What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory-1

01-18-2006, 04:29 PM

Dhu and Hauma, thanks for the replies. I'll have to digest some of that.

I have come across Afrocentrism. Although I do understand where Africans are coming from (having had everything taken away from them and their very real achievements denied and appropriated by others, much like our own Indian ones have been), I don't agree with some African-oriented sites linking to dalitstan as proof that the "North Indian Europeans" oppressed the "African South Indians" a la Race Segregation in the US. They're assuming the AIT is true. Everyone in the world who's heard of the AIT, has assumed it to be true. The fact is, Africans ought to realise that if they want to claim any Indians, they better claim all of us or none of us. They need to do more research, instead of trusting the same divisive racist notions spread about Indians that were perpetrated on Africans themselves.
As regards dalitstan, an internet security site (which even the US army and intelligence find reliable enough to refer to w.r.t. known terrorist organisations) has listed it as a Pakistani Terrorist organisation. See http://www.cromwell-intl.com/security/netusers.html - look for the word "mughalstan" in the left column, then on the page that loads to the right, scroll down to the occurrence of "mughalstan". One of the sites listed under this is - you guessed it - dalitstan. Eek.

QUOTE"Racism" as a construct has it roots not in AIT or so much in skin color but in Christianity's exclusivist doctrine. Yes. I had come to the same conclusion from what I've learnt about that religion and its history.
QUOTEChinese who state that they feel more comfortable with South Indians than with "Aryan North Indians" (theasf.net).  I don't think that's fair, considering that the AIT bases itself on skin-colour and not facial features (proof: if the latter were true it would have effectively grouped North and South Indians together). Since the 'Caucasian' look is almost completely determined by skin-colour, I think every Chinese person should realise they've been fed propaganda and disregard the AIT. Besides, Chinese people tend to be of very light colour (naturally more so in their North). Especially when compared to Indians. They could have just as easily had an AIT foisted on them to explain their skin-colour. The missionaries are well capable of that, except linguistically they might have found barriers to creating such a theory for China.

QUOTEI do not think we can generalize about SE Asians or Europeans being more trustworthy. I didn't mean to make my statement come off as an empirical observation. I was referring to my immediate emotional response whenever I meet someone from the SE Asian region. I tend to instantly warm to them, probably because they remind me very much of India, of thereabouts <!--emo& Smile

--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' />
QUOTEBasically, we are seeing the after-effects of 200 years of AIT brainwashing wherein north indians are falsely equated as European-type colonialists and racists in the eyes of the world. I realise that even if we ever live to see the AIT utterly disproven, the problems that have resulted from it won't have been undone. People today assume Indians of the North were a great evil causing millennia of oppression for Indians in the South. There's no real proof for it, other than fancies of the colonial and missionary past and their inheritors today. Oddly enough, the 100% factual Christian racism of America causing slavery, and Europe's genocide of the Americas is barely discussed.
We've had a kind of "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" played on us. The "Protocols" was an entirely concocted, malicious, anti-Semitic work, falsely attributed to Jewish people, which turns out (no surprise) was a complete fraud. Perpetrated by, who else? It was used in the past to incite pogroms and to commit genocide. Even today many people continue to think it's true.
QUOTEI must say we need not be too enthusiatic about the genetic evidence in relation to testing the AIT.  I was just grateful that there was something other than the mindgames involved in constructing PIE as done through linguistics. And the continuous inventive "interpretations" of our scriptures, passed off as "legitimate".
I appreciate that although the data gathered in genetics is quite precise in what it says about the sample observed, interpretation is a different matter altogether. Sample size, representative sampling, dating of markers, identifying markers, interpretating and the most influential of all: imposing a story on the data, are obviously going to greatly affect the results. To the extent that the same data can be taken to support any theory. I hope they discover more accurate dating techniques (i.e. "this genetic marker was introduced around 2000 and 1800 years ago, not before or after" instead of "Holocene" or "Pleistocene"). Together with a complete DNA databank of everyone in the world, it would make findings more reliable and leave little to imagination. At least where genetic make-up and ancestry is concerned.

If and when Remote Viewing (if that actually works) becomes wholly reliable and available to the public, lies can be exposed. Until then, Indians will just have to keep rolling with the punches, I guess.

Bharatvarsh · 01-18-2006, 08:51 PM

QUOTEWell, Manansala - unlike many Christians and even non-Christians - admits that Hitler and the Nazis were by and large Christians. American Christians would have you believe all the Nazis were dabbling in the occult (i.e. Eastern religions). The facts are that Hitler and 1/3 of Germany was Catholic, 2/3 of the country was Protestant, with only a very few being atheist or non-Christian. 
Sorry for the digression but Hitler was not a Christian and neither were most of the top Nazi leaders, to Hitler and others religion was mostly unimportant (and sometimes even an impediment) to the rise of the Aryan race, they appreciated religion when it served the purpose of expanding the Aryan territory through conquests or when it gave rise to hatred of Jews as Christianity did, that is why the Protestant reformation founder Martin Luther was called the first Nazi and Hitler appreciated the fact that Christianity gave rise to such Jew haters but he was opposed to the Christian solution to the Jewish problem (conversion), to Hitler and the Nazis the Jews were a race and conversion would change nothing. It is absolutely true that the rise of Nazism was helped by the centuries of anti semitic propaganda by the Church but that was just one factor, the principal factor was ofcourse biological racism according to which certain races were inherently inferior. To conclude, the Nazis were mostly secular and some of them like Heinrich Himmler had their own weird views on religion (with Heinrich Himmler trying to start a new religion with Hitler as the savior).

01-18-2006, 09:43 PM

Is it really true that no dna sample of north indian people show any similarity to the people of INDUS VALLEY CIVILIZATION.
If dna sample shows similarity as in the case of rajputs or jats as in the case Y -SNP GROUPING than why are we hell bent on vanishing harppan people.
Is it not funny these people claiming their ancestory in far away less developed central asian cultures than this civilization.DHU you may clarify

01-18-2006, 10:32 PM

QUOTESorry for the digression but Hitler was not a Christian and neither were most of the top Nazi leaders, to Hitler and others religion was mostly unimportant (and sometimes even an impediment)...


Some of the Nazis certainly held the above views.

But most of the rank and file Nazis and vast majority of Germans were devout Christians. For them World War II was a Christian crusade to revive a new Holy Roman Empire and also destroy Bolsheviks, Jews etc.

Remember that the Roman catholic Pope fully supported the Nazi movement.

Further German Christians have always hated the Jews.

The Nazi propoganda reels repeatedly showed the Nazis as a new order of "Teutonic Knights". The same Teutonic knights who destroyed the pagan kingdoms of Prussia and Lithuania, the last pagan kingdoms in Europe.

The average German did not call the Swastika as the Swastika. Instead they called it the Haken-cruz (crooked cross). So the Christian theme runs here also.

The Nazi fools stole our Hindu symbol the Swastika and distorted it into a "Haken Cruz".

There is also a stupid myth in Germany that whenever their country is in danger the Holy Roman Emperor Fredrich Barbarossa would come back to defend them.
Sort of like a Christian messiah coming to "save" them.

Fredrich Barbarossa was one the kings sent by the Pope to fight in the Christian crusade to liberate Jerusalem from the muslims.

dhu · (This post was last modified: 01-19-2006, 02:42 AM by dhu.)

QUOTEIs it really true that no dna sample of north indian people show any similarity to the people of INDUS VALLEY CIVILIZATION.
No, IVC people did not vanish, nor the IVC (SSVC) culture; the IVC culture evolves into the later classical indian culture of the ganga basin. This is proven by archaeology, anthropology, and genetics.

QUOTEIf dna sample shows similarity as in the case of rajputs or jats as in the case Y -SNP GROUPING than why are we hell bent on vanishing harppan people.
The genetic papers show that Indians' ancestry is a result of indigineous pre-holocene and holocene era expansions. jats, rajputs, sindhis, punjabis are all included as indigineous inhabitants of inida. holocene means last 10,000 years.

QUOTEIs it not funny these people claiming their ancestory in far away less developed central asian cultures than this civilization.
Basically, We have a sampling type defect being magnified. Even minor movements into the subcontinent such as those of the huns (mongoloids) get recorded faithfully while all major movements from India into C Asia are never recorded since these were 'less developed C Asian cultures'. As said previously by G. Subramaniam, India has forever been a major net exporter of people . Those peoples who did enter India tended to be economic migrants who did get submerged in the established Indian culture and population.

Ravi Chaudhary (jathistory group) is proving something similar in the case of kanishka and the kushans that these supposed C asian invader groups never seem to leave any mark upon the Indian culture- no languages, no ethnicities, etc- but always seem to mediate crucial Indian social developments- eg the expansion of buddhism into China. Its another case of euro mischiefmaking in india's history. The Kushan period saw prakrits as a rule being spoken deep into C asia.

dhu · (This post was last modified: 01-19-2006, 01:36 AM by dhu.)

QUOTEBesides, Chinese people tend to be of very light colour (naturally more so in their North). Especially when compared to Indians. They could have just as easily had an AIT foisted on them to explain their skin-colour. 

Well, Euros have certainly tried to pose "white-skinned nomads" as the progenitors of China's culture (eg, europeans introduced horses into China, etc), despite the fact that the nomadic culture is most synonymous with Mongolians. in fact, the mongolians are known to have introduced the stirrups to Byzantine ME and Europe.

QUOTEThe missionaries are well capable of that, except linguistically they might have found barriers to creating such a theory for China.

The Chinese are neither stupid nor naive enough to believe that their major neolithic centres starting at 10K could have ever entertained a catastrophic language shift in the middle of their development.

In fact, many now agree that southern Han Chinese identity was politically manufactured during the Han dynasty and that there was never any major Northern Population movements to the South. This opens up the possibilty that the languages of northern neolithic centers did indeed develop in the South where there is a .. diversification crucible in the form of tibeto-burmese and other southern languages. The situation is analogous to Sanskrit in India's major neolithic centers developing from a Dravidian base - as also supported by the genetic evidence of North Indians diversifing from South Indians.

agnivayu · 01-19-2006, 05:05 AM

Bharatvarsh,

Here is Hitler himself regarding this beliefs :

"I believe today that my conduct is in accordance
with the will of the Almighty Creator."
[Adolph Hitler, _Mein Kampf_, pp. 46]

"This human world of ours would be inconceivable without
the practical existence of a religious belief."
[Adolph Hitler, _Mein Kampf_, pp.152]

"What we have to fight for...is the freedom and independence
of the fatherland, so that our people may be enabled to fulfill
the mission assigned to it by the Creator."
[Adolph Hitler, _Mein Kampf_, pp. 125]

"And the founder of Christianity made no secret indeed of his
estimation of the Jewish people. When He found it necessary,
He drove those enemies of the human race out of the Temple of God."
[Adolph Hitler, _Mein Kampf_, pp.174]

"It may be that today gold has become the exclusive ruler of life, but
the time will come when man will again bow down before a higher god."
[Adolph Hitler, "Mein Kampf" Vol. 2 Chapter 2]

"....the personification of the devil as the symbol
of all evil assumes the living shape of the Jew."
[Adolph Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 11,
precisely echoing Martin Luther's teachings]

"Thus inwardly armed with confidence in God and the unshakable
stupidity of the voting citizenry, the politicians can begin
the fight for the 'remaking' of the Reich as they call it."
[Adolph Hitler, "Mein Kampf" Vol. 2 Chapter 1]

"The greatness of Christianity did not lie in attempted negotiations for
compromise with any similar philosophical opinions in the ancient world, but
in its inexorable fanaticism in preaching and fighting for its own doctrine."
[Adolph Hitler, "Mein Kampf" Vol. 1 Chapter 12]

01-19-2006, 05:16 AM

Bharatvarsh,
regarding Hitler, nazis, Germany and its Churches during WWII, if you have any doubts, please see Hitler's Christianity (Hitler's own Christian convictions can be found in the first two links on this page)
In particular, go through the pages on:
Quotes from Hitler's Henchmen and nazi Sympathizers
Christianity in Europe during WWII
The most enlightening page of them all in some respects. Most of the Christian civilians killed by the nazi regime were those of Jewish ancestry, given up to the nazi government by their own churches who were convinced that "once a jew, always a jew" even though these people had converted. That's because anti-Semitism had been ingrained in Europe since the start of Christianity, reinforced by the Romans, Luther, in church and schools. Uniquely, they didn't consider Jewish converts to Christianity as Christians.
Other Christians killed by the nazis were done so for their political reasons, as the records of the war tribunals themselves indicate: nazi German officers make it clear that (non-Jewish) Christians were killed only for political involvement and not at all on religious grounds.
And the same link also shows that the only main church protesting nazism did so not because it was against the anti-Semitism (its famous leaders admitted they were anti-Semitic too), but because they wanted more political freedom.
Nazi Photos
Don't forget to scroll down to the "Nazi Graves" section of photos.

Also you should go through some of the transliterations of the Nuremberg trials (nizkor.org should have them). What the nazi leaders said about their religious convictions is pretty obvious. This is the most famous one, I believe:
QUOTEWhen asked if there were any other anti-Semitic publications, other than Der StÃ¼rmer, published in Germany, Streicher replied:
Anti-Semitic publications have existed in Germany for centuries. A book I had, written by Dr. Martin Luther, was, for instance, confiscated. Dr. Martin Luther would very probably sit in my place in the defendants' dock today, if this book had been taken into consideration by the Prosecution. In this book The Jews and Their Lies, Dr. Martin Luther writes that the Jews are a serpent's brood and one should burn down their synagogues and destroy them...
-Julius Streicher, (Trial of The Major War Criminals Before the International Military Tribunal, Nuremberg, 1945, Vol. 12)'''
Before WWII, Streicher made it clear that he is emulating Christ himself in this incomprehensible hatred of Jewish people:
QUOTEGermans must fight Jews, that organized body of world criminals against whom Christ, the greatest anti-Semite of all time, had fought.
-Julius Streicher (Hitler's Elite, Shocking Profiles of the Reich's Most Notorious Henchmen," Berkley Books, 1990)
And if you harbour any doubts that the evil Julius Streicher didn't "really" believe, then his last words might put those to rest:QUOTENow it goes to God!
-Julius Streicher, as he mounted the gallows platform to his death, (Hitler's Elite, Shocking Profiles of the Reich's Most Notorious Henchmen," Berkley Books, 1990)  (quotes taken from http://www.nobeliefs.com/henchmen.htm)
Christians in America have been trying to whitewash history. Well, they can try all they want, but even in Germany they admit to how much Christianity was to blame for nazism as their never-ending spate of books published on WWII indicate.
For all of the books about the occultism, atheism etc of a handful of nazis (considered even by Hitler to belong to the lunatic fringe), there is no doubt that practically all of Germany and most of the nazi leaders were very much Christian. An American soldier had stated after having been to German villages during WWII that Germany must be the most Christian country in the world.

01-19-2006, 08:47 AM

Sushmita,

Thanks for the excellent links.
A picture is worth a thousand words.

Everyone should definitely see these pictures:
http://www.nobeliefs.com/nazis.htm

**acharya** · 01-19-2006, 09:37 AM

QUOTEHeinrich Himmler

One of the most powerful men in Nazi Germany, Himmler served as the commander of the German Schutzstaffel (SS) and controlled the Gestapo. He grew up as a devout Catholic and attended mass regularly. Eventually he moved away from Catholicism toward Aryan occultist beliefs, but he, nevertheless, never lost his belief in God and he thought of Jesus as an Aryan.

01-19-2006, 09:52 AM

QUOTEEveryone should definitely see these pictures:
http://www.nobeliefs.com/nazis.htm

Wow !!! Excellent.

01-19-2006, 08:02 PM

Fyi...

QUOTEPublished online before print January 13, 2006
Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. USA, 10.1073/pnas.0507714103

Anthropology: biological sciences

A prehistory of Indian Y chromosomes: Evaluating demic diffusion scenarios

( agriculture | genetic origins | India | paternal lineages )
Sanghamitra Sahoo , Anamika SinghÂ , G. Himabindu , Jheelam Banerjee , T. SitalaximiÂ , Sonali Gaikwad , R. Trivedi , Phillip Endicott , Toomas Kivisild , Mait Metspalu , Richard Villems , and V. K. Kashyap

National DNA Analysis Centre, Central Forensic Science Laboratory, Kolkata 700014, India; Department of Zoology, University of Oxford, Oxford OX1 3PS, United Kingdom; Estonian Biocentre, 51010 Tartu, Estonia; and Â¶National Institute of Biologicals, Noida 201307, India

Edited by Colin Renfrew, University of Cambridge, Cambridge, United Kingdom, and approved November 23, 2005 (received for review September 5, 2005)

Understanding the genetic origins and demographic history of Indian populations is important both for questions concerning the early settlement of Eurasia and more recent events, including the appearance of Indo-Aryan languages and settled agriculture in the subcontinent. Although there is general agreement that Indian caste and tribal populations share a common late Pleistocene maternal ancestry in India, some studies of the Y-chromosome markers have suggested a recent, substantial incursion from Central or West Eurasia. To investigate the origin of paternal lineages of Indian populations, 936 Y chromosomes, representing 32 tribal and 45 caste groups from all four major linguistic groups of India, were analyzed for 38 single-nucleotide polymorphic markers. Phylogeography of the major Y-chromosomal haplogroups in India, genetic distance, and admixture analyses all indicate that the recent external contribution to Dravidian- and Hindi-speaking caste groups has been low. The sharing of some Y-chromosomal haplogroups between Indian and Central Asian populations is most parsimoniously explained by a deep, common ancestry between the two regions, with diffusion of some Indian-specific lineages northward. The Y-chromosomal data consistently suggest a largely South Asian origin for Indian caste communities and therefore argue against any major influx, from regions north and west of India, of people associated either with the development of agriculture or the spread of the Indo-Aryan language family. The dyadic Y-chromosome composition of Tibeto-Burman speakers of India, however, can be attributed to a recent demographic process, which appears to have absorbed and overlain populations who previously spoke Austro-Asiatic languages.

Author contributions: V.K.K. designed research; S.S., A.S., G.H., J.B., T.S., and S.G. performed research; S.S., R.T., P.E., T.K., M.M., and R.V. analyzed data; and S.S., P.E., T.K., and V.K.K. wrote the paper.

01-20-2006, 07:38 AM

I read the Kashyap paper and is a good piece of work. Contour diagrams of Y chromosome haplogroups are very informative.
From the article
The caste populations of âânorthââ and ââsouthââ India are not particularly more closely related to each other than they are to the tribal groups.
Genetic distances between Central Asia is similar for North caste, South Caste and Non North East tribals (NE tribes are treated separately), also same for distance from West Europe for the three groups. <img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/clap.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='clap.gif' />
Conclusions:
It is not necessary, based on the current evidence, to look beyond
South Asia for the origins of the paternal heritage of the majority
of Indians at the time of the onset of settled agriculture. The
perennial concept of people, language, and agriculture arriving
to India together through the northwest corridor does not hold
up to close scrutiny. Recent claims for a linkage of haplogroups
J2, L, R1a, and R2 with a contemporaneous origin for the
majority of the Indian castesâ paternal lineages from outside the
subcontinent are rejected, although our findings do support a
local origin of haplogroups F* and H. Of the others, only J2
indicates an unambiguous recent external contribution, from
West Asia rather than Central Asia.
The current distributions of haplogroup frequencies are, with the exception of the O ineages, predominantly driven by geographical, rather than cultural determinants.
Ironically, it is in the northeast of India, among the
TB groups that there is clear-cut evidence for large-scale demic
diffusion traceable by genes, culture, and language, but apparently
not by agriculture. <img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/cheers.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='cheers.gif' />

dhu · 01-22-2006, 02:46 AM

âI learned much from the Order of the Jesuits. Until now, there has never been anything more grandiose on the earth, than the hierarchical organization of the Catholic church. I transferred much of this organization into my own party.â â Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf

"The S.S. organization had been constituted by Himmler according to the principles of the Jesuit Order. Their regulations and the Spiritual Exercises prescribed by Ignatius of Loyola were the model Himmler tried to copy exactly. Himmler's title as supreme chief of the S.S. was to be the equivalent of the Jesuits' 'General' and the whole structure was a close imitation of the Catholic Church's hierarchical order." - Walter Schellenberg, former chief of Nazi counter-espionage

Himmler's father and brother were closely associated with the Jesuits.

Goebbles was a trained Jesuit priest.

Hitler went to a Jesuit convent.

link

dhu · 01-22-2006, 03:01 AM

A prehistory of Indian Y chromosomes: Evaluating demic diffusion scenarios
Sanghamitra Sahoo, Anamika Singh, G. Himabindu, Jheelam Banerjee, T. Sitalaximi, Sonali Gaikwad, R. Trivedi, Phillip Endicott, Toomas Kivisild, Mait Metspalu, Richard Villems, and V. K. Kashyap

from the ABSTRACT
"The sharing of some Y-chromosomal haplogroups between Indian and Central Asian populations is most parsimoniously explained by a deep, common ancestry between the two regions, with diffusion of some Indian-specific lineages northward. The Y-chromosomal data consistently suggest a largely South Asian origin for Indian caste communities and therefore argue against any major influx, from regions north and west of India, of people associated either with the development of agriculture or the spread of the Indo-Aryan language family."
---------------------------------------------------------------
Several studies have argued that, in contrast to the relative uniformity of mtDNA, the Y chromosomes of Indian populations display relatively small genetic distances to those of West Eurasians (17), linking this finding to hypothetical migrations by Indo-Aryan speakers. Wells et al. (18) highlighted M17 (R1a) as a potential marker for one such event, as it demonstrates decreasing frequencies from Central Asia toward South India.

Departing from the Ëone haplogroup equals one migration " scenario, Cordaux et al. (19) defined, heuristically, a package of haplogroups (J2, R1a, R2, and L) to be associated with the migration of IE people and the introduction of the caste system to India, again from Central Asia, because they had been observed at significantly lower proportions in South Indian tribal groups, with the high frequency of R1a among Chenchus of Andhra Pradesh (6) considered as an aberrant phenomenon (19). Conversely, haplogroups H, F*, and O2a, which were observed at significantly higher proportions among tribal groups of South India, led the same authors to single them out as having an indigenous Indian origin. Only O3e was envisaged as originating (recently) east of India (20), substantiating a linguistic correlation with the TB speakers of Southeast Asia...."

"In other words, if the source of R1a variation in India comes from Central Asia, as claimed by Wells et al. (18) and Cordaux et al. (19), then, under a recent gene flow scenario, one would expect to find the other Central Asian-derived NRY haplogroups (C3, DE, J*, I, G, N, O) in Northwest India at similarly elevated frequencies, but that is not the case. Alternatively, although the simple admixture scenario does not hold, one could nevertheless argue that the other haplogroups were lost during a hypothetical bottleneck (lineage sorting among the early Indo-Aryans arriving to India). But in line with this scenario, one should expect to observe dramatically lower genetic variation among Indian R1a lineages. In fact, the opposite is true"

"Indo-Aryan migration scenario advocated in ref. 19 rested on the suggestion that all Indian caste groups are similar to each other while being significantly different from the tribes. Using a much more representative data set, numerically, geographically, and definitively, it was not possible to confirm any of the purported differentiations between the caste and tribal pools. Although differences could be found to occur within particular regions, between particular caste and tribal groups, consistent and statistically significant variations at the subcontinental scale were not detected."

"It is not necessary, based on the current evidence, to look beyond South Asia for the origins of the paternal heritage of the majority of Indians at the time of the onset of settled agriculture. The perennial concept of people, language, and agriculture arriving to India together through the northwest corridor does not hold up to close scrutiny"

01-22-2006, 05:52 AM

Mitradena, Mudy, Bharatvarsh, anyone else,
there are several sites with nazi-Christian galleries (including the Ustashe) containing incriminating but particularly gruesome pictures that I do not wish to link to. If for some reason you need these links, I can put them up, but with the warning that they are greatly disturbing.

The Ustashe (Catholic Nazis of Croatia) exterminated Serbs (because they were Orthodox), Jews and Gypsies in what are admitted to be the most gruesome concentration camps of Europe. Many of the Ustashe were Catholic monks. Two bishops of the Ustashe were beatified by the previous pope. There's also a few pictures of the Yugoslavian Muslims who helped the Nazis, called the Handjar (they were a force 20,000 strong).

This is Hitler on how and where he got his anti-Semitism from (see http://www.nobeliefs.com/hitler.htm ):QUOTENot until my fourteenth or fifteenth year did I begin to come across the word 'Jew,' with any frequency, partly in connection with political discussions.... For the Jew was still characterized for me by nothing but his religion, and therefore, on grounds of human tolerance, I maintained my rejection of religious attacks in this case as in others. Consequently, the tone, particularly that of the Viennese anti-Semitic press, seemed to me unworthy of the cultural tradition of a great nation.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

I was not in agreement with the sharp anti-Semitic tone, but from time to time I read arguments which gave me some food for thought.
At all events, these occasions slowly made me acquainted with the man and the movement, which in those days guided Vienna's destinies: Dr. Karl Lueger and the Christian Social Party.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)
(Note: Karl Lueger (1844-1910) belonged as a member of the anti-Semitic Christian Social Party, he became mayor of Vienna and kept his post until his death.)

The man and the movement seemed 'reactionary' in my eyes. My common sense of justice, however, forced me to change this judgment in proportion as I had occasion to become acquainted with the man and his work; and slowly my fair judgment turned to unconcealed admiration. Today, more than ever, I regard this man as the greatest German mayor of all times.
-Adolf Hitler speaking about Dr. Karl Lueger of the Christian Social Party (Mein Kampf)

How many of my basic principles were upset by this change in my attitude toward the Christian Social movement!
My views with regard to anti-Semitism thus succumbed to the passage of time, and this was my greatest transformation of all.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

01-22-2006, 06:09 AM

Bharatvarsha:QUOTEChristian solution to the Jewish problem [was] (conversion), [whereas] to Hitler and the Nazis the Jews were a race and conversion would change nothing.This isn't true. Although the Confessing Church (as the only church) accepted Jewish converts, they didn't really care what happened to the inconvertible Jewish population. Thus for their Church, 'conversion' wasn't a complete "solution" to the "Jewish question". The other churches were entirely in line with Hitler's hideously evil design. See below.

More important than the pictures, is the little-known but revelatory information contained on the page http://www.nobeliefs.com/ChurchesWWII.htm

QUOTECatholic Church
On April 25, thousands of Catholic priests across Germany became part of an anti-Semitic attestation bureaucracy, supplying details of blood purity through marriage and baptism registries in accordance with the Nazi Nuremberg laws which distinguished Jews from non-Jews. Catholic clerical compliance in the process would continue throughout the period of the Nazi regime. [Cornwell, pp.154] Any claimed saving of all-too-few Jewish lives by a few brave Catholics must stand against the millions who died in the death camps as an indirect result of the official workings of the Catholic body.
...
Throughout the war, not only did Catholic priests pay homage to Hitler and contribute to the anti-Semitic feelings, several priests also protected Nazis from criminal charges.For example, Nazi sympathizers such as Bishop Alois Hudal helped Nazi criminals escape to South America by assisting them with false papers and hiding places in Rome. Father Dragonovic worked with the U.S. Army's Counter Intelligence Corps (CIC) to organize the escape of the Nazi war criminal Klaus Barbie to South America. Barbie had also lived under Dragonovic's protection in San Girolamo for about a year.
......

Protestant Church
After the Nazi party took over, they began to exclude Jews from jobs and schools and later to exclude baptized racial Jews from the Land churches and to force them to live completely by themselves. Notably, the churches deeply involved themselves in furnishing data about racial origins from the very beginning of the Nazi era. Even Bishop Wurm saw no harm in this, and in 1934 informed his clergy: "The use of the 'hereditary passports' (Ahnenpasse) can also be recommended from the standpoint of the church." [Helmreich, p. 328]

On September 1, 1941, a national law made it compulsory for all Jews to display the Star of David when they appeared in public. The ordinance presented a problem to the churches because they did not know that many of the Christians in their congregations had Jewish origins.

How did the Protestant churches respond to this oppression of their fellow Christians? On December 17, 1941, Protestant Evangelical Church leaders of Mecklenburg, Thuringia, Saxony, Nassau-Hesse, Mecklenburg, Schleswig-Holstein, Anhalt, and Lubeck collectively issued an official proclamation:<div class='quotetop'>QUOTEFrom the crucifixion of Christ to the present day, the Jews have fought Christianity or misused and falsified it in order to reach their own selfish goals. By Christian baptism nothing is altered in regard to a Jew's racial separateness, his national being, and his biological nature. A German Evangelical church has to care for and further the religious life of German fellow countrymen; racial Jewish Christians have no place or rights in it. [Helmreich, p. 329]
Confessing Church
Hitler wanted to combine all the regional Protestant churches into a single and united Reich Church. Of course this meant government control of the Church and a minority of Lutheran Pastors foresaw the dangers. In 1933, a few Protestant Pastors, namely Martin NiemÃ¶ller, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, Karl Barth and others formed the "Pastors Emergency League" which later became known as "The Confessing Church" to oppose the state controlled Nazi Church.

It bears some importance to understand that Germany did not recognize the Confessing Church as an official Church. Not only the Nazis, but all other Protestant Churches condemned the Confessing Church. They thought of it as a minority opposition that held little power. The vast majority of German churches supported Hitler and his policies against the Jews. Moreover, they advocated composing an "Aryan Paragraph" in church synods that would prevent non-aryans from joining the Church, which of course included Jews.

In spite of the myth that has developed that the Confessing Church opposed Hitler for anti-Semitic reasons, the main reason for the opposition actually aimed to protect the power of Pastors to determine who should preach and who they can preach to. The Barmen Declaration of Faith (by Karl Barth, et al) became the principle statement of The Confessing Church. Not a single sentence in it opposes anti-Semitism. According to Professor John S. Conway: "The Confessing Church did not seek to espouse the cause of the Jews as a whole, nor to criticize the secular legislation directed against the German Jews and the Nazi racial philosophy."

Basically, the Confessing Church wanted to save themselves from state control by forming what they considered themselves as the "True Church" (don't all Christians think of themselves as belonging to the True Church?). They did not want government interference with Church self-regulation. This of course deserves plaudits as history has shown that state controlled religions have always ended in oppressing its people. The formation of the United States with its secular government aimed at just this kind of freedom of religion from the state. On this account, the Confessing Church deserves honorable mention. However, just what did they oppose about the Jewish question?

It turns out that the Pastors of the Confessing Church held concerns only for Jews who converted to Christianity. Of course they viewed Jews who convert to Christianity as Christian, not Jewish. This Christian centered view gave them the reason for their objection to the "Aryan Paragraph." For Jews who did not convert, they held strong anti-Semitic feelings. Remember that these pastors lived as well read Lutherans; any reading of Martin Luther will reveal strong anti-Semetic feelings towrad Jews who did not convert... [proceeds to provide quotes to this effect from famous religious leaders of the Confessing Church] </div>
So, apart from the Confessing Church (which wasn't accepted by the other Churches), all the others Protestant Churches as well as the Catholic ones didn't accept Christians who had Jewish ancestry or Jewish people who'd converted to Christianity. In fact, they gave them up to the nazi-government to be killed. The Confessing Church accepted its Jewish Christian members, but didn't care what happened to non-converted Jews.
So that's what the Churches did to Jewish Christians. Israelis/Jewish people look European, but were nevertheless brutally murdered in a mass genocide. Now, how much will Native American, African, Indian and Chinese Christians be accepted? Hint: many Romany were also Christians, but they were nevertheless murdered in huge numbers as well.

Some more, on the same page:
QUOTERemaining secrets
Much remains unknown; the uncovering of the terrible history of Catholic and Protestant Germany during WWII continues. The silence of Catholic and Protestants, church members, priests, and nuns continues to this day. ... Romus ... continues to research and write about the priests who suppressed their anti-Semitic role in Germany... In her latest book, "Wintergreen: suppressed Murders," she documents the atrocities in her hometown [Passau] at the end of the war including the slaying of 2,000 Soviet prisoners, the murder of slave laborers' infants and the efforts to change memorials to victims so that Nazi horrors would remain forgotten. Rosmus has endured verbal abuse, death threats and lawsuits in response to her dedication to the memories of those who faced Nazi persecution.

Recent evidence has surfaced that shows that both Germany's Roman Catholic Church and Germany's Protestant Church used forced laborers during the Third Reich. Religious affairs organizations have attempted to get the Churches to pay into a compensation fund for Nazi victims. ... "The correct thing to do is for the Church to pay into the fund. It's not about when, where and how many forced laborers were used, but whether the two main churches were involved in the system." [Reuters news, 20 July 2000]
...
Today the Catholic Church has undertaken a campaign of suppression and propaganda to belittle Cornwell, Goldhagen, Romus or any researcher that dares to uncover the reality of the atrocities committed by Roman Catholic Christians. Today, Protestant leaders rarely mention the influence by Martin Luther and his anti-Jewish sentiments taught throughout Germany. Indeed, most Protestants live completely unaware of the hatred and intolerances spread by their congressional ancestors. Instead of releasing documents and admitting to the crimes of their fellow Christians, they have opted to protect their religious power structures by silence, concealment, suppression, and projecting the story of persecutions committed against their own religion by other ideological systems, a ploy that disguises their own complicity of persecutions heaped upon others.

dhu · (This post was last modified: 01-22-2006, 07:22 AM by dhu.)

It's not a surprise that the Nazi sympathizer and enabler Pope Pius was allowed to get away scot free after the war. In contrast, Emperor Hirohito was forcefully de-deified even though he was a gentle pacifist who argued against the japanese expansion - his famous poem - "If all people are brethren, then why are the winds and waves so restless?" Do we have any such eloquent statement coming from Pope Pius, though he was similarly situated in the Axis nation of Italy??

01-22-2006, 03:17 PM

Dhu,
thanks for that quotation of Emperor Hirohito. I never knew he was a pacifist, nor was I aware of his opinion against Japanese expansion. (That begs the question, how did Japan attempt it without their Emperor approving it?)

Japan had been repeatedly trodden over by the west. Multiple attempts to crush and destroy Japanese culture and religion had been mounted by the west, so Japan's animosity during WWII was uniquely directed at America because of what it had suffered in the past. Unsurprisingly, the lust for global power which the country exhibited leading upto and during WWII it got from involuntary association with power-hungry imperialist countries. Imperialism has always been learnt. It was a dispicable disease Japan contracted by association. It doesn't excuse what they did in WWII (to China, etc). But it does explain the phenomenon.

Oddly enough, Shinto was made to bear the blame for Japan's attempt at global imperialism and war crimes, even though Shinto has existed for eons and never showed such behaviour before. On the other hand, Christianity was to blame for Nazism and yet there's a huge denial of the obvious going on. Besides which, the short history of Christianity is full of bloodsoaked imperialism.

There's one difference though: the Kamisama will never die. On the other hand, Jesus never existed

QUOTENazi sympathizer and enabler Pope PiusFor all the people fawning over the recently deceased pope (including our own Indian Christians - well, the Catholics at least), he was little better than Unpious Pius. Otherwise why did he beatify two Ustashe bishops (and wanted them sainted as well)?

01-22-2006, 04:06 PM

Dhu,
I have a problem with a statement in the paper excerpted in post #220/#217 (by you and K.ram):
QUOTEThe Y-chromosomal data consistently suggest a largely South Asian origin for Indian caste communities and therefore argue against any major influx, from regions north and west of India, of people associated either with the development of agriculture or the spread of the Indo-Aryan language family.Why is it that, even though the AIT is disproven genetically (besides which a distant South Asian ancestry is made undeniable for Europeans), we must still accept the AMindIT? Why must we now sit by quietly and accept the Aryan Mind Invasion Theory? Why is no one questioning that now? When the whole edifice of the AIT (that of an invading population) has been torn down - why does no one re-evaluate the whole linguistic assumption? Why are precise sciences still deferring to linguistics as if it the picture created by the latter is set in stone?

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