Advices To BJP Party

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->This is an uniform phenomenon.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So accept it.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm glad that your racist streak is coming out<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I thought Indian subcontinent constitute same race. Nobody want drunk roaming in their own yard, eve teasing resident.

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->So, class categorization is a exclusive right of the commies? If one looks at social layers in terms of socio-economic indicators one becomes a commie?

Sir, persist with with Lahori logic, nobody is stopping you. If you are hell bent on assuming a head in the sand attitude to mere baap ka kya jata hai.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh! yes these are indicators one can find from other writings. Choice of term.

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-Mudy+May 30 2009, 09:16 PM-->QUOTE(Mudy @ May 30 2009, 09:16 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->To be honest I've not yet met a beef eating person and I'm not aware of the reasons they quote.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You have one on this forum, die hard promoter who call it <i>self imposed restriction </i> in last post. Now you have met one.
I tell those beef eaters who use Kali, I tell them have you seen skulls around Kali, she is promoting Cannibalism, Go for it.
[right][snapback]97983[/snapback][/right]
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In the final analysis all it matters is the numbers we have in our favour. That's the reason I do not dwell upon personal preferences. Food I believe is should not be taken as a decisive marker.

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-Mudy+May 30 2009, 10:04 PM-->QUOTE(Mudy @ May 30 2009, 10:04 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->So, class categorization is a exclusive right of the commies? If one looks at social layers in terms of socio-economic indicators one becomes a commie?

Sir, persist with with Lahori logic, nobody is stopping you. If you are hell bent on assuming a head in the sand attitude to mere baap ka kya jata hai.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh! yes these are indicators one can <b>find from other writings</b>. Choice of term.
[right][snapback]97987[/snapback][/right]
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Doesn't matter.

If you say a Right wing activist cannot use economic indicators or cannot speak for the poors, then why blame the commies?
It is you that has left the political space for them.

[Guest]

So you accepted.
When vacuum is created someone will occupy. But it should come from people, it should be from ground level. They should desire first.

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-Mudy+May 30 2009, 10:42 PM-->QUOTE(Mudy @ May 30 2009, 10:42 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->So you accepted.
When vacuum is created someone will occupy. But it should come from people, it should be from ground level. They should desire first.
[right][snapback]97991[/snapback][/right]
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Right and wrong.

Right because the vacuum was not exploited by the Hindu right. They should have realized that cultural rejuvenation with poverty alleviation would have created a strong and lasting movement.

Wrong because the situation in Bengal also demands an ideological shift. And ideological movements are spearheaded by the educated elite.

[ravish]

Roybabu,

Great debate , many new analysis.Hope some of the decision makers of BJP read this forum.One piece of informatin I may share. Next time fromWest Delhi no need togo to CR Park for priest, you can get one in Matri Mandir at SD Enclave.

[Capt M Kumar]

<!--emo&:cool--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/specool.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='specool.gif' /><!--endemo--> If the first freedom movement saw free and fair elections shape our destiny, the second freedom movement saw federal aspirations find expression through the emergence of regional parties, faith oriented aspirations find expression through the emergence of BJP, socio-economic aspirations of a large section that have been historically discriminated have found expression in the emergence of caste based parties.

While giving oxygen to these aspirations the second Freedom movement did not really provide Institutional solutions while resorting to quick fix political solutions that have either found to be Constitutionally unsustainable or morally Unconscionable.

http://offstumped.wordpress.com/

[Guest]

<b>BJP must choose between ideology and drift</b>

<img src='http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_0C0lsBVYlm8/Sh73YpT5bLI/AAAAAAAABYo/mV0x7sHkicg/s1600/ravan_pic.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />

The varied response to my last entry, Locating BJP’s Ideology, is also indicative of the lack of unanimity and the confusion that prevails within the party.

There are those who swear by ‘Hindutva’ and believe that the path to electoral success lies through communal polarisation. Their logic: Muslims won’t vote for BJP in any event; the ‘Hindu vote’ is fragile and given to fragmentation along caste lines; and, in the final analysis, emotive and not substantive issues matter during elections.

Then there are those who believe ‘Hindutva’ (in whatever form) has been grafted on the party needlessly. They would rather go along with ‘Integral Humanism’. There’s a problem though: Not too many of those who espouse this line are well-acquainted with Pandit Deendayal Upadhyaya’s exposition of ‘Integral Humanism’. Intellectual rigour is not the forte of either this group or any other; political rhetoric is often palmed off as ideological discourse.

There’s a third section in the party which is ‘ideology neutral’, does not have either the time or the inclination to study and internalise the ‘political philosophy’ of the party. They are there for reasons that I have elaborated upon in my previous post.

Confusion on the ideological front is confounded when senior leaders dismiss ideology in the most facile manner. LK Advani has on more than one occasion said that “ideology has no relevance to governance”.

Which perhaps explains why the BJP in power (1998-2004) failed to meet the voters’ expectations while dealing with terrorism, Bangladeshi infiltration and even something as ‘secular’ as reviewing the Constitution or dealing with corruption.

Let us not forget that after promising to detect, detain and deport illegal immigrants, the BJP actually floated the idea of issuing ‘special identity cards’ (work permits) to them. The BJP had pledged to repeal the IMDT Act, but it didn't do so in the six years it was in power. It needed a Supreme Court judgement to spike this monstrosity after the UPA came to power.

The Prime Minister need not have visited the Vatican during the India-EU Summit in Rome only to be castigated by Pope John Paul II and handed over a demarche. A party president who was caught on tape taking cash was merely made to stand in a corner instead of being packed off in sack cloth and ashes. The bar for ministerial probity should have been set much higher. Arrogance came to substitute humility. The BJP played ducks and drakes with the Bofors scam case. Bureaucrats who discovered 'RSS links' were promoted over able and intelligent officers. Navin Chawla was rehabilitated.

The flip-flop over relations with Pakistan (Lahore bus journey-Kargil-Agra-Parliament attack-aar paar ki ladaai – let’s kiss and make up) and the constant hand-wringing made a mockery of the BJP-led Government. It’s not sufficient to distance yourself from the capitulation at Kandahar; it was a collective decision, never mind what certain individuals have to say. I was in the PMO those days and I can vouch for this fact.

Therefore, what is required is clarity of thought. The BJP must decide its ideological direction/orientation, reframe ideology within the matrix of today’s India, and stand by it. Or it must boldly stand up and say, “Ours is an ideology neutral party. We shall sway with the wave.”

The consequences of the former course of action would be three-fold:
. Those allergic to ideological rigour will make an exit. This could debilitate the party in the short and medium term, but strengthen it in the long term.
. The BJP’s integrity quotient will increase.
. The drift which began in 1998 will be arrested.


The consequences of abandoning ideology would also be three-fold:
. Those who lack morals and scruples shall take over the party.
. The BJP will, in due course, become a pale shadow of its past and jostle for space with the RJD and SP.
. The drift will gather speed; integrity quotient (at an all time low) will plummet.

A couple of points merit mention:

a. Commitment to ideology does not amount to shrill enunciation and raucous denunciation.
b. Hindutva does not have to be limited to politics of exclusivism or identity-based politics.

Linked to the issue of ideology are three other important issues:

a. Leadership
b. Organisation
c. Expansion.

[Guest]

<b>Without ideology, BJP is nothing</b>

The responses to my last post have been extremely useful; they have helped clear doubts in my mind. Scintillating debate, even when it gets sharp, is always welcome.

The rise of the BJP between 1989 and 1998 was directly linked to assertive Hindu expectations articulated by an assertive Hindu leadership. These can be briefly summed up as:

. Political: Hindus had begun to tire of Congress's 'pseudo-secularism'; deep within them, Indians nurse a concept of nationhood whose defining contours are Hindu. When I say Hindu, it is not religion specific but culture and civilisation specific. The Ram Janmabhoomi agitation found a resonance across the country because it became a symbol of both bruised Hindu pride and an opportunity to correct a historical wrong. We could debate the merits of such perceived hurt and grievance, but that is not really relevant; what is relevant is that people saw it that way.

. Social: VP Singh's divisive Mandal politics had left middle India aghast and angry. Since anti-Congress feelings were still high, people turned to the BJP for succour. 'Hindutva' was seen as a unifying force.

. Economic: With the world moving towards market economy, middle India was seeking liberation from the statist economic control-and-command structure that had stifled enterprise and restricted growth as well as wealth generation for more than four decades. On this front, too, the BJP offered an alternative economic policy and programme, based on deregulation and reform.

These coalesced into a burst of support for the BJP, taking it to power in 1998. What also helped was the spectre of political instability and Congress's inability to get its act together during the intervening years between the 1996 and 1998 general elections.

This tectonic shift in voter preference towards the BJP would not have been possible without the party's tactical adoption of 'Hindutva' as a component of its ideology (or, as the BJP calls it, 'political philosophy') along with 'Integral Humanism', which the party says "gives us a broader and modern perspective and tries to unshackle our minds from parochial concerns and past baggage".

Deendayal Upadhyaya's enunciation on this aspect was explicit:

“We have to discard the status quo mentality and usher in a new era. Indeed our efforts at reconstruction need not be clouded by prejudice or disregard for all that is inherited from our past. On the other hand, there is no need to cling to past institutions and traditions which have outlived their utility."

For the BJP, "A nation state based on Integral Humanism is a secular, non-theocratic state. Also, it repudiates statism and stands up for decentralisation to uphold the twin pillars of individual freedom and national interest."

To this was added 'Hindutva' in the late-1980s, strengthening the Hindu ethos of the party, making it more credible as a representative of Hindu aspirations, and setting it apart from the 'secular' centrist and left-of-centre political parties, especially the Congress.

Criticism of 'Hindutva' as a 'communal' idea was blunted by the Supreme Court's Constitution Bench judgement which, essentially, said that 'Hindutva' was/is India's 'way of life' and rooted in its civilisational and cultural history.
The Constitution Bench said,
"No precise meaning can be ascribed to the terms 'Hindu', 'Hindutva' and 'Hinduism'; and no meaning in the abstract can confine it to the narrow limits of religion alone, excluding the content of Indian culture and heritage. It is difficult to appreciate how in the face of these decisions, the term 'Hindutva' or 'Hinduism' per se, in the abstract, can be assumed to mean and be equated with narrow fundamentalist Hindu religious bigotry..."

The BJP's own articulation of 'Hindutva' is both pithy and sharp:
"Hindutva or Cultural Nationalism presents the BJP's concept of Indian nationhood. It must be noted that Hindutva is a nationalist, and not a religious or theocratic, concept."

Yet, as has been evident during this summer's general election, events and incidents have controverted this 'concept of Indian nationhood', and driven voters away from the BJP, especially in urban India and among the middle classes.

'Hindutva', as enunciated by the BJP, now carries less credibility as a unifying force. On the contrary, it is seen as Hindu bigotry, fanaticism, extremism and 'anti-modernism', and anti-social reform. The instinctive liberal impulse of upwardly mobile Hindus in towns and cities rejects this perception of 'Hindtuva'. We could argue that the perception is flawed and not grounded in reality, but as we all know, perception matters more than reality, especially in politics.

The following have undoubtedly contributed towards the creation of this perception:

. The anti-Christian violence in Orissa and Karnataka;
. The unrestrained utterances of Hindu organisations like the Bajrang Dal and the VHP, among many others.
. The moral policing of dubious outfits like Sri Ram Sene which promote lumpen power.
. The harsh talk of neophytes like Varun Gandhi.
. The inability of the BJP to respond in a cogent and coherent manner when under attack from the 'secular' camp.
. The failure to strategise how to achieve political objectives and adopt tactics accordingly.
. The BJP's proclivity to fudge issues rather than confront them.
. The confusion that has replaced clarity within the party about 'Hindutva', with diverse opinions diluting its essence and disfiguring the concept.
. The absence of any strucured consultative process between the BJP and the various units of the 'Sangh Parivar'.
. The subversion of organisational interests to promote individual interests.

It could well be asked that if Hindus want grievances related to their faith, for instance the threat to Hinduism and Hindu society posed by missionaries of the Christian church, whom should they turn to if not the BJP? And, should the BJP shy away from speaking up for Hindu society?

This is no doubt a tricky question. If the BJP is indifferent to Hindu angst and anger, it will be seen by Hindus as being no different from the 'secular' political class. But if it actively involves itself in the redressal process, it will rile liberal Hindu sensitivities.

Nor can the BJP just disown fraternal organisations like the VHP and the Bajrang Dal. Those who prescribe this course forget that at the grassroots level, there is tremendous interlinking between the supporters of the various Sangh organisations.

Which brings us to three related questions:

Does a possible solution lie in repudiating 'Hindutva' and retaining 'Integral Humanism' as the core ideological belief of the party, as is being suggested by some?

Or, should the BJP reframe the concept of 'Hindutva' and make it more meaningful for our times without 'secularising' the party?

Or, should the BJP revisit both 'Integral Humanism' [conceptualised in a particular social, political and economic context that does not obtain any more] and 'Hindutva' [similarly formulated in a particular social/political situation that no longer exists], cull out the most redeeming features of both, and draft a new charter to guide the party in the next decade?

I personally feel the time has come to opt for the third course of action. [My Sunday column in the Pioneer.] If adopted, it will ensure greater clarity, help purge the party of its gathered malcontents and give it a 'new look' with which 'new India' can connect.

The BJP would be reduced to nothing without an ideology of its own that is uniquely different from what is espoused by others. But ideology must lie at the core of a grand political strategy, which is different from what the Americans refer to as 'the vision thing' and of which some in the BJP (the courtiers) are enamoured because it promotes individuals over organisation.

Can the BJP come up with a grand political strategy in the next five years, more precisely, by 2014?

The answer to this question is linked to the issue of ideology. One without the other is meaningless, if not impossible.

[ravish]

The ideology of BJP its organisational weakness etc all have been accepted by a sizable number of voters of India. That is the precise reason that they have been able to get elected in more than 100 seats in Lok Sabha. The noise in the media today is due to the fact that the results have not been to the expectation of the BJP which was hoping to capture power and rule the country for the next five years.

Therefore, it is not that the ideology of BJP has been totally rejected by the electorate . Yes it has not been accepted by the majority of them and hence the result has been unfavourable to the party. Obviously, the leaders of the party will go through the reasons for this type of response from the electorate and will certainly try to fine tune its future policy as well as its image; perhaps by putting forward younger leaders and new ideas. In the process it will not be correct to assume that the party will totally abandon its present ideological stand. It may do a balancing act which may be a combination of several factors. If the electorate feels that the program is indeed attractive enough, they will certainly bring the BJP to power by voting for the NDA.

It is but only one of the problems that the BJP needs to resolve. From now till the next general election, to keep the NDA as one flock will be another difficult task. The JD(U) in its national executive meeting appears to have faced rough weather from its members , who were critical of the BJP. Therefore, it is not clear how many of the constituents of NDA will stick together with the BJP till the next general elections.

Before concluding I would also like to flag the point that the UPA will try to consolidate its position further during the next five years and as such dislodging it from power will be much more difficult for the NDA than it was during the 2009 General Elections. It will no longer have to work within the limitations of keeping the Left and later the SP on its side, in order to remain in power. It will command a massive majority, as large number of members, irrespective of party affiliation will try to be on the right side of the government.

Secondly, the new Government will try to steer away the masses from the conservative BJP outlook by certain measures which may be somewhat western oriented. This is inevitable due to the substantial presence of Ministers who have sufficient exposure to the West and to the liberal thoughts of US , UK and France. They may have a somewhat anglicised outlook which may get reflected in some of the policy changes that may be brought about in some of the spheres of public activity.

[Guest]

Ravish is talking bullshit. The election was rigged. Period.

[Guest]

<b><span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>How to tamper with voting machines! Demo by Amarinder Singh</span></b>

Prabhjot Singh
Tribune News Service (March 12, 2001)

Chandigarh, March 11, 2001
Can electronic voting machines (EVMs) be tampered with?

“Yes”, says Mr Amarinder Singh, president, Punjab Pradesh Congress Committee, supporting his assertion by giving a demonstration of how an EVM with a cleverly programmed chip installed in it can transfer votes polled by one candidate to another leaving no remnants of the original voting pattern.

“Convinced that these EVMs can be manipulated, we are going to make a presentation to the Chief Election Commissioner, Dr Manohar Singh Gill, in New Delhi next week and request him to revert to the original system of voting using ballot papers. If the commission does not listen to us, we will have no choice but to knock at the door of the judiciary to get EVMs out of the elections,” asserts Mr Amarinder Singh.


http://www.tribunei]http://www.tribuneindia.com/ 2001/20010312/ 2lead.gif
Capt Amarinder Singh demonstrates how a “fudged electronic voting machine” works. — A Tribune photo by Parvesh Chauhan

Mr Amarinder Singh carries a set of EVMs, including the control unit, which during elections remains with the presiding officer of a polling station, and gives a “demonstration of how the programmed chip transfers the votes of one candidate to another”.

“We got suspicious about what we call ‘sophisticated booth capturing’ when we found that there was 129 per cent increase in the votebank of Akalis at Nawanshahr, 100 per cent at Sunam and now 65 per cent at Majitha. The ruling party did well wherever EVMs were used while at other places, we did well. This we did by analysing all elections in the state since 1997,” says the PPCC chief, admitting that “my wife and Mr Jagmeet Singh Brar were elected to the Lok Sabha from constituencies where EVMs were used. But till that time, for the ruling Akali Dal, EVMs were something new and unique.

“But once they put their electronics experts on the job, they could immediately find a solution. Whatever the Election Commission says about EVMs is not true. The mother boards, after being removed from the EVMs, do not crash but work perfectly after being soldered back in the machine. Similarly, wave welding, which the Election Commission maintains is not available in India, is very much available at various places in the country,” asserts the Punjab Congress chief.

“We put our hardware and software experts on the job. They not only came out with different programmed chips but also revealed how these EVMs had been condemned the world over. Many countries, including Germany, France and the UK, had gone back to the conventional ballot paper polling by discarding the EVMs,” he said before giving a demonstration of how an EVM with a programmed chip installed in it “works wonders”.

“A programmed chip will not cost much. It is both timed and programmed to convert the votes polled by one candidate to those of another. It is only the final position that will remain on the hardchip or all three memories, thus leaving no scope for anyone to find out the original pattern of voting,” he says during the demonstration. “Seventeen votes are cast of which three go to candidate number 1, one each to candidates number two and three, 11 to candidate number 5 and one to candidate number 7. And after a while, when the votes are counted, the machine gives 13 votes to candidate number 1 and four to candidate number 2 and nothing to the rest.

“So each machine can be programmed to transfer, say, every third vote polled by the Congress to the Shiromani Akali Dal. In the Chamunda Devi area, which is a traditional Congress stronghold, our candidate lost during the recent Majitha Assembly byelection. This strengthens our conviction that EVMs were programmed.

“Let bygone be bygone. We do not want this ‘sophisticated booth-capturing’ to continue anymore. We do not want EVMs but want that in all future elections in Punjab the conventional ballot paper should be used.

“The EVMs remain in the custody of the government, thus leaving scope for their manipulation. We had requested the Election Commission that if it wants to use EVMs in Majitha, let it bring EVMs from any other state and use them. But our suggestion was turned down and the EVMs already with the election tehsildars in Punjab were used,” he added.

http://www.tribunei]http://www.tribuneindia.com/ 2001/20010312/ main4.htm

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-ravish+May 31 2009, 02:38 PM-->QUOTE(ravish @ May 31 2009, 02:38 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->The ideology of BJP its organisational weakness etc all have been accepted by a sizable number of voters of India. That is the precise reason that they have been able to get elected in more than 100 seats in Lok Sabha. The noise in the media today is due to the fact that the results have not been to the expectation of the BJP which was hoping to capture power and rule the country for the next five years.

.................
[right][snapback]98065[/snapback][/right]
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Ravishji,

What you said is partly correct. Truth is somewhat a mixed affair.

BJP in its current form is dead. Rigging or not, they'll go down to 60-70 seat count in next elections.

Arun Jaitely was calling the new cabinet as old wine in the new bottle. Seems like these clowns have learnt nothing. PEOPLE DON'T LIKE NAME CALLING. Advani paid for this.

I don't get it. How does it matter to a common man like me if the current cabinet is a carbon copy of the last one?

Its the oppositions job to explain us as why and how a particular minister is not able to handle his/her portfolio and how BJP as an worthy oppositions as set of alternative policies to offer.

Lets not get off tracked by shrill accusations of a rigged elections. Days of booth capturing are over.

But, in fact I believe many seats in this elections were rigged, but rigging is done only in those places where a 10-15% vote swing will change the results. Anything more stupid means the pattern will be caught.

This is the reason that the Con party was cocksure about the results and their cronies in media were toting the numbers.

But the final results surprised everyone, which means two things:

1. Con/UPA would have won without rigging.
2. There was a UPA/Con vote swing (culled from the regional parties shares + wrong BJP candidates + BJP infighting) which combined with rigging produced a landslide victory for Con.

So, the overall picture is somewhat bleak future for BJP.

I posted an assertion long ago in BRF that BJP is fighting against the media, biased and corrupt official machinery, brainwashed population and external interests.

I'll also add that the lunatic fringe elements of Hindu Right that draws from lowest dregs of the society will continue to discredit BJP and larger Sangh Parivar.

IMPORTANT POINTS.

1. Ideology is not an issue per se. Assertive Hindutva is not acceptable to all. We have to live with that.

2. We did a quick analysis of BJP vote share across constituencies in BRF. We found BJP could have easily added 60 more i.e. 170+ seats with better discipline, candidate selection and overall poll management.

3. BJP is non-existent in 200 odd constituencies. It has to go there. My debate with Mudy was on this account. BJP currently caters to a narrow slice of Hindu population.

4. Far right fringe has to be purged. BJP cannot afford to lose fence sitters, mostly youth.

It is very important that Bajrang Dal strong arm tactics is curbed and corrupt cadre and MP/MLA expelled.

RSS/BJP needs to regain the high moral ground very quickly.

My message is, forget secular show off, first strive be a all encompassing platform for all Hindus across class, caste and region. Votes will follow.

[HareKrishna]

<!--QuoteBegin-sroy+May 30 2009, 05:37 PM-->QUOTE(sroy @ May 30 2009, 05:37 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Your post come across as if you are not aware of Hindu customs elsewhere. Sorry, it is a loss for all of us, assuming you also vote for BJP like me.

Way to go there.[right][snapback]97971[/snapback][/right]<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats a good observation.
For exemple vaishnavas are misunderstud ,put in the same place as christi-islamics.They should be accepted just like shaiva,jains and folk hindus are accepted.India have very different doctrinal currents and many from hindutva seem to belive that an doctrinal unification is needed in order to have a comon front against terorist ideologies.
This is not me;im more like a vaishnava and even i dont agree whit shaivas ,jains or folk hindus in some points this doesnt mean that i would not offer my suport to them against ideologic terorism.I belive in the right of free thinking and i suport the right of shaivas,jains and folk hindus to have their free choise in religious and doctrinal matters.

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-HareKrishna+May 31 2009, 08:46 PM-->QUOTE(HareKrishna @ May 31 2009, 08:46 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-sroy+May 30 2009, 05:37 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(sroy @ May 30 2009, 05:37 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->

Your post come across as if you are not aware of Hindu customs elsewhere. Sorry, it is a loss for all of us, assuming you also vote for BJP like me.

Way to go there.
[right][snapback]97971[/snapback][/right]
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats a good observation.
For exemple vaishnavas are misunderstud ,put in the same place as christi-islamics.They should be accepted just like shaiva,jains and folk hindus are accepted.India have very different doctrinal currents and many from hindutva seem to belive that an doctrinal unification is needed in order to have a comon front against terorist ideologies.
This is not me;im more like a vaishnava and even i dont agree whit shaivas ,jains or folk hindus in some points this doesnt mean that i would not offer my suport to them against ideologic terorism.I belive in the right of free thinking and i suport the right of shaivas,jains and folk hindus to have their free choise in religious and doctrinal matters.
[right][snapback]98087[/snapback][/right]
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Well, I'm sure about Europe and North America, but India Vaishnavas are not confused to be non-Hindus.

My grandfather was a Vaishnava and had a large number of disciples. Not surprising, my native province is the birth place of Vaishnana.

[HareKrishna]

<!--QuoteBegin-sroy+May 31 2009, 09:03 PM-->QUOTE(sroy @ May 31 2009, 09:03 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Well, I'm sure about Europe and North America, but India Vaishnavas are not confused to be non-Hindus.

My grandfather was a Vaishnava and had a large number of disciples. Not surprising, my native province is the birth place of Vaishnana.
[right][snapback]98089[/snapback][/right]
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thats a good thing but some people around here belive that vaishnava doctrine is faked or just invented recently as a copy of christianity.Anyway no wonder as vaishnava philosophy was ignored in most of books that treated hinduism.Is true that some vaishnavas was influenced by ecumenism(just like almost all other branches of hinduism by the way).They simply dont understand the basic ideas of Ramanuja and Madhva.They will know then that hinduism is superior in any way comparative whit semitic ideas in the sense that vaishnava personalist doctrine is superior to personalist christian one ;and this is true in the impersonalist sense as smarta shows.
Hindu philosophical books are superior in deepness of the subject,poetical language,in the fact that the object is pushed to the extremes of the human mind until the last consenquences,in the vastity of the subject treated,in the very detailed analise and in emotional enrichment also.

[Capt M Kumar]

To say that the issues raised by those who are otherwise known world over as Hindu nationalist group were wrong, will be unfair to India.

After all, was the raising of the issue of Kashmiri Hindus wrong?

Or demanding revocation of POTA and stringent measures against terrorists?

Or the agitation for the Amarnath land and preservation of the unique world heritage and a symbol of faith like Ram Sethu?

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Opinion...588,curpg-1.cms

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-Capt M Kumar+May 31 2009, 09:38 PM-->QUOTE(Capt M Kumar @ May 31 2009, 09:38 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->After all, was the raising of the issue of Kashmiri Hindus wrong?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

BJP during its 6 years in office did nothing for Kashmiri Hindus. Instead, Haj subsidies were increased.

<!--QuoteBegin-Capt M Kumar+May 31 2009, 09:38 PM-->QUOTE(Capt M Kumar @ May 31 2009, 09:38 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Or demanding revocation of POTA and stringent measures against terrorists?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Was this an election issue? Did BJP displayed itself to be capable of taking strong stand on terrorism?

It failed to do anything after Op Parakram mobilization.

Kandahar story has come back to haunt BJP. BJP is not at fault in this case, but one wonders at the level of IQ of BJP top brass that they forgot to hit back with Rubiya Sayyed case.

<!--QuoteBegin-Capt M Kumar+May 31 2009, 09:38 PM-->QUOTE(Capt M Kumar @ May 31 2009, 09:38 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Or the agitation for the Amarnath land and preservation of the unique world heritage and a symbol of faith like Ram Sethu? <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Ram Setu project was launched by NDA govt, itself. However, neither this nor Amarnath case featured in election issues.

Why did BJP lose in Jammu (leave alone rest of India) if Amarnath case has a merit? We all know BJP screwed up Jammu with candidate selection.

[Guest]

Cause of BJP’s loss and Congress win in 2009 Polls

Modi and Advani made personal attacks on Congress leaders but failed to raise a single Hindutva issue except Varun, Jaitley and Dr Murli Manohar Joshi who however were not chief campaigners and got less media space;

Could not answer Kandahar properly and lost credibility as a tough party against jehad beside Advani saying he knew nothing of it and calling Jinnah secular cost us dearly;

BJP did not expose a single anti-Hindu activity of UPA government during elections though there were many;

Modi is hailed as a Hindu hero while all know that in reality in Gujarat riots of 2002 innocent Hindus and Muslims died while not a single Godhra Muslim hanged for train burning and similiarly inspite of being in government the killers of Lakshmanananda Saraswati neither caught nor punished;

Confused stand on Indo-US Nuke Deal;

Criticising Aam Aadmi friendly policies like NREGS, loan waiver to farmers, 6th Pay Commission while providing no alternative like more pro-poor and nationalist Swadeshi and failure to expose liberalisation and globalisation which put 77 per cent of Indians below poverty line or earning less than Rs. 20 per day and now creating worldwide recession. We need to abolish Income Tax and government must heavily invest in micro-credit and vocational education to poor, green energy and healthcare and infrastructure development, economically restrict FDI and FIIs to maximum 49 per cent in private sectors, strict price control of essential medicines and high import tariffs on non-essentials beside stoppage of subsidies and special treatments to minorities and end to taxing Hindu pilgrims and government loot of Temple money!

[brihaspati]

Anyone dismissing Vaishnavs show a complete lack of awareness of cultural history of India, and are probably also under remanat influence of Thaparite reconstructions. There were Vaishnavs before the "Bhakti" leaders, and there were non-Vishnu followers who could be considered "Bhakti". In any case the major Bhakti-Vaishnavas all arose and formulated their doctrine before the advent of European preachers proper, so unlikely to have been able to borrow from Christian dogma.

It is also a mistake in not being able to understand the Bhakti-Vaishanavas as political-cultural movement that arose out of intellectuals opting to give leadership of the "non-Muslim" community for survival. This introduced elements of political strategy and otherfeatures of a political mass movement, that can appear "Christian like" - which also had a similar circumstantial origin in the Jewish liberation struggle agaisnt the Romans - before it was usurped and reconstructed as an imperial doctrine.

I read the debate between Mudyji and SRoyji. It appears that the Durga-puja busting opinion comes from a very narrow urban experience. There are many festivals in the entire Gangetic belt, where public religious fests are also occasions for exotic and not-so-exotic activities being derided on the Durga Puja. Dussera and Diwali celebration, Chaat Puja in Bihar, Holi in general, and other many such regional festivals are observed differently in rural and urban areas. Singling out Durga Puja as the sole "criminal" in this regard is myopic to say the least.

I can describe explicitly practices around religious festivals and gatherings that will appear even more exotic and deridable that take place in UP-Bihar regions - sale of women for example. I was escorted out for my own safety from one such festival-fair somewhere on the north-Bihar-UP border. Let us not associate, unethical and criminal activities as being sourced by the religious festival itself, for that way, almost all "Hindu" festivals will become guilty.

Can we see why the "Hindu" cannot get united? Because it still cannot feel its far-flung cousins as family. If you think a family member is straying, you do not beat him to a pulp, but talk with him and engage with him. What is this chasing each other with big fat sticks?

Forget all these regional distrust, which takes the form of polemical accusations of deviations from the "pure" path. Everyone, has to search within himself for purity. This means each region which prides itself on its purity must look into th reality of that purity. If you cannot think of the neighbouring Hindu as your brother and of the same family - because he looks different, speaks a different tongue, and practises what I feel is strange, then forget advising BJP.

That neighbour could actually be derived from a source closer to "Hindu" roots as indicated in his complexion, could be speaking a tongue that is closer to Sanskrit and proto-Sanskrit compared to your own tingue which you yourself perhaps do not know that it has more foreign loan-words. That neighbour could actually be observing rituals of more core "Hindu" spiritual thinking that you yourself do not recognize any more.

Please, stop and think about what you yourself do, where it comes from, before trying to expel other Hindus from the flock because they appear to deviate from what you consider the pure path.

Only after we manage that unity and sense of belonging, can we show the audacity of advising the BJP. If you unify yourself, BJP will automatically rectify. If it does not it will be replaced automatically by some other party that does the job.