Anti Brahminism

06-09-2005, 04:04 AM

Guys just wanted to record the following interesting posts from Sri M Kelkar on IC.. Other admins might move the post(s) to appropriate places. I havent read it but would like to read it when I find time..

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IndianCivili...n/message/75957

QUOTEANTI - BRAHMANISM, THE NEW COMMUNALISM OF MODERN INDIA: David Frawley
http://www.hindubooks.org/david_frawley/aw...anism/page7.htm

Anti-Brahminism
Koenraad Elst
http://hamsa.org/StThomas_Chapt_4.htm#elst

http://www.geocities.com/ifihhome/articles/mj002.html
The Plight of Brahmins

By Meenakshi Jain

he tragedy of being a Tamil Brahmin
http://www.anothersubcontinent.com/forums/...topic=2088&st=0

http://www.vepachedu.org/Recommendations.html
Recommendations to Brahmana Sadassu

http://www.vepachedu.org/brahmana-tribe.ht...cited_Vedas_are
The Mouths that Recited Vedas are Grieving

http://www.chennaionline.com/colnews/newsi...DE-48F6-9\
775-125C409B40CE%7D&CATEGORYNAME=National
BSP to organise Brahmin Sammelan on Feb 20

http://www.sulekha.com/expressions/article....asp?cid=306467
Myth of Brahminical Hegemony
Moor Nam

Many Brahaman houselholds were burnt in Maharashtra after Gandhi's
assasination. The last name Godse is almost non existant today
because people had it changed.

to be continued.

M. Kelkar

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IndianCivili...n/message/75987

QUOTE--- In IndianCivilization@yahoogroups.com, "koenraad_elst"
<koenraad.elst@p...> wrote:
> --- In IndianCivilization@yahoogroups.com, "mkelkar2003"
> <smykelkar@c...> wrote:
> > An anti anti Brahman (and hence a pro Brahman) book is not a good
> idea
> > because Brahmans are the last ones to complain or rely on counter
> > propoganda to repond in kind to Dalistan.
> >
> > M. Kelkar
>
>
> Thanks already for your list of available material. It goes without
> saying that a book on anti-Brahminism should not have the same hateful
> and victimhood-cultivating tone of the typical anti-Brahmin
> pamphlets. That the undersigned busybody wants to get involved here
> is also because as a non-Brahmin he is slightly better placed than the
> Brahmins themselves who usually are too dignified to complain about
> their own plight.
>
> KE

Glad to be of help. Some more references:

Brahmin and Brahminism: A historical survey
by Raj Narain Arya
# Unknown Binding: 125 pages
# Publisher: Blumoon Books (2001)
# Language: English
# ISBN: 8187190523

True Brahminism in life and law (Vedic University series)
by M. K. Venkatesvara Aiyar
# Unknown Binding: 154 pages
# Publisher: Printed at the Madras Law Journal Press (1928)
# Language: English
# ASIN: B00088O9QA

Aryans, Jews, Brahmins: Theorizing Authority Through Myths of Identity
(Suny Series, the Margins of Literature)
by Dorothy Matilda Figueira
# Hardcover: 256 pages
# Publisher: State University of New York Press (October 1, 2002)
# Language: English
# ISBN: 0791455319

My Life With a Brahmin Family
by Lizelle Reymond
# Paperback
# Publisher: Penguin Putnam~trade
# ISBN: 0140033750

The Brahmins
by Eileen Lottman
# Publisher: Dell Publishing (March, 1984)
# ISBN: 0440102138

http://www.hindu.org/publications/ramswa...inism.html
The Colonial Genesis of Anti-Brahminism

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/...tharamaiah.html
HAIL BRAHMINISM

http://www.humnri.com/Humex/Submission/padma/padma2.asp
Brahmanism & Brahminism

http://hamsa.org/StThomas_Chapt_4.htm#elst
Anti-Brahminism
Koenraad Elst

http://www.hvk.org/specialrepo/mms/index.html
MANU, SANGH & I

Draft translation of Marathi Book -

Me, Manu Ani Sangh

by

RAMESH PATANGE

http://www.hinduismtoday.com/archives/19...9-12.shtml
Verdict from Belgium

http://www.ciil.org/announcement/MBE_progr...per/paper14.htm
INDIA AS A LITERARY AREA
Kikkeri Narayan

http://bharatvani.org/books/civilization/partI6.htm
"Anti-Brahminism has often become the most virulent form of castist
thinking." David Frawley

M. kelkar

12-20-2005, 04:54 AM

HISTORY OF SARASWATS - A story of migrations

12-20-2005, 04:55 AM

QUOTESaraswat Brahmans of Panjab
Link
Kalias belong to the Saraswat Brahmans of Panjab. Their gotra is Bharadwaj; their Veda is Shukla Yajurveda, Vajasaneyi Samhita. Traditionally they were purohits of the (i) Dhawan khatris (according to Rose and Ibbetson) (ii) Suri khatris (according to a publication of the Khatri Upakarak Sabha, Delhi) and (iii) Dhawan and Sood Khatris (according to B N Puri's The Khatris, a socio-historical study).

Their traditional habitat was the sub-montane and contiguous plains areas of Panjab (i.e. areas around Ludhiana, Jalandhar, Hoshiarpur, Amritsar, Gurdaspur). As far as I know, Chintpurni is the only village in Himachal Pradesh with a predominantly Kalia population.

Just like other social groups, they have also moved away from their traditional living areas and pursuits and have moved into other professions.


Kargil Hero Lt. Saurav Kalia also came from same village, his picture is now inside Mata Chintpurni temple.

12-20-2005, 08:41 AM

One of the few books i found on "Brahmanas in ancient India",by Govind Prasad Upadhyay, Munshiram Manoharlal Publishiers 1979, NewDelhi

I will review it later

12-22-2005, 11:02 PM

QUOTEReview of:
Hale, Christopher. _Himmler's Crusade - The Nazi Expedition to Find the Origins of the Aryan Race_. Wiley, 2003.

See also:
Goodrick-Clarke, Nicholas._The Occult Roots of Nazism: Secret Aryan Cults and Their Influence on Nazi Ideology : The Ariosophists of Austria and Germany, 1890-1935_NYU Press, 1994.

...These two books in various ways suggest reflecting on the mesclun of ideas from the ancient Medterranean world that had thoroughly permeated Europe, in these examples, Germany and Austria. From one amazon.com review:

"What's particularly interesting about Goodrick-Clarke's work is he compares the Ariosophists List and Lanz to the ancient dualist philosophies of Gnosticism and Manicheanism in their extreme division of reality into two eternally conflicting forces of good (Aryans) and evil (Jews).

...The political motivation for the rise of occultism in Germany and Austria was the situation of the Austro -Hungarian Empire and the Hapsburg monarchy. Prussia had permanently excluded Austria from a role in a united German state by Bismark's military victories before 1871. However the Austrian Empire encompassed not only Hungary but also many nationalities of Slavic, non-German descent, in addition to Jewish minorities. The status of Germans as a whole in Austria was tenuous and the conservative elements of the populace were more inclined to fall for unorthodox metaphysical beliefs that would allow them to fight against the tides of political liberalism in the Empire. Hitler, it is to be noted, was not actually born in "Germany" proper but in the Austro-Hungarian Empire near the German border. Goodrick-Clarke takes care to note that Hitler despised the Hapsburg monarchy, while his sectarian occultist predecessors admired it as a bastion of German mystical/mythica l tradition. In Vienna, during the late 1800s and early 1900s before World War I, two radical German nationalists, Guido von List and Adolf Lanz (who self-styled himself with the aristocratic title of von Liebenfels) researched and published a considerable amount of literature dealing with Germany's so-called repressed history. List believed that ancient, pagan, pre-Christian Germany was a center of culture kept alive by a secret order of initiates, the Armanenschaft, who established a decentralized aristocratic hierarchy and kept the German race pure through eugenic practices..."

In the nationalistic genesis of these kinds of reinvented traditions one can see parallels with the Hindutva movement: it's "repressed history", its high priests, the Brahmins; its allegedly super ancient indigenous origins; its motif of maintaining "racial purity" (Muslims get out), etc.

Joanna Kirkpatrick

Joanna Kirkpatrick considers herself scholar on Hindus.

Bharatvarsh · (This post was last modified: 12-24-2005, 08:02 AM by Bharatvarsh.)

QUOTEIn the nationalistic genesis of these kinds of reinvented traditions one can see parallels with the Hindutva movement: it's "repressed history", its high priests, the Brahmins; its allegedly super ancient indigenous origins; its motif of maintaining "racial purity" (Muslims get out), etc.
Seems like she doesn't know the first thing about Hindus/Hindutva/Hinduism, no one in the first place considers Hindus as a race (if anyone does they need to get their head checked), next no one wants to maintain racial purity here, if the Muslims (even the ones who claim foreign descent) want they can all become Hindus and intermarry with Hindus, this is the polar opposite of maintaining racial purity, the reason we want Muslims to get out is because they are not supposed to be there in the first place after partition not to maintain racial purity and as for Brahmins being high priests, most of the popular leaders are not Brahmins but so called lower castes (such as Uma Bharati, Modi and so on), most of the Sangh Parivar cadre come from these groups, she exposes her ignorance when she speaks about the racial purity nonsense because she has never even cared to read even elementary things about Hindutva before passing off as an expert, this is what Savarkar (person who coined the word Hindutva and wrote a book by that title) had to say (Savarkar like Tilak misguidedly accepted the AIT):

QUOTE"After all there is throughout this world so far as man is concerned but a single race -- the human race, kept alive by one common blood, the human blood. All other talk is at best provisional, a makeshift and only relatively true. Nature is constantly trying to overthrow the artificial barriers you raise between race and race. To try to prevent the commingling of blood is to build on sand. Sexual attraction has proved more powerful than all the commands of all the prophets put together. Even as it is, not even the aborigines of the Andamans are without some sprinkling of the so-called Aryan blood in their veins and vice-versa. Truly speaking all that one can claim is that one has the blood of all mankind in one's veins. The fundamental unity of man from pole to pole is true, all else only relatively so." (Hindutva, p.90)

http://www.swordoftruth.com/swordoftruth/a...elst/wvsan.html
She seems to have not read the book Hindutva itself before passing herself as an expert and spewing nonsense, this is like someone who has not read Das Kapital or any of the other works of influential Communist mass murderers (such as Stalin, Pol Pot etc) passing themselves off as experts on Communism.

12-24-2005, 10:54 AM

She is just being a good christian - cant stand anything good being said about pagans and the pre-christian culture. Ugly pagans had a thriving culture ? what ? cant be..

What is even more interesting is the subtle shift of blame from an essentially christian operation of nazi germany and the wide spread anti-semitism of christianity to the "occult roots"..

If I am not mistaken this post is from the den of anti-hindu bigotry - the Indo Eurasian list .. <!--emo& Smile

--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' />

12-24-2005, 02:18 PM

Why not take her on and refute what she says ina direct communication to her ?

If she ignores the communication we can assert she does not have the courage to defend her convictions. If she responds we can carry on an extended dialog that will give us plenty of ammunition for the future

12-24-2005, 10:59 PM

QUOTEJoanna Kirkpatrick, PhD UCB 1970 (Prior degrees Stanford and Yale). Cultural and Social Anthropologist. South Asia is my regional area of studies, both India and Bangladesh. Since my first fieldwork in Punjab, India in 1965-66, I have published in the fields of medical anthropology, women studies, and popular art in Bangladesh. All photo images, unless otherwise noted, are by the author. The International Folk Art Museum in Santa Fe, N.M.Â .

Her email address - jk2005st@yahoo.com

12-25-2005, 12:43 AM

The Mouths that Recited Vedas are Grieving

QUOTEBrahmins played an extraordinary role in the spread of knowledge and vitalizing the Indian society for millennia.Â Recently, in the freedom movement and national revitalization movements they proved their merit by playing their traditional role as usual.Â The Brahmins whose goals have been the enlightenment and prosperity of the society are leaving mainstream social, political and economic fields nowadays.Â Having merit is not enough to garner the positions in various fields and seats in schools in todayâs society blighted with reservations and quotas.Â It is high time they raise their voice against the injustice and get together to fight by blowing the conch of awakening (clarion call), says Parusuram.
Brahmins lost their traditional jobs such as karaneekam (clerk/accountant) and agraharas (land endowments). (It should be noted that Brahmins are not the priests in every temple.Â Temples like mutyalamma, poleramma, mahankali etc., where animal sacrifices are a norm, Brahmins are not priests. Further, only members of a few sects of Brahmins traditionally practice pourohityam (priesthood) and the rest are in various intellectual and non-intellectual avocations, which have dried up for Brahmins today.)Â Those Brahmins who are still in the field of pourohityam are also in trouble.Â These Brahmin priests are ridiculed and made fun of their traditions and practices (such as vegetarianism) and have become isolated.Â Poverty stricken Brahmins are unable to send their kids to schools and feed them properly.Â Brahmins, once considered a class at the top of the society, are now a new backward class. Â Their social status evaporated, but their pride didnât.Â They still talk about their past greatness and sagacity that they managed to make bitter foes into friends and forced goats and tigers to drink water from the same pond as great Brahmin Chanakya did with Chanakya neeti (political acumen).Â However, it is high time that they realize that dwelling in the past is not going to help them. They must come together and fight against the discrimination in every field in the modern Indian society.Â Brahmana Sadassu (Brahmin society) is calling on all Brahmins to wake up and fight the injustice today.Â Brahmins should put aside their tribal differences among the plethora of Brahmin tribes and sects to come together as one Brahmin family to fight for justice and their due share in the society.Â

The Brahmin disappearance from the prominence from the society will be quite evident if one considers the statistics of 1933, 1947 and 1975.Â For many Brahmins the hereditary vocations became compulsory for survival.Â Â But, in this modern society those vocations have no place.Â As a result Brahmins are migrating to cities for survival.Â They sold all their lands in the villages. Even the religious vocations like priesthood are not helping Brahmins anymore.Â Seventy percent of Brahmins are relying on their hereditary vocation. There are hundreds of families that are surviving on just Rs. 500 per month as priests in various temples. Devaadaya Sakha (Department of Endowments) with an income running into billions of rupees and politicians who perform prayers and pujas on a large scale donât care for the poor Brahmin priests.Â Â Priests are under tremendous difficulty today. They are forced to beg for alms for survival.Â There are innumerable instances in which Brahmin priests who spent a lifetime in studying Vedas are being ridiculed and disrespected.Â Even under such difficult situations, Brahmin priests are still preaching the importance of religious character and good moral character and the advantages and importance of such character in individuals for the society.Â Such Brahmin families that are financially downtrodden are forced to send their children into family vocation even though there is no income in those vocations.

01-07-2006, 04:37 AM

Nothing substantial but there is a blog on sulekha (stop anti-brahminism) and a few comments are pretty amazing.

http://www.sulekha.com/blogs/commentdisp...?cid=41119

QUOTEBrahminism was a real issue in TN. The Brahmins in TN dominated the political, bureaucratic and business landscape and discriminated against non brahmins. If you look at all those big mouthed atrocious characters - Mani Aiyer, Subramaniam Swamy, Kamal Hasan - they are all tamil brahmins. Somehow this character to dominate, behave nasty, is found in varying shades in the TN brahmins.

The Tam Brahms are extremely bright and brilliant. Their contribution to sciences, sports, mgmt (you name it!!) has been exemplary. In sheer intelligence they seem to peform very well. But this is no substitute to treating your fellow human beings with manners, compassion and dignity. Sadly Tam Brahms lack that. They are clanish, selfish, arrogant and mannerless. This is in direct contrast to non brahmin tamil culture - respectful, honestly, loyalty. Treating people with compassion and respect is the true measure of intellect. Not mindless reading of books.

Anyways having said that the Tam Brahm society itself is under tremendous change. For starters they have migrated to different places (Mumbai, Bangalore, US) and this is rubbing off on the community. Divorce rates / Pre Marital Sex / are taking their toll on this close knit and selfish community. While the short term effects are bad in the long term this is leading to these smart people adapting and taking the best of both worlds - intellect with manners and simple human values.

and

QUOTEPlease do some soul searching and you may find the answers. The basic principle in life should be- deserve before you desire.Who is responsible for the present situation? Think over. Who is a brahamin- one by by birth or by his karma? Do remember the stories of - Aklavya and Karna.

01-14-2006, 01:23 AM

QUOTEIntroduce welfare measures for temple priests'
Monday January 9 2006 10:35 IST
THIRUVANANTHAPURAM: "The moves to oust Brahmins from their traditional vocation of performing temple rites and rituals will lead to utter doom of the Brahmin community as a whole," a statement from the Akshaya Kalapeetom said.

The Akshaya Kalapeetom, an all-Kerala organisation working for the preservation of temple rituals and for the protection and welfare of Veda Mantra Yagna Acharyas, has said that nobody should be allowed to snatch away the traditional priesthood rights of the Brahmins.

Reacting to the issue of non-Brahmin priests, Akshaya Kalapeetom general secretary G.N.Nampoothiry said in a statement here on Sunday that thousands of Brahmins were eking out a living by performing the traditionally-learnt system of rites and rituals.

The fundamentals of several mantrams and poojas are based on advices given by the senior members of the Brahmin family to the youngsters at the time of initiation into the sacred world of mantrams, poojas and thantrik rites, he said.

The moves to deprive the Brahmins of their traditional vocation will drive the Brahmin community into a suicidal situation, said G.N.Nampoothiry.

He sought the introduction of welfare measures for all the thantris, melsanthis and kazhakakkars of the various temples in the state.

agnivayu · (This post was last modified: 01-14-2006, 08:26 PM by agnivayu.)

First of all, Brahmins are a small minority in the country. Since when can 5% of the population control the rest, especially when they had no weapons. This anti-Brahminism started with the British, because they thought if we destroy them then Hinduism will fall. Muslim and Christian militants continue this practice.

People at the street level know that most of the so called caste discrminiation is commited not by Brahmins but by other dalits etc.

My message to these Christian nuts who keep attacking us. Hinduism is not only very likely to survive your missionary assault, but is going to become a very powerful force in the world within 30-50 years. Do you really want us to remember then how you treated us when we were in a weaker position ?
Perhaps it is wiser for you to see the limits of your power, and accept the diversity in our world ?

03-23-2006, 02:16 AM

xpost from Dravidianist movement thread..

QUOTE(Bharatvarsh @ Mar 22 2006, 10:52 AM)<div class='quotetop'>QUOTEThe boy who gives a truer picture of 'Periyar'
V SUNDARAM

I recently interviewed M Venkatesan, a 'Dalit', whose family has been living in a slum area called Hanumanthapuram in Triplicane during the last 25 years. I am specifically mentioning the fact that he belongs to the Dalit community only to take the wind from the sails of self-styled, castiest and communalist Dravidian leaders who often pride themselves as saviours, champions, protectors and upholders of the backward and suppressed communities in Tamilnadu under the political umbrella of 'self-respect' and 'social justice'. Venkatesan is a bright, hardworking and precocious young man who has taken his MA in Philosophy from Vivekananda College, Chennai. He told me that when he joined the Vivekananda College, he had to face a barrage of difficult and unanswerable questions from his fellow students on the so-called 'revolutionary and unprecedented' contribution of 'Periyar E V Ramasamy Naicker' to the emancipation and liberation of the oppressed and suppressed communities in Tamilnadu. Finding himself in a state of siege, Venkatesan, being a Dalit himself, took the initiative of researching into almost all the publications brought out by 'Periyar Suyamariyadai Prachara Nilayam' and also into the writings of Periyar's contemporaries like Annadurai, M P Sivagnanam, comrade Jeevanandam, KAP Viswanathan, etc. Not being totally satisfied he went through all the magazines and journals like 'Viduthalai', 'Kudiyarasu', 'Dravida Naadu', 'Dravidan' etc, relating to the period during which Periyar lived in order to ascertain the truth and also to get hold of solid and irrefutable facts.

As a great believer in Hinduism and Hindu philosophy, his sensitive soul was tortured by the baseless attacks of Periyar on Hindu Gods and Goddesses. I would like to quote his own words in this context: 'I could not help viewing Periyar's uncivilised and barbarous attacks upon my chosen Gods and Goddesses and my own Hindu faith as wanton attacks on my dear and sacred mother who begot me. My search into the works of Periyar and my extensive reading of all his articles gave a rude cultural shock to me. I was greatly dismayed by the hellish hatred of Periyar towards my faith and towards my chosen Gods and Goddesses'.

Hatred of Brahmins and hatred of Hindu Gods, these according to Venkatesan were the only pith and pin of Periyar's public life.
According to Venkatesan, Periyar was a man of virulent contradictions, inexplicable incongruities and inchoate insensitivities. As he very much wanted these facts to be made known to the public he has written a book in Tamil entitled 'E V Ramasamy Naickarin Marupakkam' (The other side of E V Ramasamy Naickar).

During the course of my interview, he told me with an anguished feeling that if only people cared to read my book on 'E V Ramasamy Naickar', then they will clearly understand how some sections of people in Tamilnadu, behaving like heads of cattle, were brainwashed into the hero-worship of E V Ramasamy Naickar, completely ignoring the inherent and fundamental contradictions in his self-proclaimed ideologies founded only on communal hatred of Brahmins and atheistic hatred of Hindu Gods. Venkatesan's view is that Periyar wrongly thought that when he attacked Brahmins, he was attacking Hinduism and when he attacked Hinduism, he was attacking Brahmins. At the same time, the comedy is that Periyar had very warm feelings towards the Gods of Islam and Christianity. 'I am really ashamed of those people who have veneration for E V Ramasamy Naickar and his perverse philosophy of selective hatred of men and things. I am no less rational or serious than him when I say this', observed Venkatesan.

Venkatesan emphatically declared that Periyar did nothing for the emancipation of the oppressed and suppressed dalits. On the contrary he was inimical towards all the dalits whom he treated with utmost contempt. His contempt for the dalits (90 per cent) was only exceeded by his hatred for the Brahmins (100 per cent). To quote from Venkatesan's book: Periyar said: 'The attempt to promote 'temple entry' and 'abolition of untouchability' by the Congress leaders should not result in the tragedy of people belonging to the backward classes getting reduced to the level of scheduled castes. Instead of attempting to raise the status of Scheduled Castes (Parayans), an attempt should not be made to reduce the status of backward Class (Sudrans) by relegating them to the levels of Scheduled Castes. On no account should the existing status of Sudrans be reduced to the level of Parayans'. Venkatesan says in his book that Periyar's contempt if not hatred for the dalits was shown in another context by his flash
observation: 'One of the main reasons why there is an upward trend in the prices of clothes and textiles is that women belonging to the Scheduled Castes (Parachies) have started wearing blouses these days. The reason for growing unemployment in society is on account of increasing number of people belonging to Scheduled Castes (Parayans) taking to school education and higher education'. Venkatesan concludes that Periyar was a sworn enemy of dalits, their education, emancipation, growth and development. 'As a dalit I have come to this definite conclusion based upon Periyar's golden thoughts, observations and averments on my dalit community', says Venkatesan.

Even a cursory reading of Venkatesan's book will show how Periyar, who was always concerned with the self-respect of the Dravidian race, and more particularly the Tamil race, upheld the glory, the greatness and the grandeur of the Tamil language for over 70 years through his historic and time-defying observations and writings which will ring across centuries. Here are a few pearls from 'Periyarana' cited by Venkatesan in his book:

'For more than 40 years, I have been describing Tamil as a barbarous language (Kattumirandi Mozhi) used only by barbarians. When Brahmins and the Brahmin-dominated government wanted to make Hindi a State language, I started, to a very limited extent, advocating the promotion of Tamil language only to oppose the imposition of Hindi language. The only language that ought to replace Tamil is English. What is not there in English which can be found in Tamil Language?'

Periyar's patriotism and love for our nation are brought out in his own statement: 'Though I might have blocked the exit of the Englishmen from India, though I might have betrayed in a treasonable manner the cause of India's freedom, I have not been a party to the installation of sinners from the Brahmin community with its fall out effects of domination of people from Northern India backed by the lust for money power, paraphernalia of public offices and self-interest'.

I have quoted only very very sparingly from the book authoured by Venkatesan. In order to fully understand the truth-defying greatness of 'Periyar' and Periyarism in proper perspective, one has to read this book from end to end with great care and caution, inspired by the shadow ideals of 'self-respect' and 'rationalism'.

I view Venkatesan as a symbol of a new awakening among the youth in Tamilnadu. I am quite impressed by his zest for learning, thoroughness in his approach to academic research and above all his fearless gentlemanliness deriving its unassailable strength from his passion for truth and justice. Venkatesan lamented: 'The trouble with Tamilnadu is that prejudice often scores a victory over principle. Prejudice, which sees what it pleases, cannot see what is plain. I only wanted to pursue plain truth and nothing else'.

http://www.newstodaynet.com/2006sud/06mar/0803ss1.htm
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04-08-2006, 02:07 AM

From another forum..

QUOTENone! That is, if I speak for the masses.

I want to say this is all humility Dr. [edited], but not reverentially, that brahmins have NO role in Hindu reform. They can encourage, be the inspirants, advisors, cheerleaders, etc., but it is we, the people, who must lead, set the parameters and determine the expected outcome, whatever it is.

I have in the past called on brahmins to move to secular careers, leave the subcontinent even. There is no malice here. Its best for everybody.

We will make calamitous tragic mistakes even. But great souls will rise amongst us and eventually we will make it and lead the world.

I like to be wrong on this one, but it seems to me that yet again it will be the south Indians, the Tamils specifically, who will have to lead this reform. The other subcontinental cultures are just not passionate enough, not audacious enough to throw the dice, and just wait for the tamils to light the fuse. You see, for the tamils, something is always wrong and needs to be fixed.Â <!--emo& Smile

--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' />
Look at me. Better still, look at yourself!

04-08-2006, 03:07 AM

QUOTEI have in the past called on brahmins to move to secular careers, leave the subcontinent even. There is no malice here. Its best for everybody
The bulb seems to be dim in the upper attic.

04-11-2006, 01:07 AM

QUOTEI want to say this is all humility Dr. [edited], but not reverentially, that brahmins have NO role in Hindu reform. They can encourage, be the inspirants, advisors, cheerleaders, etc., but it is we, the people, who must lead, set the parameters and determine the expected outcome, whatever it is.

Dalits respond to this internet anti-Brahmin.. <img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/cheers.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='cheers.gif' />
Must be really hurting if ordinary Indians seem to have more brains than this keyboard genuis

QUOTEDalits build own temple in Orissa
[ Monday, April 10, 2006 10:14:53 amIANS ]
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/artic...483941.cms

RSS Feeds| SMS NEWS to 8888 for latest updates

KENDRAPADA (ORISSA): Denied entry into a temple in Orissa by the upper castes, Dalits of a village have built a shrine of their own and appointed a Brahmin priest.Â <img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/guitar.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='guitar.gif' />

Chauriberhampur village on the outskirts of Kendrapada town in the coastal district of the same name is home to nearly 1,400 people from different castes as well as Muslims. It has a temple dedicated to Hindu god Shiva where Dalits and other lower castes were being denied entry as part of an age-old practice.

"There are 900 people in the village who belong to the 'hadi' (scavenger) community and considered lower castes," said Dalit leader Abhumunya Naik.

Most of them clean streets, toilets and do other odd jobs.

"We have been worshipping Hindu goddess Maa Mangala in an open place. We decided to build a temple in that place for the deity," Naik told.

"People from our caste not only contributed financially but also built the 30-feet high temple. It was completed last month at a cost of nearly Rs.200,000."

Naik said Krupasindhu Patri, a Sanskrit scholar, had been appointed the priest of the temple at a monthly salary of Rs.1,000.

"We appointed a Brahmin priest because they know how to perform the rituals," he said.

Please forward this to California education board too....fake dalits should hang their head in shame somewhere <img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/blow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='blow.gif' />

Sunder · (This post was last modified: 05-17-2006, 03:33 AM by Sunder.)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4986616.stm

Tamil Nadu breaks caste barrier

The order will be implemented in all the state's temples
The new government in India's Tamil Nadu state has decided to end the monopoly of Brahmins and high-caste Hindus in the state's temples.Since when did the temple become the 'state's private property' in a 'secular' state? Why is this intereference with religious matters not done to churches and mosques?
It has decided that priests in Hindu temples all over the state will be drawn from every caste.

Until now, the priesthood in Tamil Nadu had been the exclusive preserve of high-caste Hindus, especially Brahmins.

The new government, led by the DMK party, took office in Tamil Nadu after state elections earlier this month.

The DMK has a history of fighting against what it calls "the domination of Brahmins and the concept of Brahmanism in the fields of education, employment, religion and social hierarchy".

Party president and new Chief Minister M Karunanidhi - despite being a self-declared atheist - tried to appoint temple priests from all castes when he ruled the state in the early 1970s.

But his government's order was struck down by the courts.

Court judgement

Mr Karunanidhi says his latest order is based on a Supreme Court judgment delivered in 2002 which said that non-Brahmins could be appointed as priests as long as they were qualified to carry out the duties.

Mr Karunanidhi is pinning his hopes on a court order

Not all Hindu temples have Brahmins for priests.

There are several temples in villages, where local residents belonging to various castes other than Brahmins act as priests.

But bigger and more famous temples that attract more devotees and earn more revenue have only Brahmins as priests.

Tamil Nadu has a long history of rivalry between Brahmins and non-Brahmins in all walks of life including politics, religion and social spheres.

Their differences even once sparked a movement for a separate "Dravidian nation" with Tamil Nadu breaking away from the rest of India - Dravidian being a term used to describe non-Brahmins as one group.

Some analysts describe Mr Karunanidhi as the last surviving patriarch of the Dravidian movement. His rival, AIADMK leader J Jayalalitha, who was ousted from power in the recent polls, is a Brahmin by birth.

05-23-2006, 03:56 AM

Are Brahmins still our shatrus?

QUOTEAre Brahmins still our shatrus?

There are two portraits in front of you. One is of a Brahmin and the other, of a Shudra, (Vokkaliga to be precise). You have the option of blackening the face of only one of them, whom would you prefer?" was my straightforward question to a very enlightened and committed Kannad Dalit intellectual friend during a recent visit to Bangalore. His reply was instantaneous. "Brahmin," he quipped. I was not surprised. If one were to conduct a survey, to begin with, of Dalit NRIs, and pose the same question, the answer may be the same. Back home, enlightened Dalits, writers, university and school teachers, babus, civil servants and even clerks will be unanimous in their choice of blackening the Brahmin's face out.

And why not? Brahmins created hierarchical social order, scripted viperous notions of "purity" and "pollution", and accorded a divine sanction to their criminal ideological pursuit. Not the Theory of Relativity or Quantum Mechanics, but the mephitic notion of Untouchability and Tribals' seclusion sprung from their antennae, artlessly stalled on that grey heap, at best a reservoir of low quality compost. The Brahmins instead of repenting their unlit antecedents, often take pride in it. Thus, there is no reason why a Dalit should have any compassion for Brahmins. Brahmins, in Dalits' ideological kingdom, will always remain prime target.

But my discourse with the Kannad Dalit was rather prolonged. "Suppose a Vokkaliga smashes a Dalit, or molests his wife, who should the Dalit (victim) fight against?" was my next question. "Obviously against that Vokkaliga," he replied. "Who are the biggest tormentors of Dalits in the Kannad countryside: Brahmins or Vokkaliga-like Shudras?" I carried on. My Kannad friend pondered a bit and replied, "Mostly Shudras or what we call Backward Classes." Quoting census figures I reminded him that nearly 80 per cent Kannad Dalits live in the countryside, and a majority of them are landless agricultural labourers. "Tell me Sir," I asked a very blunt question, "Whom should the Kannad Dalit movement target first - Brahmins or Shudras?" By now, my Dalit friend had turned more thoughtful, and probably understood what I meant to convey.

During my second and final break from JNU in 1991, when I launched Dalit Shiksha Andolan in UP, I had the opportunity to travel to all parts of the state. As far back as 1993 itself, I had sincerely begun believing that the community's intellectual articulations are more derived from the past than today's "lived" experiences. Back in JNU, this time as an unauthorised guest, I began thinking afresh, also taking into account my experiences as an "ML" full-timer in my first break from JNU (1993-1987). I very deeply felt that the thinking Dalit, including myself, has somehow become a prisoner of the past, and for any successful battle of emancipation, the emancipators themselves must emancipate first. Wailing for freedom, I fought within myself, and won over myself. I presented my paper titled, "Social Changes in India since Independence: a Dalit Perspective", in Teen Murti in 1996. I argued that in India's social ordering, there is a dramatic intra-structural re-ordering, wherein Shudras have replaced Dwijas as the dominant ruling coalition in the countryside.

While Dwijas are faced with the freighting prospect of becoming politically irrelevant, Dalits are confronted with Shudras as their immediate tormentors, and hence, for their own reasons, Dalits and Dwijas are destined to form a common political coalition against marauding Shudras. The BSP theorists, initially hostile to my theorisation, have come to ultimately settle at what I argued eight years back.

What we understand by "Dalit vision" or "Dalit Perspective", is articulated not by ordinary Dalit masses, or grassroot activists. That doesn't happen anywhere in the world. Theorisation of social dynamics is undertaken by the elite, or middle classes. In case of Dalit intellectuals, most of them are first or second-generation educated, born, brought up, and schooled in rural societies where they have seen the Brahmin mind at work. A mind that is conspiratorial, instigating Kammas or Yadavs to hit at Dalits. Such Dalits are now settled in urban centres and face these Brahmins everywhere. Whether it is an officer transferring you to some godforsaken place, a Brahman editor refusing to democratise the edit page, or a Brahman VC refusing to appoint Dalits as teachers.

The "imprisoned" Dalit mind is not voluntary, but circumstantial. Because the articulate Dalit mind has not been able to revisit the countryside with a social inquest, and with a resolve to theorise intra-structural re-ordering of Indian society during past five decades. Thus, if Jat-Sikhs traumatise Dalits of Telhan, Dalit writers like us sitting in Delhi may be found cursing Brahmins. This is a great social drama refusing to unfold any further. All this while, Shudra is sitting pretty and smiling.

05-23-2006, 04:08 AM

The main problem with 'dalits' is they cant think beyond blackening somebodys face. A sorry state where a nation is dominated with such idiotic discourse. This and that Arjun Singh interview and I have had my share for the day.. <img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/grenade.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='grenade.gif' />

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