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M K Gandhi And The Gandhian Legacy
Some info on Dalit Saviour Ambedkar:

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->That he staunchly opposed the Congress requires no more proof than the fact that Ambedkar was Ambedkar...his vitriolic statements against Gandhi and Nehru in fact serve as the License for Kanshi Ram and Mayawati to do the same. His statements are sometimes too vitriolic for a man of his perceived stature... things like " The Soceity is ruled by the Brahmin and the Bania..." ostensibly referring to Nehru and Gandhi and goes on to proclaim that The Bania is like a blood sucking creature on the society.

Today Ambedkar is seen as a messiah of the Dalits but then he was nothing more than a stooge of the British... an instrument of the British Policy of divide and rule. All this so amply clear when Lithglow talks of 'Strengthening the hands of A so that it may be to our advantage'. Can you believe that this messiah was never an elected representative of the Dalits. He could win only one of the reserved seats(Leave alone the General Seats) in the Provincial elections when the Congress was repeatedly sweeping the polls before and after Independence. Ambedkar was appointed by only the British as a representative of the Dalits so that he could proclaim in the round table conferences that Gandhi and Nehru did not speak for the Dalits when Jinnah was proclaiming that Gandhi and Nehru did not speak for the Muslims. In fact Ambedkar joined Jinnah in his 'Deliverance Day' Celebrations when the Congress ministries resigned in 1939.

http://www.indolink.com/Book/book8.html<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->"Right till 1946-that is, till just a year before India became independent--Ambedkar was a vehement opponent of the Freedom Movement, indeed of freedom being given to India at all. He claimed with pride that it is the people whom he said he represented who had conquered India for the British. He said that he was supporting the demand for Pakistan because this would mean that the British would continue to stay in India. The freedom movement is a sham, a ruse, he proclaimed, Gandhi an agent to perpetuate the Nazi-like suppression of the masses, and the British Viceroy the saviour of the depressed classes. The British put "suggestions" to him, and reported to each other how well he had acted in accordance with those "suggestions" they urged each other to strengthen-his hands, to put him in positions that would give greater weight to the theses and formulae he was putting forth, theses and formulae which served British imperial interests to the dot. It was because his association with the British was known to all that he and his party were wiped out in every single election he fought--in 1937, 1946, 1952. But today he is Bharat Ratna.

Whereas Gandhiji taught that the way to reform is for each individual, each group to make demands on itself, Ambedkar reared his followers into a demand-and-denounce brigade, he denounced "the cultivation of private virtues" as worse than useless. Whereas Narayan Guru, himself from an oppressed caste that was not just untouchable but unapproachable, attained the highest spiritual states, thereby acquired unquestioned authority, and transformed society from within the tradition. Ambedkar heaped calumny on that tradition, and eventually proclaimed a "Buddhism" that had nothing to do with the teachings or life of the Buddha. The legacy of one kind of reformer--of Narayan Guru, of Gandhiji-- is a people transformed and ennobled, the legacy of the other is a people embittered and wallowing in backwardness. The legacy of one is a society at peace and in harmony, that of the other is a society riven. The legacy of one is enlightened and serene discourse, the legacy of the other is intimidation as argument, assault as proof. But today scarcely anyone outside Kerala even knows about Narayan Guru, and Ambedkar's statues outnumber those of Gandhiji.

What are the consequences when a society repudiates its own Gods and idols and adopts instead those of the ones who would put it down, who would tear it up?

A major reconstruction of events in our freedom movement, an exhumation of startling facts--the stratagems of the British, and of their associates, the sacrifices of Gandhiji and the nationalists. A withering examination of the myth that Ambedkar wrote the constitution.

A must for understanding our times, for strengthening our country."

https://www.vedamsbooks.com/no12359.htm<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Bharatvarsh+Nov 27 2005, 09:13 AM-->QUOTE(Bharatvarsh @ Nov 27 2005, 09:13 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->ask an andhraite about tipu sultan and haider ali and see what they have to say.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Tippu was not even from Andhra, seems like you have no point so keep rambling.

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->also ask a dalit about ambedkar and see what they have to say. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why don't you enlighten us?, when Shourie wrote the book there were all these protests but in private the non Mahar's admitted that what Shourie said was true, Ambedkar couldn't even win any election since Harijans never even voted for him, just because you read p-sec history and internalise their every myth does not mean it beomes true history.
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no tipu wasnt and haider ali neither.
yet they think of them as some sort of saviour.


ambedkar gave a voice to the voiceless and since he drafted the constitution i am surmising that he was largely instrumental in incorporating the positive discrimination scheme that we have (and which i support, except for scheduled tribes... because if the AIT is wrong than the tribes were not oppressed)
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->anyways ty for vindicating me.... that there was not much opression of bengal under muslims (due to willful conversions to such an extent that bengal had the max camel jockey population at the time of independence)<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
wilful conversions they are even though I highlighted numerous cases of forced conversions and slavery that was imposed and people were giving their sons to become eunuchs to escape the brunt of the revenue, I am sure Romila Thapar and the camp will be very proud to know that you think so.
<!--QuoteBegin-Bharatvarsh+Nov 27 2005, 09:29 AM-->QUOTE(Bharatvarsh @ Nov 27 2005, 09:29 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->anyways ty for vindicating me.... that there was not much opression of bengal under muslims (due to willful conversions to such an extent that bengal had the max camel jockey population at the time of independence)<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
wilful conversions they are even though I highlighted numerous cases of forced conversions and slavery that was imposed and people were giving their sons to become eunuchs to escape the brunt of the revenue, I am sure Romila Thapar and the camp will be very proud to know that you think so.
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any which way you cut it, we are on the same side on this one - there wasnt much of opression or murder in bengal by the muslims.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->no tipu wasnt and haider ali neither.
yet they think of them as some sort of saviour.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You provide us proof instead of providing antecdotes about asking andhraites and the rest of the rubbish, even if people think so it only shows the brainwashing power of Doordarshan, in Bengal a lot of children are being commie brainwashed.

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->ambedkar gave a voice to the voiceless and since he drafted the constitution i am surmising that he was largely instrumental in incorporating the positive discrimination scheme that we have (and which i support, except for scheduled tribes... because if the AIT is wrong than the tribes were not oppressed) <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ya keep eulogising him and you talk as if drafting the constituition deserves special attention just because Ambedkar happened to do it when infact numerous people worked on the constituition itself, from shouries book:

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Shourie also takes a lot of pains to prove that Ambedkar was not the sole author of the constitution and that after all a magnificent document like the constitution could not have had a single author. He proves this by thoroughly describing how the constitution was framed. Ambedkar was the chairman of the Drafting committee whose purpose was to put into words whatever the constituent assembly thought. The ideas were mainly that of the Congress leadership. Shourie also demonstrated how the final constitution was so very different from what Ambedkar had all along advocated.

Nevertheless one gets the feeling that this part of the book is a bit too long and unnecessary when Ambedkar himself had never proclaimed that he was the sole author of the constitution and he had infact issued many disclaimers to the contrary.

http://www.indolink.com/Book/book8.html<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->The second part of the book traces the actual drafting of the constitution. Besides pointing out the fact that the constitution as it exists today is a variation on the drafts authored by KM Munshi and others, Shourie also cites from officially printed books on the debates in the drafting committee itself to drive home the point that if anything, Ambedkar was nothing more than an impassive and helpless bystander - a figurehead, if there ever was one.

http://www.agni.org/braindump/entries/00000071.htm<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
By the same token, todays positive discrimination towards Muslims must also be laid at his door step.
<!--QuoteBegin-Bharatvarsh+Nov 27 2005, 09:39 AM-->QUOTE(Bharatvarsh @ Nov 27 2005, 09:39 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->no tipu wasnt and haider ali neither.
yet they think of them as some sort of saviour.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You provide us proof instead of providing antecdotes about asking andhraites and the rest of the rubbish, even if people think so it only shows the brainwashing power of Doordarshan, in Bengal a lot of children are being commie brainwashed.

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->ambedkar gave a voice to the voiceless and since he drafted the constitution i am surmising that he was largely instrumental in incorporating the positive discrimination scheme that we have (and which i support, except for scheduled tribes... because if the AIT is wrong than the tribes were not oppressed) <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ya keep supporting him and you talk as if drafting the constituition deserves special attention just because Ambedkar happened to do it when infact numerous people worked on the constituition itself, from shouries book:

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Shourie also takes a lot of pains to prove that Ambedkar was not the sole author of the constitution and that after all a magnificent document like the constitution could not have had a single author. He proves this by thoroughly describing how the constitution was framed. Ambedkar was the chairman of the Drafting committee whose purpose was to put into words whatever the constituent assembly thought. The ideas were mainly that of the Congress leadership. Shourie also demonstrated how the final constitution was so very different from what Ambedkar had all along advocated.

Nevertheless one gets the feeling that this part of the book is a bit too long and unnecessary when Ambedkar himself had never proclaimed that he was the sole author of the constitution and he had infact issued many disclaimers to the contrary.

http://www.indolink.com/Book/book8.html<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->The second part of the book traces the actual drafting of the constitution. Besides pointing out the fact that the constitution as it exists today is a variation on the drafts authored by KM Munshi and others, Shourie also cites from officially printed books on the debates in the drafting committee itself to drive home the point that if anything, Ambedkar was nothing more than an impassive and helpless bystander - a figurehead, if there ever was one.

http://www.agni.org/braindump/entries/00000071.htm<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
By the same token, todays positive discrimination towards Muslims must also be laid at his door step.
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thats possible... brainwashing goes a long way towards swaying opinions.

still mysore and a.p. are rather proud of tipu sultan as some sort of patriot who fought the poms and not as another muslim oppressor and thas since a long time, long before tv and crap.


even if ambedkar's contribution is not as huge as its made out to be, and though he had brit backing (remember he didnt back the oppressed cos the poms backed him... its the other way round.. the poms backed him cos he championed the oppressed and thus could potentially divide india), i cant think of very many others who helped to uplift the oppressed castes of india (and b4 you jump to conclusions i am a swaraswat brahmin and i support positive discrimination) as much as ambedkar did.


as for positive discrimination for muslims nd x-ians - thats just out of question.
they were never oppressed - they were the oppressor.
the +ve discrimination for these 2 secondary abrahamic religions is a card that the political parties pulled out i believe, not ambedkar.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->thats possible... brainwashing goes a long way towards swaying opinions.

still mysore and a.p. are rather proud of tipu sultan as some sort of patriot who fought the poms and not as another muslim oppressor.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And you didn't show us any documentary evidence to back up this claim, the persons whom andhraites really respect are Sri Krishna Deva Raya and Alluri Sita Rama Raju, I must know since I am from Andhra, so until you have documentary evidence stop propagating rubbish.

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->even if ambedkar's contribution is not as huge as its made out to be, and though he had brit backing (remember he didnt back the oppressed cos the poms backed him... its the other way round.. the poms backed him cos he championed the oppressed and thus could potentially divide india), i cant think of very many others who helped to uplift the oppressed castes of india (and b4 you jump to conclusions i am a swaraswat brahmin and i support positive discrimination) as much as ambedkar did.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In what way did he do anything, harijans are still discriminated against, you being a Brahmin does not mean anything (I know plenty of self hating Brahmins and there was one Tamil Brahmin who was even defending the Dravidian parties). If you don't know of any other person who did as much as Ambedkar to uplift lower castes then maybe its time you read up some non p-sec history, Sri Narayan Guru was from the Ezhava caste in Kerala who were considered low caste and he single handedly uplifted them and today they are no longer untouchables and are respected throughout Kerala and Sri Narayan Guru is like the patron saint of Kerala.

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->as for positive discrimination for muslims nd x-ians - thats just out of question. they were never oppressed - they were the oppressor.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes so Ambedkar must not have drafted article 30 and other such articles favouring positive discrimination towards Muslims (this is assuming that he made majot contributions to the constituition) so today's positive discrimination towards so called minorities can be laid at his door step.
<!--QuoteBegin-Bharatvarsh+Nov 27 2005, 09:57 AM-->QUOTE(Bharatvarsh @ Nov 27 2005, 09:57 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->thats possible... brainwashing goes a long way towards swaying opinions.

still mysore and a.p. are rather proud of tipu sultan as some sort of patriot who fought the poms and not as another muslim oppressor.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And you didn't show us any documentary evidence to back up this claim, the persons whom andhraites really respect are Sri Krishna Deva Raya and Alluri Sita Rama Raju, I must know since I am from Andhra, so until you have documentary evidence stop propagating rubbish.

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->even if ambedkar's contribution is not as huge as its made out to be, and though he had brit backing (remember he didnt back the oppressed cos the poms backed him... its the other way round.. the poms backed him cos he championed the oppressed and thus could potentially divide india), i cant think of very many others who helped to uplift the oppressed castes of india (and b4 you jump to conclusions i am a swaraswat brahmin and i support positive discrimination) as much as ambedkar did.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In what way did he do anything, harijans are still discriminated against, you being a Brahmin does not mean anything (I know plenty of self hating Brahmins and there was one Taml Brahmin who was even defending Periyar). If you don'w know of any other person who did as much as Ambedkar to uplift lower castes then maybe its time you read up some non p-sec history, Sri Narayan Guru was from the Ezhava caste in Kerala who were considered untouchables and he single handedly uplifted them and today they are no longer untouchables and are respected throughout Kerala and Sri Narayan Guru is like the patron saint of Kerala.

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->as for positive discrimination for muslims nd x-ians - thats just out of question. they were never oppressed - they were the oppressor.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes so Ambedkar must not have drafted article 30 and other such articles favouring positive discrimination towards Muslims (this is assuming that he made majot contributions to the constituition) so today's positive discrimination towards so called minorities can be laid at his door step.
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ok boss, the lower castes got the positive discrimination law out of thin air, and all andhraites are exactly like you and never like haider ali (just like all bengalis are exactly like me and never support the cpim) and btw, i am not a self hating brahmin at all (the social justice in wb being far higher than most other states, esp the up-bihar belt which remains a stronghold of castism... hence i havent much guilt)... just that i see positive discrimation as a move that has...well, a lot of positives.
Some of the posts were interesting in the above conversation. But I think we have moved significantly away from the thread topic.

How about opening a thread for Ambedkar ?
What I meant in point #4 in my post earlier was that it was essential for the Brits to convince the world and themselves that their colonizing mission was ethical. They put in a lot of effort to prove that they were being ethical. One can observe the same kind of dynamics in Iraq. I guess it is an White-Anglo-Saxon-Protestant trait.

What MKG did was attack this logic. He attacked the logic that was trying to prove that without colonialism the natives were uncouth animals. Men like Ambedkar, Raja Rammohan Roy etc bought into this and to a huge extent people still buy this line. DeSouza is a prime example.

And in the meantime he did a lot of nation-building, a consensus and a momentum for independence.

Where he lost was with Islam. His techniques only worked with savages with pretensions about being civilized but didnt work with savages without such pretensions.
Shaurya said <!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->As far as the INC being a British plan, I did say they managed this pretty poorly that they lost control of it in a single generation ! The British are not known for such shoddy management of affairs. My response to you is sarcastic becuause I do not find merit in your assertions. I will be more than glad to discuss anything more than what you feel about it. I have never read anywhere that the INC started as a british plan! <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Obviously the Brits are not going to advertise that the INC at least in the first few decades after it was founded, was their vehicle for controlling the future direction of the freedom movement and while Congress was in power for most of the time of post Independent India,they would be hardly likely to admit that the venerable INC was a plant by the Brits. That would certainly take the shine of the official version of Indian history that the Congress was primarily instrumental in securing India's freedom.

The genesis and evolution of British policy towards the Indian subcontinent(later to be referred to as South Asia) and how the Brits crystalllized their stance towards India in the nineteenth century makes for interesting reading

In a recent book by Chandrasekhar Das Gupta (War and diplomacy in Kashmir) he makes it clear that Mountbatten called the shots in the Kashmir issue even after August 15, 1947 and prevented India from overrunning Kashmir and dealing a deathblow to the infant monstrosity called Pakistan. That this was the case is of course no surprise to most discerning Indians who have long since abandoned the starry eyed nonsense about Mountbatten being a friend of India. see for instance the relevant archived thread in BR.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/phpBB2/vie....php?t=238

The question is why did Britain ( and later the US) go to such extraordinary lengths to prop up a frankenstein like Pakistan. It is commonly assumed in India that it was Nehru's tilt towards the FSU (former soviet union) that resulted in the tilt of the west towards the terrorist state of Pakistan (TSP), That may explain the US stance after Hungary and 1956 , but it does not explain why the brits took such an anti Indian stance right from 1947. After all the first GG of India , at the express request of the Indians, was Mountbatten (who outwardly claimed to despise Jinnah) and the chiefs of staff were all British till 1950, and Nehru relied extensively on Sir PMS Blackett(who was almost a scientific adviser to the GOI) till his death, on the formation of Indian science policy and the development of Nuclear weapons. These are not the actions of a man who was anti west much less distrusted them. The chronology of events certainly does not bear out such a hypothesis as the tilt by the Anglo/US alliance predates the so called tilt by Nehru towards the FSU. No, there was more to it than that.


The real answer, as far as I can discern, goes back to the aftermath of the 1857 uprising. I have attempted to answer this question after doing some extensive research (jointly with acharya). The analysis is summarized in a presentation we recently made at a joint meeting of BR and IF, titled the South Asia File . see for instance my post dated Nov 24 2005, 08:06 AM in the India US thread

http://www.india-forum.com/forums/index.ph...opic=1090&st=30

The details including an extensive list of additional materials to read are available in a forthcoming book by me which can be read online here
The reason i went into the lengthy explanation was your self confessed assertion that you were being sarcastic. Well it is time to educate oneself on the subterannean strands in Indian history and if i were you, i would abandon sarcasm as a weapon of choice. It impresses neither friend nor foe
<!--QuoteBegin-rajesh_g+Nov 28 2005, 12:08 AM-->QUOTE(rajesh_g @ Nov 28 2005, 12:08 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Men like Ambedkar, Raja Rammohan Roy etc bought into this and to a huge extent people still buy this line.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

THOUGH I dotn like the extent of the macaulay-icity of ram mohon roy's stand, i have to agree that india as a nation did in fact benifit from a dose of western education.

till about 1100 a.d. india was very proficient in science and education. then came darkness from arabia (and science went west from india).

also the social prisonhouse into which women in india - a country which has a history of female deity worship and a lot many female sages (and in this day, political leaders) - were plunged into - no education for them, early ie. teen, marriage and other islamic crap (you will notice that the islam style treatment of women is prevalent more in exactly those areas of india which were under muslims, and also from the era when muslims came. please read the last chapter of Nirad C Chaudhury - a macaulite i cant at all stand - his book, "the east is east and the west is west" and you will learn how thgings nosedived on the social front with the arrival of camel jockeys. in that era if a woman became a widow, then she would be abducted into some harem. sati was the more honourable option. he also alluded to tiffenthaler, the german when he came to india during the mughals would notice how temples would be visited secretly by hindus, lest they be put to the sword. some temples like the dilwara in mt abu were built where no camel jockey would be able to spot them hidden by the foliage. also in that era, if a beautiful woman didnt get married by her mid teens, then some muslims could take a likign for her and it would be harem time again. and ofcourse females should not be educated for their real job on the planet is to make babies) - all this social injustice could do with a dose of fresh and modern western worldview.


so where as i dont agree with a macaulay style view point at all, and dont like westophilia one bit, i have to confess that it did pull us out of islamic darkness in quick time.

the bengal rennaisance was the child of this "pulling out of darkness", and ram mohon roy was one of the prime reasons that women in india again (a la pre islamic days) have better jobs to do than just make babies.


even so with ambedkar. the caste system becomming what it had, india could do with a little bit (in fact quite a bit) of egalititarism.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Nathuram Godse's brother passes away

Sunday, November 27, 2005

Gopal Vinayak Godse, an accused in the Mahatma Gandhi assassination case and younger brother of Nathuram Godse, passed away here.

Godse, 86, passed away late last night, family sources said. He is survived by his wife Sindhu Godse, a son and two daughters.

The deceased had served life imprisonment in the Mahatma Gandhi assassination case and was in Ambala, Nasik and Aurangabad Central jails, his son Nana Godse said.

An active member of the Hindu Mahasabha, Gopal Godse wrote many books on Mahatma Gandhi's assassination, one of which was 'Gandhi Hatya Aur Main.'

http://www.deccanherald.com/deccanherald/n...51120051127.asp<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->The Rediff Interview / Gopal Godse

January 29, 1998

'Gandhi used to systematically fool people. So we killed him'

The lights go off as you reach the dilapidated building in Santa Cruz, in Bombay's western suburbs. With great difficulty you navigate the stairs and knock on a first-floor door.

"What do you want," asks the lady who opened the door.

You tell her you have come to meet Gopal Godse.

"Yes, I'm here," a voice comes from a corner of the dark room. The lady brings a lighted candle and you see the 76-year-old man who underwent 18 years imprisonment for conspiring in Mahatma Gandhi's assassination.

"I'm sorry the lights are off," Nathuram Godse's brother says, "You know, this is India and even after 50 years of Independence we have not improved.

"Since Independence our people are accustomed to forget history. Today no one is bothered about the Partition. And no one wants to reunite India, Pakistan and Bangladesh.

"Gandhi systematically fooled the people by saying, 'I'll accept the Partition of the country over my dead body.' But still he partitioned India. So we killed him..."

Godse, in an exclusive interview with Firdaus Syed Ashraf:

Do you ever regret Mahatma Gandhi's killing?

No, never. Gandhi used to claim the Partition would be over his dead body. So after Partition when he didn't die, we killed him. Usually an assassination of a leader is either for personal benefit or to acquire power. We killed Gandhi because he was harmful to India. And it was a selfless act. No one paid us a single penny for it. Our love for the motherland made us do it. We are not ashamed of it. Gandhi should have been honest to admit that his life was a failure.

You see, right from Pakistan and Bangladesh every Muslim is a converted Hindu. Gandhi's appeasement attitude (towards the Muslims) went far too much. That was why we killed him. Two hundred and fifty thousand Hindus were killed in Noakhali in October 1946. Hindu women were forced to remove their sindhoor and do Muslim rituals. And Gandhi said, 'Hindus must bow their heads if Muslims want to kill them. We should follow the principle of ahimsa (non-violence).' How can any sensible person tolerate this? Our action was not for a handful of people -- it was for all the refugees who came from Pakistan.

So, till this day, I have never regreted being one of the conspirators in Gandhi's assassination. In fact, many of Nathuram's friends told me after my release, 'Nathuram ni gadhav pana kela, tyani majha chance ghalavla' (Nathuram did you an injustice. He made you miss your chance to kill Gandhi).

Did your family undergo any social pressure after the assassination?

Yes, very much. No one used to be ready to marry girls from my family. So we decided that the first thing we should put across to the bridegroom was that we are related to Nathuram Godse. It is only now that people appreciate our honesty. Now they are ready for marriage (into my family).

If the Muslim League could influence the Muslims in 1947, why was it that the Hindu Mahasabha could not influence Hindus?

(That was) because I don't have any leadership quality. My talent is to write. And I have convinced my readers with my writing.

Unfortunately, the so-called secular Hindu leaders from the Congress have been ruling the masses since 1885. And they have ruled the country for another 50 years. It is only now that Hindus have become conscious (about the Congress). They have thrown the party out from Maharashtra and all over India.

You cannot gauge a nation in merely five decades. It took 500 years for the Christians to drive away Muslims from Europe. Muslims ruled right up to Spain and Portugal. I don't know how many years it will take for Hindus to rule the entire Bharat. It may be a decade, or it may be a century.

Did you ever contest elections?

Yes, I contested from Ranchi in Bihar. People asked me why I was contesting there. I said my slogan is 'Ab ke bar Ranchi se agli bar Karachi se'. (This election I will contest from Ranchi and the next from Karachi). I was able to secure only 7,000 votes because I did not have any mass support.

Can Muslims and Hindus ever live together in peace?

Yes, if the Muslims give up their blind faith. It is written in the Koran that idol worship is not permitted. If Muslims don't want Hindus to pray to their gods, how can they live together with them (the Hindus)? They want to convert Hindus to Islam not realising that their ancestors were Hindus. They must give up this attitude. Then only the two can live together.

And who created Pakistan? It wasn't the Arabs but the Muslims of Bharat. Who was Jinnah? His grandfather was a Hindu. Benazir Bhutto is also a Hindu Rajput.

Every Muslim nation keeps away from modern science. And when they do that they are left far behind the rest of the world. When the telephone was invented, Muslim countries were not using it. They said it is not mentioned in the Koran, that it was un-Islamic!

Of the 140 million Muslims in India, how many would you say want to convert Hindus to Islam?

The number is not important. What's important is that it is written in their religion. They have already shown that by creating Pakistan. No secular Hindu can go for Haj. Why is it so that only Muslims are allowed there? Is it because only Muslims are secular?

Who wants to expand Islam in India? Can you name them?

No. You have to understand one thing. Individually a Muslim may be good to the Hindus. But when in a group, he will be out of the national mainstream.

What is the national mainstream?

I can give you an example: There was some inauguration of a dam in Kerala. A Muslim minister was asked to light the lamp. He refused, saying his religion does not permit him to do that! That's hypocrisy. Whenever you find benefits you keep your Islam away. And when you are asked to light a lamp you say it's against your religion! That's why I say Muslims in a mob are not in the mainstream.

Veer Savarkar once said, "If a Vithal is worshipped by a Harijan and you say that he is polluted, then he is no Vithal at all."

How can there be a mainstream in India when there are so many castes? A Maharashtrian has a different caste and culture from that of his counterpart in West Bengal.

Britishers created this caste system. Even in Maharashtra they wanted to create a split between the brahmins and the others. Laloo Prasad Yadav and Mulayam Singh Yadav are from the same caste. But still they quarrel. Why? Because they are hungry for power. What has tied them and every Indian together is the common culture. That is what we call Hindutva. For example, a marriage between a Mahar in Maharashtra and a brahmin in West Bengal. They come from the same mantras. That is what we call culture and Hindutva.

The most essential thing is why we are together. Because of language? No. Because of our common culture. And that is why from north to south people are going to attend the Amarnath Yatra. Once you forget your culture, the mere existence of the geographical boundary which is termed India will be of no use.

What were your experiences in jail?

When we took the step, we were sure of the consequences. We took it because we loved our nation. Bhagat Singh did not want to liberate his ancestral land. He wanted to liberate Lahore, Pune and the entire nation. So he sacrificed his life. Revolution is integrated with its leader. A man who sacrifices his life is not bothered about petty things. We knew Gandhi's leadership was not good for the nation. Someone had to jump in the fire. So we did it.

Veer Savarkar was made to do the work which bullocks did in an oil mill. And he did it. Why? Because he was dedicated to the nation. All revolutionaries have to make personal sacrifice. Luckily for us, all the jailers knew we were simple men. They knew our cause. So they never troubled us. And I never violated the prison rules. I studied about life imprisonment and wrote about it.

Can you tell me about your last meeting with Nathuram Godse?

I met him on November 13, 1948 in Ambala jail. It was the day before his execution and there were 20 others with me. Both he and Narayan Apte were jolly.

Nathuram told us that his ashes must not be immersed in any river in India -- it must be scattered only in the Sindhu in Pakistan. His explanation was that Gandhi's ashes have been immersed in all the rivers of the world -- even in the Nile, Volga and Thames. But the Pakistan government refused to immerse his ashes in the Sindhu, saying they didn't want to pollute it with the ashes of a kafir. According to Nathuram the Sindhu was the only river which was pure as Gandhi's ashes were not immersed there.

How do you see India's future?

(Laughs) You make me the prime minister and half the problem of this country will be solved. But I think we will improve only if our leaders adopt a selfless attitude. Take for example the education policy. We must set up a target: in 15 years we will educate so many people. And only those people who can read and write will be allowed to vote. In such an eventuality, politicians will get busy educating the masses in order to get votes.

Another problem is the large number of candidates. And many of them are uneducated. We must make some norms to prevent this. Only then we will improve. To date, nobody has any thought of the nation. Otherwise you would never have heard of recovering more than Rs 30 million from a politician's flat. They don't have any integration with the nation. They are only integrated with their family and sons-in-law.

What is your opinion about secularism in India?

All these 50 years we practised a mockery of secularism. The magistrate has to ask about the religion of a person before giving a judgment. If a man is a Hindu he gets one kind of justice and if he is a Muslim he gets another. Can you call this secularism? This is what is happening in our country. Even in the Property Act you have different rules for Muslims.

What about poverty in India?

Poverty has increased because resources have not increased. On one side you want to increase the life of a person. On the other, you don't want to increase the resources. If you have noticed, during the advertisement of family planning on television you never see a Muslim woman saying 'Hum do Hamare do' (We are two, ours two). And these secularists say that family planning is applicable to all of us! I don't understand why former prime minister Narasimha Rao says 'If there is a Common Civil Code riots will start all over the country'.

Which do you prefer -- the BJP or Shiv Sena?

The Shiv Sena. The BJP is more hesitant to stand by Hinduism. The Shiv Sena supports the killing of Gandhi. People accept them as a Hindu party. When I was honoured, the BJP kept away from it. In Maharashtra the Sena has more respect than the BJP.

http://www.rediff.com/news/1998/jan/29godse.htm<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->"His Principle of Peace Was Bogus"

Gopal Godse, co-conspirator in Gandhi's assassination and brother of the assassin, looks back in anger--and without regret

Fifty-two years ago, on Jan. 30, 1948, Mohandas Gandhi was shot dead by Nathuram Godse, a Hindu extremist. Godse believed that the Mahatma, or great soul, was responsible for the 1947 partition of India and the creation of Pakistan. Godse and his friend Narayan Apte were hanged. His brother Gopal and two others were sentenced to life imprisonment for their part in the conspiracy. Gopal Godse remained in jail for 18 years and now, at 80, lives with his wife in a small apartment in Pune. He is still proud of his role in the murder. Although Godse is largely ignored in India and rarely talks to journalists, he agreed to speak with TIME Delhi correspondent Meenakshi Ganguly.

TIME: What happened in January 1948?

Godse: On Jan. 20, Madanlal Pahwa exploded a bomb at Gandhi's prayer meeting in Delhi. It was 50 m away from Gandhi. [The other conspirators] all ran away from the place. Madanlal was caught there. Then there was a tension in our minds that we had to finish the task before the police caught us. Then Nathuram [Gopal's brother] took it on himself to do the thing. We only wanted destiny to help us -- meaning we should not be caught on the spot before he acted.

TIME: Why did you want to kill Gandhi?

Godse: Gandhi was a hypocrite. Even after the massacre of the Hindus by the Muslims, he was happy. The more the massacres of the Hindus, the taller his flag of secularism.

TIME: Did you ever see Gandhi?

Godse: Yes.

TIME: Did you attend his meetings?

Godse: Yes.

TIME: Can you explain how he created his mass following?

Godse: The credit goes to him for maneuvering the media. He captured the press. That was essential. How Gandhi walked, when he smiled, how he waved -- all these minor details that the people did not require were imposed upon them to create an atmosphere around Gandhi. <span style='color:red'>And the more ignorant the masses, the more popular was Gandhi. So they always tried to keep the masses ignorant. </span>

TIME: But surely it takes more than good publicity to create a Gandhi?

Godse: There is another thing. Generally in the Indian masses, people are attracted toward saintism. Gandhi was shrewd to use his saintdom for politics. After his death the government used him. The government knew that he was an enemy of Hindus, but they wanted to show that he was a staunch Hindu. So the first act they did was to put "Hey Ram" into Gandhi's dead mouth.

TIME: You mean that he did not say "Hey Ram" as he died?

Godse: No, he did not say it. You see, it was an automatic pistol. It had a magazine for nine bullets but there were actually seven at that time. And once you pull the trigger, within a second, all the seven bullets had passed. When these bullets pass through crucial points like the heart, consciousness is finished. You have no strength.

When Nathuram saw Gandhi was coming, he took out the pistol and folded his hands with the pistol inside it. There was one girl very close to Gandhi. He feared that he would hurt the girl. So he went forward and with his left hand pushed her aside and shot. It happened within one second. You see, there was a film and some Kingsley fellow had acted as Gandhi. Someone asked me whether Gandhi said, "Hey Ram." I said Kingsley did say it. But Gandhi did not. Because that was not a drama.

TIME: Many people think Gandhi deserved to be nominated TIME's Person of the Century. [He was one of two runners-up, after Albert Einstein.]

Godse: I name him the most cruel person for Hindus in India. The most cruel person! That is how I term him.

TIME: Is that why Gandhi had to die?

Godse: Yes. For months he was advising Hindus that they must never be angry with the Muslims. What sort of ahimsa (non-violence) is this? His principle of peace was bogus. In any free country, a person like him would be shot dead officially because he was encouraging the Muslims to kill Hindus.

TIME: But his philosophy was of turning the other cheek. He felt one person had to stop the cycle of violence...

Godse: The world does not work that way.

TIME: Is there anything that you admire about Gandhi?

Godse: Firstly, the mass awakening that Gandhi did. In our school days Gandhi was our idol. Secondly, he removed the fear of prison. He said it is different to go into prison for a theft and different to go in for satyagraha (civil disobedience). As youngsters, we had our enthusiasm, but we needed some channel. We took Gandhi to be our channel. We don't repent for that.

TIME: Did you not admire his principles of non-violence?

Godse: Non-violence is not a principle at all. He did not follow it. In politics you cannot follow non-violence. You cannot follow honesty. Every moment, you have to give a lie. Every moment you have to take a bullet in hand and kill someone. Why was he proved to be a hypocrite? Because he was in politics with his so-called principles. Is his non-violence followed anywhere? Not in the least. Nowhere.

TIME: What was the most difficult thing about killing Gandhi?

Godse: The greatest hurdle before us was not that of giving up our lives or going to the gallows. It was that we would be condemned both by the government and by the public. Because the public had been kept in the dark about what harm Gandhi had done to the nation. How he had fooled them!

TIME: Did the people condemn you?

Godse: Yes. People in general did. Because they had been kept ignorant.

http://www.time.com/time/asia/magazine/200...ndia.godse.html<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
in a country where so much historical doctoring goes on, i wish i could doctor history to make great patriots like godse, a bengali lol.

on the bright side (from my pov) after reading gopal godse's statement, i now can rest assured that for all the commie assclowns that we produced for the last 25 years we havent thankfully managed to produce buttheads like the fakir (er.. faker) and the pandit.


looking forward.... do the rest here believe that in another 20 years time we will be celebrating godse's birthday and gandhi's ass(asination) day nationwide, than celebrating kill hindu jayanti and children's (of midnight) day???

i think we should. spreading the facts about godse and gandhi's tomfoolery and nehru's cocktail of anglophilism and stalinism, is the surest way to bury their harmful memory deep.


its sad that many people in india consider godse (i even met a marathi) to be a villain !!!



anyway, good post.
<!--QuoteBegin-Bharatvarsh+Nov 28 2005, 05:08 AM-->QUOTE(Bharatvarsh @ Nov 28 2005, 05:08 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->And the more ignorant the masses, the more popular was Gandhi. So they always tried to keep the masses ignorant. [/color]

<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->


replace gandhi with "communism", and a lot of things should become clear to you.
I am not solidly behind Gandhi's killing either, he definitely deserved what he got but on the otherhand his assasination pushed back the Hindu movement to the fringe of Indian politics for 50 years and made him into some kind of martyr among the gullible masses, Godse should have thought about this before he acted plus Gandhi was already old anyway and would have died within a few years.
[edited]

Ben_ami: Post responsibly.


ok here goes version 2.0


the martyr-ification of gandhi was largely due to our greatest prime minister, the great pandit jawaharlal nehru.

devoting the rest of his live towards the martyrification of gandhi and planting the nehru-gandhi family in delhi (and little else) and hikacking of the indian education system, were some of the greater achevements of nehru - this greatest of gandhi's followers (pun on follower, NOT intended) and statesman extraordinaire.


nehru was quite charming too, as mountbatten's wife would attest.

wish we had someone like gopal godse as our education minister, so that at least the real face of gandhi's anti hinduism would come out.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->then sardar patel/tilak, would have become pm. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Tilak passed away in 1920 so he couldn't have been the PM
<!--QuoteBegin-Bharatvarsh+Nov 28 2005, 07:32 AM-->QUOTE(Bharatvarsh @ Nov 28 2005, 07:32 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->then sardar patel/tilak, would have become pm. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Tilak passed away in 1920 so he couldn't have been the PM
[right][snapback]42127[/snapback][/right]
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


woops, my bad.

but i daresay he would have made a good one, had he been around in 47.
<b>Last of Gandhi plotters is dead</b><!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Gopal Vinayak Godse, a conspirator in the Mahatma Gandhi assassination case and younger brother of Nathuram Godse, died here on Sunday following a brief illness. He was 86.

A Hindu Mahasabha worker, Gopal Godse continued to be neglected in his death, with just a few family members and followers of Veer Savarkar attending his funeral at Vaikunth crematorium in Pune.

Slogans like Vande mataram and Akhand Bharat karke rahenge were raised by Savarkar’s followers when the body was taken to the crematorium.

Gopal Godse remained behind bars for almost 18 years in connection with Gandhi’s assassination. He wrote several bestselling books on Gandhi’s killing. Written in Marathi, they were translated into several Indian languages.

His 55 Kotinche Bali is based on the statement Nathuram gave before the court during the Gandhi assassination trial. Though the government banned the statement, Gopal Godse came out with the book based on it after his release from jail.

Other books that sold well included Gandhi Hatya ani Me and Fashi ani Nathuram Godse. He is survived by his wife, two daughters and a son.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->


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