Anti Brahminism

[Guest]

I came to know about droit de signeur during Satavaha rule from a small History book.I haven't noticed it after reading Kamasutra.Hopefully,the search feature of the link enabled me to post that info.I do not remember Kamasutras or its content by heart.

[Guest]

<span style='color:red'>Tarun,

Your post are queued for now. No personal attack on members are permitted.
Only sensible and related to thread post will be displayed
First surf and watch, how others write
</span>

[Guest]

<b>Bhavishya Purana is not an authentic Purana at this point.</b> Because it is full or prophecies and predictions, it is the Purana with the most interpolations from people living in the Islamic and the Christian Era. Here is a link from the Vaishnava News Network. Search for the word "Bhavishya": Link to an article from the Vaishnava News Network

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-Tarun+Jul 4 2006, 10:32 AM-->QUOTE(Tarun @ Jul 4 2006, 10:32 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->
<!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->The problem with the above quote, Tarun, is that it speaks of relations between a king and his subjects. Nowhere does it mention that high-caste men in general have the 'right of the first night' with lower-caste women.

So, the conclusions about caste that you have drawn earlier are unfounded.

Kings and rulers have done many things, to blame caste for that is to stretch logic beyond breaking point.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

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Satavahans are supposed to have descended from a mix of aboriginal Nagas as well as Brahmins.
The origin legend of their first king seems to have a parallel with the origin of kings who constructed Khajuraho temples.The only difference is you have the moon god in place of Serpent king god ,in case of Khajuraho kings.


I would also like to add that though I was not discriminated,I was asked my caste sometimes by my teachers as well fellow classmates.
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So, you have no evidence for the 'right of the first night' post you made about upper castes having sex with lower caste brides before sending them off home. Except for a specific dynasty of kings, who may have had sex with brides (for all we know, they may be upper caste brides), you have no evidence at all of anything.

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-vishwas+Jul 4 2006, 08:18 PM-->QUOTE(vishwas @ Jul 4 2006, 08:18 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->
So, you have no evidence for the 'right of the first night' post you made about upper castes having sex with lower caste brides before sending them off home. Except for a specific dynasty of kings, who may have had sex with brides (for all we know, they may be upper caste brides), you have no evidence at all of anything.
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Don't hold your breath. Much like anti-semitism, anti-brahminism is a disease, a systemic one. Ask for a list of complaints, and you will get a list of contradictory reasons, nay excuses, illogical and irrational. Ask for a real brahminic threat, you will get none, it is all in someone's (we all know who) head.

Irrational thinking, fears etc is common enough in each and everyone (of us), and when anti-brahminism is added in, irrational thinking becomes not only instinctual but systemic. For example, an experienced "social worker" or "social justice crusader" and academics are constantly looking for "evidence" to confirm their fixation, and invariably finds it (ust as a Marxists or social engineers, looking for "proof," and voila!, constantly uncovers events that confirms the whys and hows of Indian/Hindu society works. (Marx's analysis method). It also dovetails nicely or a complement to continuing colonial ways of looking at non-western traditions - negation and debasement, rhetorical strategies, which pave way for "superior culture, race & social reformers" to thwart evil brahmin designs. <!--emo&:blink:--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/blink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='blink.gif' /><!--endemo-->

Tarun and any other lurkers, let us start with - if you can cogently put together a list of non contradictory reasons for the hatred, backed of course with evidence and not copy&paste from questionable sources, and no anecdotal experiences or evidences either - they do not make a basis for a sound, open and rational discussion which ought to facilitate bridging the gaps and not deepen them. Let us take the way forward not backward.

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-Tarun+Jul 4 2006, 11:55 AM-->QUOTE(Tarun @ Jul 4 2006, 11:55 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->[Edited-
We don't allow personal attack
-Admin]
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Thanks Moderator ! Appreciate your intervention.
Let's move on with constructive discussions .

[Guest]

<b>How to destroy a people in god’s name</b>
<i>By Dr. Gautam Sen</i>


Tinyurl: http://tinyurl.com/q6svu

[Guest]

We need an India based on merit, not on caste
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->But what about the Thakurs, the farmers and landlords, who have such a bad reputation in Bihar and UP, as having huge lands and exploiting the lower castes?

A paper by D Narayana, Centre for Development Studies, Thiruvananthpuram ('Perception, Poverty and Health: A Contribution' CICRED Seminar on Poverty and Health, February 2005), shows that <b>69.8 per cent of Brahmins and OUC never went past the 12th standard, that 52.4 per cent of Brahmins and OUC farmers don't own land bigger than 100 cents, quite insufficient to nourish a family, and that that 53.9 per cent of the upper caste population is below poverty line.</b>

So much for the clichés and prejudices in India about Brahmins and Thakurs.

Narayana thus concludes: 'Just as the higher ritual status of Brahmins does not necessarily translate into economic or political supremacy, those lower in the ranks are able to move up in the local hierarchy through the capture of political power, the acquisition of land, and migration to other regions. A combination of these strategies and India's policy of quotas or reservations have particularly benefited the so-called backward castes, or Shudras. Referred to as 'other backward classes' (OBCs) in administrative parlance, backward castes are defined as those whose ritual rank and occupational status are above 'untouchables' but who themselves remain socially and economically depressed. Contrary to the general presumption that the OBCs belong to the deprived sections of Hindu society, few groups in independent India have made progress on a scale comparable to the OBCs.'

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[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->69.8 per cent of Brahmins and OUC never went past the 12th standard
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

What?

G. Subramaniam said the average Brahmana IQ is 115+.

How come nearly 70% of Brahmanas can't even go to college?

Are Brahmanas that stupid?

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->But what about the Thakurs, the farmers and landlords, who have such a bad reputation in Bihar and UP, as having huge lands and exploiting the lower castes?
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

This is all just propoganda.

The problem is the modern day Rajputs have become soft and decadent.
Too much Bollywood movies & pornography is the reason.

They need to get their guns & swords out. Need more traditional Vedic Kshatriya discipline. Time to show who is the boss.

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-mitradena+Jul 12 2006, 12:02 AM-->QUOTE(mitradena @ Jul 12 2006, 12:02 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->69.8 per cent of Brahmins and OUC never went past the 12th standard
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

What?
G. Subramaniam said the average Brahmana IQ is 115+.
How come nearly 70% of Brahmanas can't even go to college?
Are Brahmanas that stupid?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Perhaps, he means Brahmins in TN? Also, GS might not have a basis for these numerical values. Perhaps, he means to use them relatively, in the context of his essay?

[Hauma Hamiddha]

<!--QuoteBegin-mitradena+Jul 11 2006, 01:32 PM-->QUOTE(mitradena @ Jul 11 2006, 01:32 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->They need to get their guns & swords out. Need more traditional Vedic Kshatriya discipline. Time to show who is the boss.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Importantly when Aryavarta is occupied or under threat from dasyus and mlechChas, it is incumbent on the brAhmaNa to himself take up arms and destroy the enemies of dharma. Thus medhatithi has said in his commentary on the great mAnava dharma shAstra. No way is it said in the shAstras that the brahmin should not wield weapons under such circumstances. Since Moslems and dasyus are indeed occupying Aryavarta today the brAhmaNas themselves need to get aggressive.

[Guest]

Post 111:
In another thread, http://www.india-forum.com/forums/index.ph...=60&#entry53603, I'd written:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->[1200BC...] all brahmana communities then ... as a general rule did not ever practise warfare<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->'General rule': when society was in the correct state, there would be kshatriyas to defend the nation; wars in the Indian subcontinent would leave all non-kshatriya Varnas in peace, in general. Therefore there was no need for the brahmana to take up arms, just like there was no need for farmers and artisans and others to do so either.
Brahmanas weren't compelled to always practise non-violence. There are many examples in our literature and oral tradition of well-trained brahmanas who also served as teachers for kshatriya students. Some of them even wielded weapons in battle (Drona, Parashurama, some whom the ancient Greeks came in contact with and later some communities the Islamised Arabians came across).

However, the Greeks of course did not know that certain parts of Indian society were off limits during war. They assumed everyone was fair game and a potential opponent, when it came to waging war on Indian soil or among Indian communities settled abroad.

Then came Islam. Their Jihad, being an all-out total war, had no respect for those who do not fight back (it had no respect for those who surrendered either). And with that, we can do away with the general rule, as you've indicated by referring to the following and medhatithi:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->when... occupied or under threat from dasyus and mlechChas, it is incumbent on the brAhmaNa to himself take up arms and destroy the enemies of dharma.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->When there is no respect for the position of non-warriors, then everyone should enter into the fight. Unlike the internal battles and wars between Indian kings and Indian states, Islam, being diametrically opposite, poses a war against dharma. I think your phrase 'the brahmana himself' indicates that even the brahmana (of whom non-violence is generally expected) should not sit by idle when dharma is in danger. Hence, I'd say it is incumbent on all Hindus including brahmanas to take up arms and take up the position of kshatriyas, especially since Islam ended most of our old kshatriya communities.
If others are unable, then brahmanas on their own should at least attempt it. Basically, whoever can, should. Period.
It's true that when Jihad is waging outside, it's no time to be preoccupied with the usual duties of brahmanas (although the teachings should still be passed on). If we don't act now, there will be no time for imparting knowledge to following generations in the future.

[Guest]

Post 111 again.
I've dug out an old email I received containing statements of the Mahayogi Aurobindo (among others) and extracted some applicable ones. Even though he might have spoken about the freedom movement, it is still very applicable (the term 'Samurai' appears to have been used to serve as an illustration):
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->* The virtue of the Brahmin is a great virtue. You shall not kill. This is what Ahimsa means. <b>If the virtue of Ahimsa comes to the Kshatriya</b>, if you say I will not kill, there is no one to protect the country. The happiness of the people will be broken down. Injustice and lawlessness will reign. <b>The virtue becomes a source of misery, and you become instrumental in bringing misery and conflict to the people.</b>
* It is a barren philosophy which applies a mechanical rule to all actions, or takes a word and tries to fit all human life into it. The sword of the warrior is as necessary to the fulfilment of justice and righteousness as the holiness of the saint. Ramdas is not complete without Shivaji. To maintain justice and prevent the strong from despoiling and the weak from being oppressed is the function for which the Kshatriya was created. Therefore, says Sri Krishna in the Mahabharat, God created battle and armour, the sword, the bow and the dagger.
* The Kshatriya was a Kshatriya not merely because he was the son of warriors and princes, but because he discharged the duty of protecting the country and preserving the high courage and manhood of the nation, and he had to cultivate the princely temperament and acquire the strong and lofty Samurai training which alone fitted him for his duties.
* [The new Nationalism] is the rebirth in India of the Kshatriya...
* Politics is the work of the Kshatriya and <b>it is the virtues of the Kshatriya we must develop if we are to be morally fit for freedom</b>.
* We reiterate with all the emphasis we can command that <b>the Kshatriya of old must again take his rightful position in our social polity to discharge the first and foremost duty of defending its interests</b>. The brain is impotent without the right arm of strength.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Buddhism appears to have preached the virtue of Ahimsa to the Kshatriyas it converted. But this doesn't seem to be the case in Sri Lanka, where the Buddhists are quite active in defending their Dharma from Christianity, albeit through non-violent means so far.
I think that solves it. A Hindu saint like Aurobindo has sensibly reasoned that we will never survive without the kshatriya position being occupied at all times. I think with 800 million Hindus, we are bound to have s large number of loyal ones who have the willingness, the ability and strength of mind to fulfill it. It's well past time for brave Hindus from any Varna to step into kshatriya shoes and do the needful.

The pacifist "Peace at any cost" parlance so popular in the west - the same West which still knows but little about Jihad - has infiltrated and emasculated our nation for long enough.
No Peace at the cost of dharma, thanks. There are some things we should be willing to fight for, even die for. Else we are nothing but cowards with no principles and then we deserve to be destroyed and forgotten.

[Guest]

Husky, Hauma Hamiddha,

If we want to militarize, we need to change the culture from the ground up.

Look at what the "Rednecks" in the American south do.

From a very young age all the boys go out hiking or hunting in the forests with their fathers, uncles & neighbors.

When a boy turns 16 he gets a gun for a present.
They have a strong outdoor culture.


Compare that with modern Indian culture.
Eat ladoo, samosa & drink beer.

Watch some bollywood movies, buy a stash of porn magazines and attend a stupid ghazal or Indi-pop concert in the evening.


Compare that with the vedic culture mentioned in the Mahabharata & Ramayana.
Rama, Arjuna, Duryodhana, Ravana all spending a good part of the day exercising in an Akhara or going hunting in forests.

Even non-militaristic people like Agastya were sturdy foresters. They knew how to survive in the wild.

You take modern urban Indian and put him in the forest, he will die within 3 days either due to fear or lack of food.

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-rajesh_g+Jun 9 2005, 04:04 AM-->QUOTE(rajesh_g @ Jun 9 2005, 04:04 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Guys just wanted to record the following interesting posts from Sri M Kelkar on IC.. Other admins might move the post(s) to appropriate places. I havent read it but would like to read it when I find time..

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IndianCivili...n/message/75957

<!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->ANTI - BRAHMANISM, THE NEW COMMUNALISM OF MODERN INDIA: David Frawley
http://www.hindubooks.org/david_frawley/aw...anism/page7.htm

Anti-Brahminism
Koenraad Elst
http://hamsa.org/StThomas_Chapt_4.htm#elst

http://www.geocities.com/ifihhome/articles/mj002.html
The Plight of Brahmins

By Meenakshi Jain

he tragedy of being a Tamil Brahmin
http://www.anothersubcontinent.com/forums/...topic=2088&st=0

http://www.vepachedu.org/Recommendations.html
Recommendations to Brahmana Sadassu

http://www.vepachedu.org/brahmana-tribe.ht...cited_Vedas_are
The Mouths that Recited Vedas are Grieving

http://www.chennaionline.com/colnews/newsi...DE-48F6-9\
775-125C409B40CE%7D&CATEGORYNAME=National
BSP to organise Brahmin Sammelan on Feb 20

http://www.sulekha.com/expressions/article....asp?cid=306467
Myth of Brahminical Hegemony
Moor Nam

Many Brahaman houselholds were burnt in Maharashtra after Gandhi's
assasination. The last name Godse is almost non existant today
because people had it changed.

to be continued.

M. Kelkar<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IndianCivili...n/message/75987

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->--- In IndianCivilization@yahoogroups.com, "koenraad_elst"
<koenraad.elst@p...> wrote:
> --- In IndianCivilization@yahoogroups.com, "mkelkar2003"
> <smykelkar@c...> wrote:
> > An anti anti Brahman (and hence a pro Brahman) book is not a good
> idea
> > because Brahmans are the last ones to complain or rely on counter
> > propoganda to repond in kind to Dalistan.
> >
> > M. Kelkar
>
>
> Thanks already for your list of available material. It goes without
> saying that a book on anti-Brahminism should not have the same hateful
> and victimhood-cultivating tone of the typical anti-Brahmin
> pamphlets. That the undersigned busybody wants to get involved here
> is also because as a non-Brahmin he is slightly better placed than the
> Brahmins themselves who usually are too dignified to complain about
> their own plight.
>
> KE

Glad to be of help. Some more references:

Brahmin and Brahminism: A historical survey
by Raj Narain Arya
# Unknown Binding: 125 pages
# Publisher: Blumoon Books (2001)
# Language: English
# ISBN: 8187190523

True Brahminism in life and law (Vedic University series)
by M. K. Venkatesvara Aiyar
# Unknown Binding: 154 pages
# Publisher: Printed at the Madras Law Journal Press (1928)
# Language: English
# ASIN: B00088O9QA

Aryans, Jews, Brahmins: Theorizing Authority Through Myths of Identity
(Suny Series, the Margins of Literature)
by Dorothy Matilda Figueira
# Hardcover: 256 pages
# Publisher: State University of New York Press (October 1, 2002)
# Language: English
# ISBN: 0791455319

My Life With a Brahmin Family
by Lizelle Reymond
# Paperback
# Publisher: Penguin Putnam~trade
# ISBN: 0140033750

The Brahmins
by Eileen Lottman
# Publisher: Dell Publishing (March, 1984)
# ISBN: 0440102138

http://www.hindu.org/publications/ramswa...inism.html
The Colonial Genesis of Anti-Brahminism

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/...tharamaiah.html
HAIL BRAHMINISM

http://www.humnri.com/Humex/Submission/padma/padma2.asp
Brahmanism & Brahminism

http://hamsa.org/StThomas_Chapt_4.htm#elst
Anti-Brahminism
Koenraad Elst

http://www.hvk.org/specialrepo/mms/index.html
MANU, SANGH & I

Draft translation of Marathi Book -

Me, Manu Ani Sangh

by

RAMESH PATANGE

http://www.hinduismtoday.com/archives/19...9-12.shtml
Verdict from Belgium

http://www.ciil.org/announcement/MBE_progr...per/paper14.htm
INDIA AS A LITERARY AREA
Kikkeri Narayan

http://bharatvani.org/books/civilization/partI6.htm
"Anti-Brahminism has often become the most virulent form of castist
thinking." David Frawley

M. kelkar<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
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The celibate-student and the ascetic alike follow the dharma of their respective asramas (stages of life) not in association with anyone else. The householder has to conduct the karma as well as the dharma of domestic life with his wife as a companion, such being the rule laid down in the sastras. The dharma of domestic life is their common property. Only a householder with a wife may perform sacrifices, not student-bachelors and ascetics. If the wife were meant only for sensual gratification, would the dharmasastras have insisted that a man cannot perform sacrifices after her death? Women's libbers, who note that a woman cannot perform a sacrifice on her own, must also recognise that fact that the husband loses the right for the same without the wife and this is according to the Vedas themselves. ("Patnivatasya agnihotram bhavati". ) A great man lamented thus at the time of his wife's death: "You have taken away all my sacrifices as well as other rituals. "

[Guest]

Post 109:<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->69.8 per cent of Brahmins and OUC never went past the 12th standard<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->How come nearly 70% of Brahmanas can't even go to college?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I don't know about the accuracy of the percentage. But the poverty of some brahmanas in South India has to be seen to be believed. Missionaries no doubt wanted this, as they figured that extreme poverty might be the means by which they could try and convert brahmanas. They've brought Hindus in general to poverty, and have caused brahmanas to be held in contempt and through causing the creation of DMK etc which made laws to strip brahmanas of the few properties and means of livehood they had. In spite of having brought it to this state, missionaries are now realising that even extremely poor and underfed brahmanas are completely unwilling to convert. Perhaps the evangelicals are rolling up their sleeves to implement the Final Solution as the their mouthpieces in the radical dravidian and dalitist parties often indicate.

But just because they are poor doesn't mean they are not clever enough to get into college, as their parents generally ensure the children learn everything they know about the sciences and mathematics. For children of brahmanas to get entry into college in the South is difficult, because some political groups imagine South Indians are 'Dravidians' as opposed to Indians and that they were oppressed long ago by 'aryan' 'brahminists'. (AIT and missionary inventions are to blame in other words)

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->G. Subramaniam said the average Brahmana IQ is 115+.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->The IQ appears to be just an example case G.S came up with. But I do want to talk about the whole IQ thing, since the topic has been broached here. See next post.

[Guest]

EDIT: wrote a lot on IQ here but a new member called Soka Norman (don't know who that is) brought it to my attention that the Wikipedia link I gave, which I mainly used for the normal distribution graph on Asian IQ, contained text stating that:
- avg IQ of Indians is around 80
- avg IQ of eastern Asians (Chinese and Japanese) is in the 107 or 110, I think.

I had initially written that I had read (in a Chinese forum where the medium was English) that Chinese and Indian IQs were around 110, possibly +1 for Chinese.

But since I cannot find that site again to prove what I stated, and since I have instead only found many sites repeating that the avg IQ of Indians is around 80 (similar to Africa and perhaps other Asian countries outside of Eastern Asia), I have removed what I wrote here. Sorry to have bothered anyone into reading it. Undo, undo, undo.

[The sd that I had initially given, of +-5 was wholly an invention - but I had indicated that already in the old version of this post]

I'll still be looking around for the Chinese thread. If I find it, I will put my old post back up here.
Meanwhile, here is one sample of the opposing results that I did find, about the Indian avg IQ of 80 and China's 110. (The other pages I found all discuss <i>race</i> and IQ which is not what I wanted.)

This means that during the next few generations India should focus on trying to get to an average of 100 since it would be useful for competing at the international level.

Also, at this site there is a small mention of Indians in Britain briefly comparing them to Pakistani and Bangla immigrants there. (The discussion following that however, quickly degenerates into race-related stuff.) The article does indicate that IQs can increase with exposure to the kind of education whose influences can be measured with IQ tests.

[Guest]

Interesting discussion between Benjamin and SRK here..

http://www.sunyaprajna.com/Worldview/SRKco...nBrahmins&Caste

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-Husky+Jun 26 2006, 11:12 AM-->QUOTE(Husky @ Jun 26 2006, 11:12 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Brahmins are the glue that binds Bharat.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->All Hindus (and those Indians of other life-systems that are equally accepting of others) altogether are the glue that binds Bharat.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

There is a problem with this logic. A table needs wood, formica, glue, nails, color and perhaps many more things. Why do we need everybody to be a glue ? We wont have a table. We will just have a whole lot of... glue. <!--emo&:blink:--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/blink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='blink.gif' /><!--endemo-->

[Guest]

Post 119:
I meant that all positions within the traditional Indian society contributed to keep it running. Perhaps glue was the wrong word. What the faithful claim about the koran as supposedly being a 'seamless garment' might be more applicable here. Indian society was dependent on the functions its people fulfilled: various arts, crafts, philosophers, traders, manufacturing industries, agricultural and other labourers, brahmanas in the temples, teachers, soldiers, rulers and policy-makers. All of them were necessary to keep the nation running. To pull out one of these 'threads' is to make the garment fall apart.

I merely meant to say that having only the Brahmana position filled is not going to protect the nation or produce the food required for an expanding population, nor is it going to make the goods required for daily use. The same holds for all the other positions: none can support a society by itself.
They'll specialise again to ensure the country can be kept running and to make sure that all the necessary functions of a whole nation are fulfilled.

If all the people in my grandfather's village had been teachers, where would the food have come from? Where would the people maintaining the village temple have come from? He taught people in order for them to become educated (and pass the teaching on to their descendants), as well as for them to be able to support their families and in this way contribute to support their nation.