Medieval History

[Bodhi]

<!--QuoteBegin-Hauma Hamiddha+Apr 10 2009, 11:36 AM-->QUOTE(Hauma Hamiddha @ Apr 10 2009, 11:36 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->What is your take on the allA upaniShat -- it almost  seems to be one of those bIrbal jokes played on the padishaw.  The jagat-guru said: aham akabarho.asmi   <!--emo&--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
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Indeed it was taken as a joke by Akbar and his team, although its author, a certain brAhmaNa of the fourth veda from Andhra country, a convert to Islam and team-mate of bigoted badAyUnI, was serious about it. When the chap's works was presented to Akbar, he became a laughing stock in the court at the hands of bIrbar and faizI, and eventually faded out in oblivion. badAyUnI refers to the event.

badAyUnI with his team of translators also tried to deliberately distort Akbar's project of mahAbhArata-in-persian when he inserted some of Moslem theology (qayAmat and all) in the vana-parvan. As soon as Akbar discovered the mischief, he almost literally with a slipper in hand and choicest abuses on lips had badAyUnI chased away. badAyUnI records some of the innovative abuses Akbar used for him in his diary, while the remaining is left for our imagination to reconstruct.

[acharya]

ramana wrote:
Qasim incursion was defeated by 150 years after it began and was confined to small enclaves. It was the Islamised Turkic invasions from Ghazni onwards with the Sufi corps of converters that led to the current situation.

However Indian history books preach of a continuous Islamic dominance in North and Western India for political reasons.


R.C. Majumdar (editor). The History and Culture of the Indian People, Vol. 6, The Sultanate of Delhi, Bombay, 1960, p.xxiii, states, for example, with regard to the Delhi Sultanate:

The popular notion that after the conquest of Muhammad Ghauri, India formed a Muslim Empire under various dynasties, is hardly borne out by facts...barring the two very short lived empires under the Khaljis and Muhammad bin Tughlaq which lasted respectively, for less than twenty and ten years, there was no Turkish empire of India. The Delhi Sultanate, as the symbol of this empire, continued in name throughout the period under review [i.e., 1206—1526] but, gradually shorn of power and prestige, it was reduced to a phantom by the invasion of Timur at the end of the fourteenth century A.D.

[ramana]

My question.

Is it correct to call those sultanates, empires or were they really kingdoms?

[acharya]

<!--QuoteBegin-ramana+Apr 30 2009, 06:10 AM-->QUOTE(ramana @ Apr 30 2009, 06:10 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->My question.

Is it correct to call those sultanates, empires or were they really kingdoms?
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Technically should be called Kingdoms. Some should be called just Zamindars.

It was small time gangsters who wrote fancy stories and fancy accounts of their exploits

[Bharatvarsh]

Bodhi or HH, i have a question about Afghanistan.

The current population of Aghanistan is made of Pathans & some other groups, all of these groups languages seem to be more close to Persian than Sanskrit.

My question is the current population descendants (full or partial) of the ancient Hindus & Buddhists who lived there or are they groups from Iran etc that moved in with all the original Hindu/Buddhist population being wiped out?

If it is the latter then I wonder at what time the last of the Hindus & Buddhists were killed off in that area & what kind of languages were spoken there when that area was under Hindu control.

[Hauma Hamiddha]

Right from the vedic period Afghanistan was a border zone between Indo-Aryan and Iranian. These languages were both seen interacting in that region as supported by Iranian influences on the vedic dialect there and vice versa on Avestan. Thus we had a continuous speech of Vedic Sanskrit then Classical Sanskrit closely juxtaposed with Old Iranian and then Middle Iranian dialects. Some people have even claimed that the vedic ethnonym paktha is related to the modern ethonym pakhtu of the dominant tribe in the region. In the post-Sanskrit development we have a well known Prakrit known as Gandhari that was quite comparable to the literary Prakrits of inner India. This seems to have further evolved into different vulgar offshoots that might find representation in the surviving Indo-Aryan tongues of the region. A variant of Gandhari spread through central Asia and is called Niye Prakrit. Even after invasion of Mah'd Ghaznavi Sanskrit did not die off entirely because we notice that he minted Sanskrit coins imitating the Hindus he had just overrun. But with the subsequent Jihads of various Mohammedans the Indo-Aryan languages gradually shrunk and attained their present status.

The post Prakrit IA languages from gandhAra that still survive of which we have a record are:
lahndI - close to kashmiri
khetrAnI - North of Baloch
poThohArI - Ravalpindi and further north
Hindko- Peshavar and North
Shina -upper Indus Swat Gilgit
BashkarIk/gAwrI -Kohistan
maiyA
kanyawAlI -- all further north TSP-Afg border zone
gawar-bAtI -- south Afghan near Bashgal river.
ningalAmI, gR^ingalI, shumAshtI kaTArqala, sAvI, tirAhI all extinct or nearly extinct distributed throughout Afghan and remnant of the old Gandhari
pashaI- gAndhArI descendant in Lamghan region
kalaSha- the language of the Kalasha who were denuded by the jihads of Timur, Akbar, Jahangir and finally by Abdur-Rahman Khan the 1800s precursor of the modern Talibs.

There are additionally the Nuristani family of languages for which look up:
http://users.sedona.net/~strand/Nuristan...anis1.html

Evils of Islam continue to destroy whatever remains of Indo-Aryan presence in those regions.

[Bharatvarsh]

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Title:  Foreign notices of South India from Megasthenes to Ma Huan
Authors:  Sastri, K. A. Nilakanta Ed.

http://library.du.ac.in/dspace/handle/1/3604<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Title:  Colas
Authors:  Sastri, K.A. Nilakanta

http://library.du.ac.in/dspace/handle/1/3987

Title:  Studies in Cola history and administration
Authors:  Sastri, K.A.Nilakanta

http://library.du.ac.in/dspace/handle/1/3605<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

[acharya]

HH - Please contribute


Devgiri -> Kakatiya -> Vijaynagara -> Shivaji -
1294 1336 1645

1187 - 1294 Devagiri Yadava Kingdom
1083 - 1323 Kakatiya
1326 - 1350 Kakatiya under Musunuri Nayakas
1336 - 1646 Vijaya Nagara

Hindu consciousness moved along the lines.

Who passed the baton to Devagiri needs to be explored also.

[Bharatvarsh]

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Constitution 1,000 years ago

T.S.SUBRAMANIAM

A perfect electoral system existed, inscriptions found in Uthiramerur reveal.

Photos: S. Thanthoni
<img src='http://www.thehindu.com/fr/2008/07/11/images/2008071151250303.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
OUTSTANDING DOCUMENT: The mantapa of the Vaikuntaperumal temple.

It may be hard to believe that nearly 1,100 years ago, a village had a perfect electoral system and a written Constitution prescribing the mode of elections. It was inscribed on the walls of the village assembly (grama sabha mandapa), which was a re ctangular structure made of granite slabs. “This inscription, dated around 920 A.D. in the reign of Parantaka Chola, is an outstanding document in the history of India,” says Dr. R. Nagaswamy, former Director, Tamil Nadu Department of Archaeology, referring to Uthiramerur in Chingleput district.

“It is a veritable written Constitution of the village assembly that functioned 1,000 years ago,” Dr. Nagaswamy says in his book, “Uthiramerur, the Historic Village in Tamil Nadu.” The book, in both Tamil and English, has been published by the Tamil Arts Academy, Chennai.

Dr. Nagaswamy says: “It [the inscription] gives astonishing details about the constitution of wards, the qualification of candidates standing for elections, the disqualification norms, the mode of election, the constitution of committees with elected members, the functions of [those] committees, the power to remove the wrong-doer, etc…” <img src='http://www.thehindu.com/fr/2008/07/11/images/2008071151250302.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
And that is not all. “On the walls of the mandapa are inscribed a variety of secular transactions of the village, dealing with administrative, judicial, commercial, agricultural, transportation and irrigation regulations, as administered by the then village assembly, giving a vivid picture of the efficient administration of the village society in the bygone ages.” The villagers even had the right to recall the elected representatives if they failed in their duty!

It has a 1,250-year history

Uthiramerur has a 1,250-year history. It is situated in Kanchipuram district, about 90 km from Chennai. The Pallava king Nandivarman II established it around 750 A.D. It did exist earlier as a brahmin settlement. It was ruled by the Pallavas, the Cholas, the Pandyas, the Sambuvarayars, the Vijayanagara Rayas and the Nayaks. It has three important temples, the Sundara Varadaraja Perumal temple, the Subramanya temple and the Kailasanatha temple. Plans are under way for the conservation and restoration of the Kailasanatha temple, which is in ruins.

All the three temples have numerous inscriptions — those of the great Raja Raja Chola (985-1015 A.D.), his able son, Rajendra Chola and the Vijayanagar emperor Krishnadeva Raya. Both Rajendra Chola and Krishnadeva Raya visited Uthiramerur.

Uthiramerur, built as per the canons of the agama texts, has the village assembly mandapa exactly at the centre and all the temples are oriented with reference to the mandapa.

R. Vasanthakalyani, Chief Epigraphist-cum-Instructor and R. Sivanandam, epigraphist, both belonging to the Tamil Nadu Department of Archaeology, said that while village assemblies might have existed prior to the period of Parantaka Chola, it was during his period that the village administration was honed into a perfect system through elections. “About 1,100 years ago, during the period of Paranataka Chola, Uthiramerur had an elected village panchayat system, which was a step ahead of the modern day democratic system,” she said.

According to Dr. Sivanandam, there were several places in Tamil Nadu where inscriptions are available on temple walls about the prevalence of village assemblies. These villages included Manur near Tirunelveli, Tiruninravur near Chennai, Manimangalam near Tambaram, Dadasamudram near Kanchipuram, Sithamalli and Thalaignayiru near Thanjavur, Jambai near Tirukovilur and Ponnamaravathy near Pudukottai. “But it is at Uthiramerur on the walls of the village assembly (mandapa) itself, that we have the earliest inscriptions with complete information about how the elected village assembly functioned,” said Dr. Sivanandam. It is learnt that the entire village, including the infants, had to be present at the village assembly mandapa at Uthiramerur when the elections were held, pointed out Vasanthakalyani. Only the sick and those who had gone on a pilgrimage were exempt.

<img src='http://www.thehindu.com/fr/2008/07/11/images/2008071151250301.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
The Tamil inscriptions elaborate on the election procedure followed several centuries ago.

There were committees for the maintenance of irrigation tanks, roads, to provide relief during drought, testing of gold and so on. Sivanandam himself has written a book in Tamil called, “The Archaeological Handbook of Kanchipuram district,” (published by the Tamil Nadu Department of Archaeology in 2008) in which he says the original sabha mandapa’s superstructure was made of timber and bricks. After the superstructure collapsed and only the base of the mandapa made of granite slabs remained, Kulotunga Chola I built a Vishnu temple on the base towards the end of the 11th century.

The village sabha mandapa, with its invaluable inscriptions, is now called Vaikuntaperumal temple. Dr. Nagaswamy says: “The village assembly of Uttaramerur drafted the Constitution for the elections. The salient features were as follows: the village was divided into 30 wards, one representative elected for each. Specific qualifications were prescribed for those who wanted to contest. The essential criteria were age limit, possession of immovable property and minimum educational qualification. Those who wanted to be elected should be above 35 years of age and below 70…”

Only those who owned land, that attracted tax, could contest. Another interesting stipulation, according to Dr. Nagaswamy, was that such owners should have possessed a house built on legally-owned site (not on public poromboke). A person serving in any of the committees could not contest again for the next three terms, each term lasting a year. Elected members, who suffered disqualification, were those who accepted bribes, misappropriated others’ property, committed incest or acted against public interest.
http://pseudosecularism.blogspot.com/2008/...-years-ago.html<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

[Bharatvarsh]

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->February 2, 1939                         Systems of Governance
Nowadays people want the modern type of democracy- the parliamentary form of government. The parliamentary system is doomed. It has brought Europe to its present sorry pass…. [In India] one should begin with the old Panchayat system in the villages and then work up to the top. The Panchayat system and the guilds are more representative and they have a living contact with people; they are part of the people’s ideas. On the contrary, the parliamentary system with local bodies-the municipal councils-is not workable: these councils have no living contact with the people; the councilors make only platform speeches and nobody knows what they do for three or four years; at the end they reshuffle and rearrange the whole thing, making their own pile during their period of power.

http://www.esamskriti.com/essay-chapters/I...urobindo-5.aspx<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Water is one of the more serious problem areas of India and many other parts of the world. There was an ancient Indian system of talabs (water tanks) in every village. They were designed to collect and store rainwater for irrigation and for drinking. It was a function of the village panchayat to maintain and administer these water tanks. However, under colonial rule, village governance was subverted or abandoned, since the goal was to maximize tax collection through a network of British-appointed “district collectors”. As native social structures were abandoned, many talabs went into disuse or misuse. Today, satellite pictures show only traces of what was once a massive network of man-made lakes.

http://www.indianscience.org/<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

[ramana]

Bharatvarsh, the second KAN book on administration during the Cholas gives the very same details. I dont see why the TN archaeologists had to rewrtie the old knowldege. In fact KAN's book gives elaborate details about the organization of civil administration.

[ramana]

I am looking for more inof on this
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->The vigor of South India Badami-Chalukyas was shown when <b>the Arabs tried to move into south after winning victories in Sindh. They were repelled by another Badami Chalukya, Pulakesin in the reign of Vikramaditya II in 733. This defeat put back Islam by four hundred years.</b>
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Wiki on Chalukyas of Badami does not give any info.

[Guest]

Ramana:

In A.D. 711, Hajjaj, Arab governor of Iraq sent his son-in-law Muhammad ibn Qasim to invade Sindh. Sindh was then ruled by a brahmana king Dahir (or Dahar). The capital was captured, citizens massacred, women & children imprisoned & temples ransacked. Dahir met with 50,000 warriors in the battle, he died in the fighting. Dahir is supposed to have fought courageously and gallantly. His widow then took over what ever army remained and defended the fort till their provisions failed. Then the women chose death instead of dishonor, they lighted fire in the courtyard and threw themselves and their children into fire - their husbands watched and after the fire devored the women and kids, the men rushed with swords to meet the invaders eventually to their death. R.C.Majumdar notes before this battle the treachery of Buddhists played no small part in some campaigns to reach Dahar. There is treachery involved in the capture of Multan too. A traitor pointed out water-supply of Multan to Muhammad.

So that is the setting of Sindh...Now on to Pulakesiraja.

Later, Caliph Hisham (A.D. 724-43) appointed al-Junayad as the governor of Sind. Around A.D. 725 Junayad's forces invaded and defeated rulers of Kachchellas of Cutch, Maitrakas of Saurashtra, Chavotakas of South Rajasthan, Saindhavas of Bhumilka in West Kathiawar, Mauryas of Chitor and Gurjaras of Bhillamala. Then the forces proceeded towards Deccan with the entire Southern and Northern India seeming to fall to the Arabs. Some where between A.D. 731 and A.D. 738 Pulakesi defeated these forces. Pulakesi was a Chalukyan prince of Lata in the southern part of Gujarat, near Navasarika. Lata was the northern-most province of Chalukyas. Dantidurga, a Rashtrakuta King was known to have helped Pulakesi. This defeat of the Arabs is important because this is the deepest part of India that the Caliphate ever penetrated.

Pratihara Nagabhata I of Avanti (present Malwa) (A.D. 730-56) is credited for driving out the Muslims out of the area.

I think Nagabhata operated from the Northern-Eastern side (Ujjain) and Pulakesi operated from the Western-Southern area. Thus the North and South were saved.

Subsequently the Arabs are driven back till the Indus river.

Now let us see what people say about the defeat of Arabs by Pulikesi.
1) R.C.Majumdar says "Southern India was thus saved".
2) D.P. Dikshit says "If the Arabs had been successful, probably it would have meant the end of Hindu rule in Western India and complete extinction of their power."
3) Vikramaditya II the King then bestowed the title "the repeller of the unrepellable" on Pulakesi. This shows the power of the marauders.

Notes:
1) The Arabs were refered by the term 'Tajika'. There is a branch of Astrology related to this term.
2) Lata a.k.a Lata Desh or Lar Desh is believed to be Ptolemy's Larike that included Broach, Ujain and Nasik. Navasari was the capital of Lata.

Source: Several of the sources use the 'Gurjara Grants' of the time.
0) INTERNET :-)))
1) The Royal Gurjars by Nau Nihal Singh
2) The End of Jihad State by Khalid Yahya Blankinship
3) Ancient India, R.C.Majumdar
4) A History of South Inda, KAN Sastri
5) Gazetter of the Bombay Presidency - Khandesh.
6) Political History of the Chalukyas - D.P.Dikshit.

[ramana]

Very good job SwamyG. Well done. Want to make it an article?

[Guest]

meeru chepandi, em cheyali? I have never written, will be glad to attempt one for you.

[ramana]

I asked Airavat to help. lets see.

[Bodhi]

<!--QuoteBegin-Swamy G+Jun 5 2009, 06:18 AM-->QUOTE(Swamy G @ Jun 5 2009, 06:18 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Notes:
1) The Arabs were refered by the term 'Tajika'. There is a branch of Astrology related to this term.
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If I remember correctly, even lAmA tArAnAtha uses the term tAjika-mata or somethink like this for islam in his hagiography.

Swamy also see a related article by HH at mAnasataraMgiNI about early islamic invasions of India, before the well known ibn-qAsim one.

[acharya]

http://satyabhashnam.blogspot.com/2007/09/...ghout-ages.html

[ramana]

<!--QuoteBegin-acharya+Jun 8 2009, 04:18 PM-->QUOTE(acharya @ Jun 8 2009, 04:18 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->http://satyabhashnam.blogspot.com/2007/09/...ghout-ages.html
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Can we have those maps put ont ppt with short description of the text and loaded into scribd?

[acharya]

<!--QuoteBegin-ramana+Jun 8 2009, 04:53 AM-->QUOTE(ramana @ Jun 8 2009, 04:53 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-acharya+Jun 8 2009, 04:18 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(acharya @ Jun 8 2009, 04:18 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->http://satyabhashnam.blogspot.com/2007/09/...ghout-ages.html
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Can we have those maps put ont ppt with short description of the text and loaded into scribd?
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Can you ask for copyrights from the author