lives, the lives of a few hundred of our MPs were saved. After this incident many of our commentators described it as a rape of our Parliament, or rather a rape of our democracy. Our military top brass advised the government to take immediate military action against Pakistan and hence to teach a good lesson to that rogue state. Some of our top army personnel commented that we had enough of talks, and time had arrived to act. So an army mobilization was ordered and our troops, with their modern sophisticated weapons were dispatched to the Indo-Pak border and were waiting for final signal from our leaders to cross the border. Our troops were waiting for months after months, but the NDA government failed to gather sufficient courage to give that final signal. Ultimately troops were withdrawn wasting nearly three thousand crores of rupees, as the cost of mobilization and wear and tear of the sophisticated weapons. It is important to note that, had the NDA government conducted the military operation against Pakistan and taught that rogue state a good lesson, the people of this country would have given a heroâs welcome to BJP for the second time and they would have voted BJP to victory in the 2004 Lok Sabha election.


I dont know if that person even has a real name. Its the most biased articel I ever saw.And full of untruths and naivieity.

First of all its untrue that ransom was paid. Its innuendo that this super patriot has swallowed. Second looks likehe has no knowledge of geogrpahy. How does India march its troops across to Afghainstan. There is a small matter of TSP between them. And if he had paid taxes refgularly the GOI would have had sufficient funds to arm its forces to thelevel of the Russians.

It was the very same Indian Army which a month before the Op Parakramwas busy with exercises in Pokhran which failed to mobilize for three weeks. They are never ready to fight and always force the leadership into political compromises to save tehir H&D. And after retirement the IA leaders write glwoing reports of how they were ready to teach the enemy a lesson. The current IAF chief also has indulged in this BS saying IAF was ready afte 26/11. Then who wasnt?

I think this man deserves the INC govt and should enjoy all the perks it will bring him.

05-28-2009, 10:10 PM

ramana,
These INC gloaters are either belongs to Babu category or just a brand of .......
It was Congress hired goons sitting outside PM residence and beating chest during hijack. Queen Sonia even asked Doctor who was spokesman of Congress chest beating crowd for Delhi election ticket.
It was Doctor who reliased very late that he was used by scums including Babus who came to his house along with Congress goons and even provided talking point.

Indian Army is never prepared and now its heading for doom. File pushers are running country. Why no sting operation in last five years during defence deal?

05-29-2009, 12:51 AM

Vote Count Tamper in 6 suspect states?
Was Vote Machines Tampered?

ravish · 05-29-2009, 11:24 PM

If one goes through the State wise results, it appears that BJPâs seat variation is about 20 seats out of 545. As such, it cannot be said that all is lost for the party. Yes, its results have not been on the expected lines and hence so much noise in the media.
Therefore, a re oriented BJP can still have a good result in future elections. However, to surpass the Congress two different things can happen. One the UPA should perform so badly in the next five years that it gets voted out by the people. Second, the BJP transforms itself with the changing mood of the nation and catches the imagination of the young voters, so that it can get more seats than the Congress.
It is not an impossible task to do so but will require a complete change in the policy and functioning of the Party. The time of Rath, Mandir etc to catch the votes is over. Religion based movements will not bring it to power, as it will not cause any pan Indian appeal to the voters. It is not that the voters have detached themselves from religion. It is because the importance of religion in Politics has diminished and will get further eroded in the years to come.The expectation of development and economic well being are the prime movers of political fortunes in contemporary India.

05-29-2009, 11:53 PM

Defeat doesnât means one should give up but try harder to achieve results. .
Hinduism biggest teaching is rise up against odd.
Being righteous in spite of set backs always earns fame.
Whenever there is a decline in the righteousness (dharma) and predominance of unrighteousness (adharma), someone will rise up and re-establish world order(dharma).
I want others to embrace defeat.

Yes, Hinduism haters will wish for complete destruction of Hinduism. If election was not in BJP favor, it means doomsday. Congress was out power did they stop their Muslim appeasement policy, Hell No. But Congi well wishers were singing non-stop songs for then and now they doing same even they didnât have majority. For majority they need 272 MP. But according to Maths they didnât have number. It also means people had rejected their twisted Hindu hating policy. It also means majority of voters voted to somebody else as total vote share of Congress alone is around 25%
BJP should go back to core Hindutava values and educate people why itâs important.
Complete destruction of commie ideology is very important. These creed, wish for soulless society. Rejection of Communist in West Bengal is sign or revolution that people had rejected irreligious (adharmi) people. Need to clean up West Bengal. Religion should be reintroduced, I know commie, beef eaters, Oxford educated will promote Christianity or Islam. Time to re-introduce Hindusim in West Bengal.
One state at a time for Shudhi.

05-30-2009, 03:06 AM

QUOTE(Mudy @ May 29 2009, 11:53 PM)Rejection of Communist in West Bengal is sign or revolution that people had rejected irreligious (adharmi) people. Need to clean up West Bengal. Religion should be reintroduced, I know commie, beef eaters, Oxford educated will promote Christianity or Islam. Time to re-introduce Hindusim in West Bengal.
One state at a time for Shudhi.

Few corrections, and you will see implication later.

Don't get irritated, but there is no option to demolish your myths otherwise.

Bengal still follows purer Hindu customs than your crowds in Delhi / Punjab.

You Delhi/Punjab loud mouths have lost the track.

You still stick to mid night weddings (typically Delhi Punjabi weddings) a throwback to the times when your women folks used to be abducted by the Moslem goons. The high point of your marriage customs is nowadays is disturbing the neighborhood. Of I do note, that Gotra rules are no longer followed, probably the Islamic incestuous behavior has rubbed off.

The attire you guys have adopted, evident during marriages, is legacy of Hun/Turkish invaders.

The language you speak has no longer even sound like having Sanskrit roots.

When my daughter attained 7 months of age I could not find a single priest in my West Delhi neighbourhood who could claim to perform anna prasanna (in Bengal this rite is administered to infants 6 month - boys 7-9 months girls).

What Hindu community festival of standing do you in these parts? Sorry, hooliganism during Holi does not count.

The upper/middle class population of your area (in fact the entire cow belt) is suitably fcuked up (Macaulayized), that they have allowed large community festivals like ram Lilas to decline.

You guys from upper/middle classes feel shame/embarrassment to visit Ram Lilas yet in Bengal cutting across caste and class lines people rub shoulders in a same Durga Puja pandal.

Had it not been for CBSE run schools and DAVs the population would not even know what is Saraswati Puja.

Yet, Bengal is the only state to have a holiday on Saraswati Puja and every household performs it.

So, much for you guys from the banks of the mighty Saraswati.

Curiously, Bengal also happens to host the maximum numbers of Shakti peeths still maintained and visited by devotees. Local pilgrimage in Punjab/Haryana/Delhi seems to be strongholds of various Sufis/Peers, again a legacy of the Islamic rule.

I could go on...but anyway, you get the picture. It is in North West India that Hinduism has declined in qualitative terms.

>>

Another point of interest. Beef eating is a myth, many commies are devout Hindus in private.

However........it is a self goal topic, this practice (ban on beef) does not stands up to scrutiny if you start digging in scriptures to support this line.

ravish · 05-30-2009, 11:38 AM

The contrasting views expressed by Mudy and Sroy is the true picture of the day dreaming by a section of the people and the reality of contemporary India as brought out by Sroy. This day dreaming is the very reason for the poor showing by the NDA in general and BJP in particular.
Religious agenda, particularly conservative Hindu agenda can never bring success to any political party in India on a national scale. The degrading of the Bengali public of West Bengal has always been a favourite past time of a few individuals, which gets fresh fuel by tagging on with the Communists. India is a democracy and to be a Communist is not a crime, as to be a member of VHP in the propagation and protection of Hindu religious beliefs and disbeliefs ( like self imposed ban on beef eating ).

These old slogans have not worked to the expectation of the day dreamers on a national scale, as is evident from the election results. However, the excuses for the poor performance put forward refuses to accept the irrelevance of religion as a poll issue on a national scale. The continuance of this self denial will bring further disaster to NDA in the future. The only ray of hope is that non of the top leaders of the NDA have so far joined the denial mode on the lines of some of the distinguished thinkers and contributors of this forum .

I entirely agree with Sroy, that the younger generation of the entire so called cow belt have become much more anglicised than those from the East. The popularity of the terms, Daddy. Mummy, Auntiji, Oncalji and the fast growing popularity of jeans and see through dress by the young girls of the region are a clear indicator of which direction the wind is blowing. In most cases, this trend is growing due to open encouragement of the elders in the family and in the society. The community dancing during wedding in which now the elders particularly grandmasâ participation in the geographical region under reference is a pointer to this trend.

05-30-2009, 12:01 PM

=sroy,May 30 2009, 03:06 AM
QUOTEDon't get irritated, but there is no option to demolish your myths otherwise.
Bengal still follows purer Hindu customs than your crowds in Delhi / Punjab.
You Delhi/Punjab loud mouths have lost the track.

You still stick to mid night weddings (typically Delhi Punjabi weddings) a throwback to the times when your women folks used to be abducted by the Moslem goons. The high point of your marriage customs is nowadays is disturbing the neighborhood. Of I do note, that Gotra rules are no longer followed, probably the Islamic incestuous behavior has rubbed off.

The attire you guys have adopted, evident during marriages, is legacy of Hun/Turkish invaders.

The language you speak has no longer even sound like having Sanskrit roots.
What do you mean by YOU GUYs?
Your comments are for those who had migrated from pakistan and practice paki culture. Get your facts right.
Delhi is full of wood from every corner and copycats.
QUOTE
When my daughter attained 7 months of age I could not find a single priest in my West Delhi neighbourhood who could claim to perform anna prasanna (in Bengal this rite is administered to infants 6 month - boys 7-9 months girls).

Did you checked Arya Samaj? or you were just looking for Bengali priest, that will be difficult to find because communist rule had destroyed everything, here you are contradicting yourself.
QUOTEWhat Hindu community festival of standing do you in these parts? Sorry, hooliganism during Holi does not count.

The upper/middle class population of your area (in fact the entire cow belt) is suitably fcuked up (Macaulayized), that they have allowed large community festivals like ram Lilas to decline.

You guys from upper/middle classes feel shame/embarrassment to visit Ram Lilas yet in Bengal cutting across caste and class lines people rub shoulders in a same Durga Puja pandal.
Are you talking about commercial Durga Puja where they even show X-films and Alcohol behind Dugra Idol? Or gathering for eve-teasing inside Pandals or nonsense filmy songs for 7-8 days.
QUOTEHad it not been for CBSE run schools and DAVs the population would not even know what is Saraswati Puja.
Yet, Bengal is the only state to have a holiday on Saraswati Puja and every household performs it.
So, much for you guys from the banks of the mighty Saraswati.

Curiously, Bengal also happens to host the maximum numbers of Shakti peeths still maintained and visited by devotees. Local pilgrimage in Punjab/Haryana/Delhi seems to be strongholds of various Sufis/Peers, again a legacy of the Islamic rule.
You are confused with Partition migrants and their culture.
I think you have no idea how much every single day is celebrated in average North Indian House.
Punjab/Harayana/Himachal survived and faught for long time, every single invaders marched into North India. 30 yrs of communist had done more damage and people had lost way in West Bengal. Anywhere one go, one will find whole Chatterjee, Banerjee, Roy, Pauls, Sens trying to demonize Hindus. They hate themselves and its culture. Big identity crisis.
QUOTEI could go on...but anyway, you get the picture. It is in North West India that Hinduism has declined in qualitative terms.
They never surrendered.
QUOTEAnother point of interest. Beef eating is a myth, many commies are devout Hindus in private.

However........it is a self goal topic, this practice (ban on beef) does not stands up to scrutiny if you start digging in scriptures to support this line.
That is commie translation, It started by British and carryforward by Commies from West Bengal. Whenever you talk about beef, they comes out beating chest that it is written in Vedas so we eat. Another logic they give, Kali also eat beef and we worship Kali.

Communism is bad and it should be eradicated from everywhere. Start from state which is most damaged.

05-30-2009, 01:41 PM

RSS' succession plan for BJP

The BJP is looking back, analysing its poll defeat. But the RSS is looking at the future with a blueprint ready.

Those advocating strident Hindutva want Modi at the helm now.

But the Sangh says Modi will be for the next general elections, after he steers the BJP to a win in the Gujarat polls in 2012.


The switch from Vajpayee to Advani was easy. Now the baton has to be passed to the Gen Next. The RSS blueprint suggests no sudden moves and a bloodless transition. That is why Modi will have to wait

The succession plan by the RSS proposes:

A new BJP president and Leader of the Opposition by 2010

Choosing a Deputy Leader for Lok Sabha now to replace Advani later. Sushma Swaraj is the frontrunner.

And an organisational man to replace Rajnath Singh as party president. Arun Jaitley is the top contender.

Says RSS spokesperson Ram Madhav: "The BJP will do whatever to improve...but we know it will decide keeping our sentiments in mind."

The RSS wants Advani to stay for now to maintain peace among the second rung leaders. Since the Jinnah episode, Advani has been resisting RSS influence. But after the poll defeat will he say no to the RSS? Or will he gracefully exit and help those close to him gain control and through them remote control the party he had once built?

http://www.ndtv.com/news/india/rss_success...lan_for_bjp.php

Husky · (This post was last modified: 05-30-2009, 02:57 PM by Husky.)

QUOTE(sroy @ May 30 2009, 03:06 AM)However........it is a self goal topic, this practice (ban on beef) does not stands up to scrutiny if you start digging in scriptures to support this line.[right][snapback]97919[/snapback][/right]See also: Bodhi's posts 49, 50 (both in Hindi) and 53 (English translation, abridged) in the Vegetarian thread.
And see
http://web.archive.org/web/20061018133609/...es/20011212.htm
QUOTEDid Vedic Hindus really eat cow?
By Sandhya Jain

No comments on Bengal or Punjab or Delhi or wherever not being Hindu enough or something.
Being from TN, I find it a source of <img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/blink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='blink.gif' /> too that others think TN is 'DMK region'. Nah. It's Hindu land.

I think Hindus in various states often get overlooked (loss of visibility) due to all the in-your-face and vocal communists, crypto christo DMK-types, outright christo rule, islamania and psecularism that regularly steal the spotlight.

QUOTE(sroy @ May 30 2009, 03:06 AM)many commies are devout Hindus in private.[right][snapback]97919[/snapback][/right]They can think whatever. There is no universe where one can factually be a communitwit and a Hindu at the same time.

05-30-2009, 05:29 PM

QUOTE(AryanK @ May 30 2009, 01:41 PM)RSS' succession plan for BJP

And an organisational man to replace Rajnath Singh as party president. Arun Jaitley is the top contender.




Arun Jaitley is a poor choice. If BJP wants to be Congress B, he is the right man. By now I thought he would have joined Kangress or Kommunists along with Kulkarni dude - now that he won't have job with Advani.

05-30-2009, 05:37 PM

>>
What do you mean by YOU GUYs?
Your comments are for those who had migrated from pakistan and practice paki culture. Get your facts right.
Delhi is full of wood from every corner and copycats.
>>

Truly Delhi has people from all corners, but bastardization of customs is done by only a few.

>>
Did you checked Arya Samaj? or you were just looking for Bengali priest, that will be difficult to find because communist rule had destroyed everything, here you are contradicting yourself.
>>

In fact I had to go to the Kali Bari in CR park to so that. So, that demolishes two of your lies. Truth is every Bengali priest I've come across knows how to perform Anna Prasana. The population of CR park is entirely composed of partition refugees. Nor they have forgotten or corrupted basic customs neither are they commies.

You are right in one aspect. I could have found out from the Arya Samaj priests. On two occasions when I stood witness for the marriage of my runaway colleagues I found the priests to be well versed.

But my question is why can't the average priest in SD temple perform this basic custom? Why have they forgotten this

>>
Are you talking about commercial Durga Puja where they even show X-films and Alcohol behind Dugra Idol? Or gathering for eve-teasing inside Pandals or nonsense filmy songs for 7-8 days. 
>>

What is commercial Durga Puja BTW? X-Films and alcohol? Have you ever been to a Durga Puja?

My families roots are in rural India and I grew up in Air Force environment. I've seen Durga Pujas organized by small bylanes and also by Air Force people (wherever my father was posted).

Sorry to inform you that I never found the exotic stuff that you mentioned.

And I should point it to you, these were the only occasions I saw senior officers mixing with airmen/other ranks in the festivals. Such is the appeal of this festival. And the credit goes to Bengalis to have kept the tradition alive.

One more phenomenon about the Durga Pujas in Delhi is that I see increasingly large scale participation by non-Bengali devotees. I was a bit surprised to find a clutch of elderly Sikhs.

It just shows the appeal and popular need for a well organized community festivals. Holi and Diwali are major festivals, but are not celebrated in a community gathering mode.

Ram Lila during Dusshera is a good opportunity if the Punjab + Cow belt population gets out if its mistaken sense of class identity and gets down to mix with the masses.

>>
You are confused with Partition migrants and their culture.
I think you have no idea how much every single day is celebrated in average North Indian House.
Punjab/Harayana/Himachal survived and faught for long time, every single invaders marched into North India. 30 yrs of communist had done more damage and people had lost way in West Bengal. Anywhere one go, one will find whole Chatterjee, Banerjee, Roy, Pauls, Sens trying to demonize Hindus. They hate themselves and its culture. Big identity crisis.
>>

Again beating around the bush, aren't you?

Could you point out specific festivals that have been preserved? What answer do you have to account for non-conduct for Saraswati Puja?

BTW, let me assure you I've spent more than half of my life in Delhi. As a kid when my father used to be posted in Delhi and my entire adult professional life. Besides, that most of my fathers postings happen to be in North...Chandigarh, SriNagar, Agra, Allahabad (few small places as well) etc.

I pretty much well versed with the population in these parts, urban and rural.

Finally, being partition migrants is no excuse, our family is also partition migrant. That doesn't mean my father has forgot how to tie a dhoti.

>>
They never surrendered.
>>

Yes, instead the Rajputs went on to make a confederation arrangement after pawning their women.

Sorry, the North West has undergone a gradual Islamization, that is visible in the current day Hindu dress code, cuisine and changes in festival and customs.

Did you notice, to reach Eastern India one has to pass through large swathe of lands starting from Hindukush to Santhal tribal belts. What happened here? Nobody stopped the Islamists?

>>
That is commie translation, It started by British and carryforward by Commies from West Bengal. Whenever you talk about beef, they comes out beating chest that it is written in Vedas so we eat. Another logic they give, Kali also eat beef and we worship Kali.
>>

To be honest I've not yet met a beef eating person and I'm not aware of the reasons they quote.

However, I'll repeat my stand that you must have a very clear and unambiguous scriptural edict if one wishes to argue with documentary evidence.

When arguing with common folks one cannot put forward interpretations etc., what's needed is a very precise book, chapter, section etc. reference.

This is the loophole what commies might have exploited.

>>
Communism is bad and it should be eradicated from everywhere. Start from state which is most damaged.
>>

This is the point that I agree with you completely.

However, the reason for cutting across your post was to point out the fact that Hindutva in its current form cannot gain territorial expansion if it cannot take into account regional variations of Hindu practices or extent of Hindu roots elsewhere.

Your post come across as if you are not aware of Hindu customs elsewhere. Sorry, it is a loss for all of us, assuming you also vote for BJP like me.

Way to go there.

05-30-2009, 07:56 PM

QUOTE(ravish @ May 30 2009, 11:38 AM)The contrasting views expressed by Mudy and Sroy is the true picture of the day dreaming by a section of the people and the reality of contemporary India as brought out by Sroy. This day dreaming is the very reason for the poor showing by the NDA in general and BJP in particular.
Religious agenda, particularly conservative Hindu agenda can never bring success to any political party in India on a national scale. The degrading of the Bengali public of West Bengal has always been a favourite past time of a few individuals, which gets fresh fuel by tagging on with the Communists. India is a democracy and to be a Communist is not a crime, as to be a member of VHP in the propagation and protection of Hindu religious beliefs and disbeliefs ( like self imposed ban on beef eating ).

These old slogans have not worked to the expectation of the day dreamers on a national scale, as is evident from the election results. However, the excuses for the poor performance put forward refuses to accept the irrelevance of religion as a poll issue on a national scale. The continuance of this self denial will bring further disaster to NDA in the future. The only ray of hope is that non of the top leaders of the NDA have so far joined the denial mode on the lines of some of the distinguishedÂ thinkers and contributors of this forum .

I entirely agree with Sroy, that the younger generation of the entire so called cow belt have become much more anglicised than those from the East. The popularity of the terms, Daddy. Mummy, Auntiji, Oncalji and the fast growing popularity of jeans and see through dress byÂ the young girls of the region are a clear indicator of which direction the wind is blowing. In most cases, this trend is growing due to open encouragement of the elders in the family and in the society. The community dancing during wedding in which now the elders particularly grandmasâ participation in the geographical region under reference is a pointer to this trend.
[right][snapback]97960[/snapback][/right]


Ravishji,

In the Lok Sabha elections, in Bengal as many as 6 constituencies BJP has played spoiler to Left chances. There is no BJP organisation to speak of in Bengal today.

However, these places has dedicated RSS network. They are secretive and keep to themselves to avoid clashing with communist cadre.

The 10-20% range of BJP vote in these places is entirely on peoples self will. There was no BJP campaigning in WB till date.

One must note, if BJP presents itself as a better alternative then it would have won in many places.

Trinamool has countered the Left in terms of goon power and money power. BJP has none. But these are surmountable if RSS charts out a plan.

So what do people like Mudyji do? Go out and brand everyone in WB as commie. <!--emo& Sad

--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /> 

It is not fair to blame BJP, if BJP's vocal supporters like Mudyji speak as such in public forums.

05-30-2009, 09:16 PM

sroy,
In late 60s when Indira Gandhi formed Government with Left/Communist support, it started worst cultural destruction of India or Hindu culture. It was worse then Nehru ways of suppression of Hindu voice by declaring Hindu organization illegal. There was ban on RSS and smaller Hindu organizations. There was a restriction to hire them; people had used this to settle score. But Indira gave Education and Cultural ministry to Communist and they destroyed everything for ever. They targeted books and Government functioning. Nural Hassan and his cronies masterminded whole destruction. Bodies like ICCR, NCERT, History department or UGC are corrupted by them to core. Sanskrit is completely removed as a major language but Urdu was promoted. All Islamic invaders were treated as Hero and Hindu fighters as jerks. These people are calling butcher Akbar as Akbhar the great and a sign of secularism (do they know meaning of secularism). They had created Aurangjeb as reformer. Damn Aurangjeb road pass from center of Delhi. Books refer 1857 as mutiny not first war of Independence. We had generation lost, who had or in process to forget their own History. Now fresh assault on Lord Rama, or I say one of the surviving historical book on ancient India, which is not corrupted by West Bengal communist. I consider its more important as a history then Religion, thatâs my view, but current rulers with communist association tried to destroy Rama or historical connection Ram Setu, so that ambical cord to be disconnected and that will break their link to History, ancestor and pride and as they already call it mythology, if remove Ram Setu after 100 years one can say it was myth, no ground symbols or fact.

Whether you realize or not you yourself had influence of communism by using "upper middle class", class war is major component of communism. Pit each other on the basis of class and spew hatred. I always say, remove Durga Puja from Bengal, and check what will left. I challenged one great Communist from West Bengal and asked him, do it. His answer was this is a biggest source of recruitment and funds for communist. Majority of cases, they themselves organize this not because they are die hard believer in religion or tradition but it helps them to swell their kitty and brainwash more. In unit (forces) celebration they don't get chance to do what they do outside or in civilian area. We had forced out Durga Puja from our area, and later other also kicked out because it was used for illegal activities, idiots were charging for movies. Pandal entry was paid one. It was common to see one side they are doing Durga arti and other partition drunks were having disco. Nobody from Durga committee objected. Safe place to keep alcohol was back or under Durga stage. One incidence they were distributing condoms inside Pandal. One kid brought it home thinking it was a supari packet. Communism in West Bengal had destroyed human development, living standard, this state will be last to come out from poverty, only if it stays free from communist for 30-40 years. Generation lost. Those who are educated or elite class, they are promoting communism/ class war wherever they go. Living on other misery gives them source of income. Punjab, Himachal etc poverty is non existence. Poverty is either due to Alcohol or drug abuse.
QUOTETo be honest I've not yet met a beef eating person and I'm not aware of the reasons they quote.
You have one on this forum, die hard promoter who call it self imposed restriction in last post. Now you have met one.
I tell those beef eaters who use Kali, I tell them have you seen skulls around Kali, she is promoting Cannibalism, Go for it.

I think hoping that some political party will come as Savior in WB and can save; it should be from people to demand for such party to fill vacuum. First ground should swell. 45% of India didn't voted and rest voted for 5-6 different political party. There is a big vacuum, it should be tapped.

05-30-2009, 09:48 PM

QUOTE(Mudy @ May 30 2009, 09:16 PM)sroy,
In late 60s when Indira Gandhi formed Government with Left/Communist support, it started worst cultural destruction of India or Hindu culture. It was worse then Nehru ways of suppression of Hindu voice by declaring Hindu organization illegal. There was ban on RSS and smaller Hindu organizations. There was a restriction to hire them; people had used this to settle score. But Indira gave Education and Cultural ministry to Communist and they destroyed everything for ever. They targeted books and Government functioning. Nural Hassan and his cronies masterminded whole destruction. Bodies like ICCR, NCERT, History department or UGC are corrupted by them to core. Sanskrit is completely removed as a major language but Urdu was promoted. All Islamic invaders were treated as Hero and Hindu fighters as jerks. These people are calling butcher Akbar as Akbhar the great and a sign of secularism (do they know meaning of secularism). They had created Aurangjeb as reformer. Damn Aurangjeb road pass from center of Delhi. Books refer 1987 as mutiny not first war of Independence. We had generation lost, who had or in process to forget their own History. Now fresh assault on Lord Rama, or I say one of the surviving historical book on ancient India. I consider its more important as a history then Religion, thatâs my view, but current rulers with communist association tried to destroy Rama or historical connection Ram Setu, so that ambical cord to be disconnected and that will break their link to History, ancestor and pride.

This is an uniform phenomenon. I'm a product of CBSE product. Not relevant to current discussion.

QUOTE(Mudy @ May 30 2009, 09:16 PM)Whether you realize or not you yourself had influence of communism by using "upper middle class", class war is major component of communism. Pit each other on the basis of class.

So, class categorization is a exclusive right of the commies? If one looks at social layers in terms of socio-economic indicators one becomes a commie?

Sir, persist with with Lahori logic, nobody is stopping you. If you are hell bent on assuming a head in the sand attitude to mere baap ka kya jata hai.

QUOTE(Mudy @ May 30 2009, 09:16 PM)I always say, remove Durga Puja from Bengal, and check what will left. I challenged one great Communist and asked him, do it. 

Why didn't you ask a lay Hindu? If you ask a commie, he'll oblige you accordingly.

I think in my last post I've listed Hindu practices in Bengal and the zeal of the people. However if you seek certificate from commies it is your problem.

QUOTE(Mudy @ May 30 2009, 09:16 PM)His answer was this is a biggest source of recruitment and funds for communist. Majority of cases, they themselves organize this not because they are die hard believer in religion or tradition but it helps them to swell their kitty and brainwash more. 

What's stopping RSS and VHP?

Did your commie friend tell you that the Puja Pandals are equally sought by Rama Krishna Mission and Bharat Seva Ashram guys for donations and volunteers?

Or do you think that these Hindu organizations are not worthy peers to blue-blooded RSS?

QUOTE(Mudy @ May 30 2009, 09:16 PM)In unit (forces) celebration they don't get chance to do what they do outside or in civilian area. We had forced out Durga Puja from our area, and later other also kicked out because it was used for illegal activities, idiots were charging for movies. Pandal entry was paid one. It was common to see one side they are doing Durga arti and other partition drunks were having disco. Nobody from Durga committee objected. Safe place to keep alcohol was back or under Durga stage. One incidence they were distributing condoms inside Pandal. One kid brought it home thinking it was a supari packet.


See keep your ethnic biases to yourselves. I'm not blaming you outright, given the knowledge of lay population and caste and clan mentality of people at large.

It is the thinking similar to your types that labels every Bengali villagers in metros as Bangladeshis. It is not ignorance, but sheer racism. Kicking out Durga Puja is a part of the process.

Charging money for entry or movie screening? That's slander. I've taken part of enough civilian (since you excluded the forces ones) Durga Pujas in Delhi and what you said is a lie.

I'm not aware of anybody distributing condoms. Don't they distribute condoms in Hindutvawadi Gujarat during Navaratris? Seems like common folks have better wisdom to see that teenagers have a bit of leeway and yet remain under Hindu fold, unlike your puritanical attitude.

QUOTE(Mudy @ May 30 2009, 09:16 PM)Communism in West Bengal had destroyed human development, living standard, this state will be last to come out from poverty, only if it stays free from communist for 30-40 years. Generation lost. Those who are educated or elite class, they are promoting communism/ class war wherever they go. Living on other misery gives them source of income. Punjab, Himachal etc poverty is non existence. Poverty is either due to Alcohol or drug abuse.
[right][snapback]97983[/snapback][/right]

Elite class everywhere has disproportionate visibility in media/press.

Punjab and Himachal is not sum total of India.

If Punjab thinks that moving to the West as illegal immigrants and living as second class citizens is solution to employment, then good for Punjab.

But don't expect rest of India to follow that model.

05-30-2009, 10:00 PM

QUOTE(Mudy @ May 30 2009, 09:16 PM)I think hoping that some political party will come as Savior in WB and can save; it should be from people to demand for such party to fill vacuum. First ground should swell. 45% of India didn't voted and rest voted for 5-6 different political party. There is a big vacuum, it should be tapped.
[right][snapback]97983[/snapback][/right]


BJP is the best alternative. If RSS gets its networks activated.

We need to wait for few more years.

The Trinamool goons will neutralize the Leftists goons and the Left cadre system will begin to crumble. An added advantage is that Trinamool has no ideological basis.

A second factor is the Muslim population. If you look at election results and plot them on the map, then you will find that BJP votes have automatically materialized wherever Muslim population has reached uncomfortable levels.

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