Indian Dress Styles

[Bharatvarsh]

Bodhiji it still mentions the foreign origins of the dress:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->This Kancuka has the four-pointed hem of the Kushan-Parthian under tunic, Which was common to all scythian races including the kshatrapas. The indigenous influences is in the choice of thinner and more decorative cloth used to suit the climate conditions of India, and the rich way of life at court. The alck of jewellery would also denote a foreigner.

http://www.4to40.com/discoverindia/index.a...verindia_guptas<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
One of the things unique to a lot of Indian origin clothes is that they tend to be unstitched, sari is the most obvious example of this.

It's interesting to note the similarities chudidar has with the salwar though.

Mudy thanks for the great article by the way.

[ramana]

One thing you notice from Mughal minatures is that the churidar is a courtly dress while the Salwar is a rustic dress. And from the Ajanta paintings it was also indegenous. The paintings of the Satavahana period also show the dvarapalaka in churidar.

<img src='http://www.4to40.com/images/discoverindia/ancient_indian_costume/satavahana/satavahana_dvarpala_door_keeper.gif' border='0' alt='user posted image' />

[ramana]

Maybe the Afghan women chose the salwar as an adaptation of the churidar which was native to India and it made its re-entrance into India in the Mughal period. As you recall Afghanistan (Vahic Pradesh) was part of the Shahi kingdom and was well known in the Maurya period.

[Bharatvarsh]

ramanaji thanks for the confirmation, I wonder if salwar borrowed anything from the chudidar (in view of the similarities between both of them) or if it developed independently.

[ramana]

Please read my post above yours. I am saying that the Afghan Salwar is an adapatation of the churidar and came back to India during the Mughal era. Its clear from the Ajanta paintings that the churidar was known to Hindus. Most probably the Afghan women adapted it for their harsh environment. They also might have got it from their contacts on the West. The salwar got adopted in the North among the pesantry as a conveinent garment for field work. Even in the South India it was the working women who adopted it in the mid 80s.

If you really think about it the salwar is a cross between the churidar and the harem pants of the Arab nautch girls.

[Guest]

Bharatvarsh,
Indians psec-historians especially Muslims have tendency to call everything foreign origin. We should not forget Drupati long cloth/sari.

I think Churidar pants are basically stitched Dhoti, easy to wear.

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Yes, [saree] is very much Hindu. Hindu scriptures recommend wearing clothes without knot while performing religious ritual. I think they are connected. In MP/Chattisgarh, tribal women wear sari knee length without blouse.
My great grand mother (both side) never wore Salwar and they are from Punjab, Either they used ghagra/ghagri or Sari without front plates. Blouse was not like now a day’s style which shows stomach, but something like long shirt without collars. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->My sister told me that from what she had read the Sari shows the womb area because that has something to do with Parvati - Shakthi, or Prakriti. Women represent Goddess, Goddess represents creation, hence womb. She said saree was worn the way it was in imitation of this Goddess aspect. This might sound like western anthropological reasoning, but I think it's just a trivial way of explaining one of the Hindu reasons for wearing the Sari.

Could it be that the blouse in Punjab is long because it is colder there? Or just that blouses were an innovation which developed much later anyway, hence it comes in different styles like full and half-torso?
And as a general question, do the women in Punjab wear the Sari like in Gujarat or like in South India or different from both?

'Churidar' is supposed to be 'chudidar'? I've been pronouncing it wrong forever? <!--emo&:o--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/ohmy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='ohmy.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Chudidar-<i>type</i> clothes could well have been used in both India upto Persia, with variations of this kind of dress spanning the ancient Indian-Iranian frontiers even very long ago. Chudidar being the Indian version and perhaps a more baggy-pants version in the Indian part of Afghanistan and maybe onto Persia? Does anyone know what the traditional Zoroastrian dress for women and men is, it might throw more light on this? Then again, if they had many types of clothes for their people to wear, like they do in India, then it would be hard to track down all of what they wore.

Bharatvarsh, I agree about the foreign-sounding nature of foreign words. I don't know any Hindi other than counting 1 to 10 and, of course, the word 'acha' (sp?). But I know how it sounds, as I've heard it a lot including traditional Hindi.
I can generally tell the difference between whether imported words are Iranian or Arabic, but can't figure out whether those Iranian words derived from Arabic since Islamic times, or derived from older Persian like Avesta. That is, whether those Iranian words are of Arabian or Persian origin.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->The word comes from the Persian: شلوار, meaning pants, ultimately from Arabic سروال, note the inversion of the letters ل and ر which has happened in the adaptation process.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salwar_kameez<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd--><!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--> http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/platts/
For shalwar it gives a Pahlavi origin:
S shalwār [Pehl. śarvār; Zend śāra-vāra; prob. akin to S. शिरस्+उरस्], s.m. Trousers, drawers (reaching to the feet), breeches.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Those two sites don't wholly agree. The first says the word Salwar ultimately derives from Arabic, the second (which I find more likely; besides, the first is wackipedia which is essentially unreliable) says it has an Iranian origin. Zend is ancient Iranian if it's the same as what 'Zend Avesta' refers to. Then that could be older than the Arabic.
And most material innovations generally travelled from Persia to Old Arabia (not that Old Arabia had no innovations of its own). Even after Islam, Persian influence and later Iranian influence went to Arabia rather than other way around.

[Guest]

There is a reference from Bramha Vaivarta Purana:

Vishwakarma cha Sudrayaam veeryaadhaanam chakAr Ha
tato vabhoovuh putraaste navaite shipakarinah
mAlAkArah karmakArah shankhakArah kuvindakah
kumbhakArah kansakArah Sadete shilpinAm varah
sutradhAr chitrakArah swarnakarastathaiva cha
patitaste bramha shApad ajatyA varna sankarAh

which in brief means Vishwakarma conceived, through the womb of a Sudra lady, 9 sons, whom he then trained in 9 different shilpakala (crafts) - gardening, ironsmith, shankhakar (shell-making), kuvinda (weaver), clay pot making, brass moulding, carpenting, sculpture/painting, and goldsmith. This way majority of ancient art-crafts are covered, and mentioned to have had a Kshatriya paternal and Sudra maternal parentage. (it then says these jatis will eventually befall due to certain curse of Bramha, and become ajatiya varna-sankara.)

But point is - 'Kuvindak' does not seem to include tailors. so Hindus considered "weaving" a shilp (art-craft) but tailoring/stitching not so...!

Added Later : curse mentioned is only for the last 3 of the 9.

[Bharatvarsh]

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->'Churidar' is supposed to be 'chudidar'? I've been pronouncing it wrong forever?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is "Churidar"alright when written but in speech I believe "d" replaces "r", for example in Punjabi "kuri" is used for a girl in writing but when pronounced "d" is used in place of "r", atleast that's what my experience tells me.

[Shambhu]

BTW some linguistologistics:

Shirt is Komeese in Konkani (and Portuguese too I guess)
and is Chemise in French.

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->It is "Churidar"alright when written but in speech I believe "d" replaces "r", for example in Punjabi "kuri" is used for a girl in writing but when pronounced "d" is used in place of "r", atleast that's what my experience tells me.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nope,
Churi means bangles or rings. Bottom of pant is shaped or to be set like rings. It is pronounced as 'r' in Punjabi. "Kuri" and "Kudi" both are used to refer girl in Punjabi. There is a difference between Dhoba punjabi and other side of Dhoba (Pakistan). Even near Harayana or Pathankot or Jammu or Himachal one can find lot of Punjabi dialect.
Punjabis are very good in destroying any language, sorry no offence to anybody. <!--emo&--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Some examples Round – Rawnd
Blue - Balue

[Guest]

Was a qwestion in one of the topics:what clothing the zoroastrians from Iran may wear.An least the parsi-zoroastrian womens wear dress in living colours(which zoroastrians apreciate).
I so a zoroastrian women from Pire-Sadz wearing a green long dress from head to toe.The dress have many red-white dots on a green background.I gona try to make a picture of that dress whit my photo-cam

[ramana]

<!--QuoteBegin-ramana+Jul 13 2007, 06:26 PM-->QUOTE(ramana @ Jul 13 2007, 06:26 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Google e-Book: Indo-Aryans_Rajendralal Mitra_1881

Has good description of Hindu architecture and customs etc.
[right][snapback]71167[/snapback][/right]
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Also see Chapter IV on dress and ornamentation in Ancient India.

[Guest]

Does anyone know if the white shirt that men wear along with the veshti was ever part of the original Tamil or South Indian traditional attire?

Also for the North Indians, how many up north are still true to the dhoti? When I see pictures, most are wearing pants. Is it better in rural areas? In Tamil Nadu (and probably all south Indian states), wearing the veshti is a sign of manliness and people who wear shorts or pants are scoffed at.

[Bharatvarsh]

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Also for the North Indians, how many up north are still true to the dhoti? When I see pictures, most are wearing pants. Is it better in rural areas? In Tamil Nadu (and probably all south Indian states), wearing the veshti is a sign of manliness and people who wear shorts or pants are scoffed at.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I guess people do wear it:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=wQqvW8nyxxE

This is a lungi of course, which is also worn in south normally (veshti being more formal), I wear this most of the time.

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Also for the North Indians, how many up north are still true to the dhoti? When I see pictures, most are wearing pants.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Rural punjab /Harayana I can say 90% wear Lungi (tamba).
Urban Punjab/Harayana, at home 65% wear lungi.


<b>Check this youtube Video for dress</b>
http://youtube.com/watch?v=9yp8U8VDmro&s...punjabi%20

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=wQqvW8nyxxE<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My favorite song. This is one of the classic folk song.

[Guest]

<b>Phulkari </b> an embroidery technique from the Punjab in India.
link
There is reference of Phulkari in Vedas, Mahabharat, Guru Granth Sahib and folk songs of Punjab.
<img src='http://handicraft.indiamart.com/gifs/phulkari-bagh.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />

<img src='http://www.pashminagolden.com/pashmina-cashmere/phulkari-03.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />


Punjabi Juti (slippers) very popular in punjab
<img src='http://www.punjabjutti.com/product/thumbnail/JSL-01.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />

[Bharatvarsh]

Is the nosestud a native thing or a later influence after Muslims came.

I found this:

http://satyameva-jayate.org/2007/09/18/if-...ilak-was-funny/

This is also there in TN and South which did not have as much Muslim influence, anyone has a clue?

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-Bharatvarsh+Sep 18 2007, 08:53 PM-->QUOTE(Bharatvarsh @ Sep 18 2007, 08:53 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Is the nosestud a native thing or a later influence after Muslims came.

I found this:
http://satyameva-jayate.org/2007/09/18/if-...ilak-was-funny/

This is also there in TN and South which did not have as much Muslim influence, anyone has a clue?[right][snapback]73305[/snapback][/right]<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Among S Indian Hindus it is a highly religious thing, together with toe rings.
I heard my older aunts and grandmother talking to my sister about these things in the period leading up to, and just after, her wedding. (But she has not got her nose pierced so far, don't know if she will.) Ear studs also had some significance to do with marriage, but can't remember.
Also, all the Goddesses in TN and Karnatakan temples I have been to have always worn nosestuds - I think both sides (like my mum, all my aunts and grandmothers have). Same goes for all the temple vigraha paintings of Goddesses that I have seen. According to my dad, it is a must to draw them in if anyone is thinking of painting a genuine Goddess as she is in the Indian temple in the traditional way. (Just like one must include all 5 of Mahavishnu's implements if one were to draw him, and the correct items in Lakshmi's or Saraswati's hands, and the like.)
I don't know any more than that myself.

With the exception of muslim women of the Indian subcontinent, I have never seen islamis with nosestuds. For instance, I've never seen Tunisian women wear it (I've seen a video of Tunisian homelife) nor the few Iraqi and Afghan women I've seen here. Don't know about real-life Iranian muslim women, but can't recall as the ones I've seen on TV programs had any nosestuds.

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-Husky+Sep 19 2007, 03:17 PM-->QUOTE(Husky @ Sep 19 2007, 03:17 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Bharatvarsh+Sep 18 2007, 08:53 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Bharatvarsh @ Sep 18 2007, 08:53 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Is the nosestud a native thing or a later influence after Muslims came.

I found this:
http://satyameva-jayate.org/2007/09/18/if-...ilak-was-funny/

This is also there in TN and South which did not have as much Muslim influence, anyone has a clue?[right][snapback]73305[/snapback][/right]<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Among S Indian Hindus it is a highly religious thing, together with toe rings.
I heard my older aunts and grandmother talking to my sister about these things in the period leading up to, and just after, her wedding. (But she has not got her nose pierced so far, don't know if she will.) Ear studs also had some significance to do with marriage, but can't remember...

..With the exception of muslim women of the Indian subcontinent, I have never seen islamis with nosestuds. For instance, I've never seen Tunisian women wear it (I've seen a video of Tunisian homelife) nor the few Iraqi and Afghan women I've seen here. Don't know about real-life Iranian muslim women, but can't recall as the ones I've seen on TV programs had any nosestuds.
[right][snapback]73338[/snapback][/right]
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

I have never seen any Arab woman or women from the middle-east in general wear a nose-ring. Among muslims, the nose-ring seems to be common only among those from the Indian subcontinent. Again, there are regional variations within India in propensity to wear a nose-ring: a tamilian muslim woman is more likely to wear a nose-ring than a muslim from the north. Unlike for hindus, the nose-ring is not seen as mandatory for Indian muslims. Hence, the inter-religious influence, if any, of the nose-ring must be from hinduism to islam after the mughal invasions. In the south, particularly TN, nose-rings are seen as mandatory for married Hindu women, especially both nostrils. For unmarried girls, the nose-ring is worn only on one side (I forget which side denotes unmarried status), and after marriage, it is typically worn on both sides.

In fact, one of the muslim websites - I forget which one - had a debate not long ago about whether it is acceptable for muslim women to wear a nose-ring. This debate in that muslim website was started I presume because there are many young muslim women living in the West, who would like to wear a nose-ring for ornamental purpose, or do other types of body-piercing, just like their western counterparts, but are not sure how islam treates body-piercing. Based on the discussion, it seemed like many muslims of Arab origin frown upon body piercing and call it unislamic, whereas those from the Indian subcontinent think its OK. Thus, this lends me to believe that any influence has to be from hinduism to Islam than the other way around.